The Bradman effect on bowlers' averages

[The Outsider]

List of 10 bowlers overall averages and their averages in matches not including Bradman. Clearly shows how Bradman was responsible in pushing up their averages higher than where they would have been had they bowled to your regular batsmen, instead of Bradman. 1. Bedser Career : 24.9 Without Bradman : 21.3 2. Larwood Career : 28.4 Without Bradman : 23.2 3. Voce Career : 27.9 Without Bradman : 28.1 4. Verity Career : 24.4 Without Bradman : 22.4 5. Mankad Career : 32.3 Without Bradman : 30.7 6. Constantine Career : 30.1 Without Bradman : 26.8 7. Allen Career : 29.4 Without Bradman : 21.9 8. Tate Career : 26.1 Without Bradman : 22.9 9. Bowes Career : 22.3 Without Bradman : 20.5 10. Quinn Career : 32.7 Without Bradman : 28.8 Superb bowlers, by acknowledgment of those who watched and followed them, had their career figures mangled by 3-4 points or more just because they had to bowl to Bradman.

[S.Bond]

Great work! Interesting stat.

[teacup]

Can you provide the source for the player vs player data you would have used to do this analysis?

[The Outsider]

It's not a player vs. player data - it's their overall bowling averages compared to their bowling averages in tests where Bradman was not in their opposition. You can get it from cricinfo statsguru.

[thevortex]

Outsider - why are you doing this?! Next thing we are going to see a list of bowlers with their averages in their teens when they dont bowl to Sachin Tendulkar! Statistics is this giant beanbag. All it needs is a body and that is the shape it will take - more or less. Its up to us whether we want to lie there or just invest in a good sofa or comfy chair :).

[Lurker]

उसने तो खैर अपनों से मोड़ा था मुहं मजाज़ मैंने ये क्या किया के मैं गैरों से जा मिला?? Interesting stat nontheless, by all accounts many of these bowlers would have made BB's all time stats-based-XI, had it not been for that scoundrel DB.

[Sachinism]

Neither side is not going to budge, its a pointless argument now

[vroomfondel]

Shwetabh, non-Bradman teams are mostly minnows, correct? (except for the occasional Australian team without Bradman)

[teacup]

It's not a player vs. player data - it's their overall bowling averages compared to their bowling averages in tests where Bradman was not in their opposition. You can get it from cricinfo statsguru.

If it is not player vs player data then I don't know how you can arrive at the conclusion that Bradman was the reason for their mediocre averages. Let's take the case of Larwood, if you do not include Bradman there are only 4 matches in which he has played against Australia. And, this is how he has performed against them: 1926: 2 matches - Avg: 28 1928/29: 1 match - Avg: 45.50 1932/33: 1 match - Avg: 12.40 (Bodyline series) So, except for the Bodyline series, Larwood was a mediocre bowler. No two ways about it.

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[teacup]

Well, at least this thread will have a quick death.

[Lurker]

So, except for the Bodyline series, Larwood was a mediocre bowler. No two ways about it.

Man it has ceased to amaze me how silly/fickle today's cricket fans are??? You have no idea about Larwood, heck by all means if I shut down Cricinfo today you will potentially have no idea about most cricket players as your brain shall stop functioning, and still claim with absolute certainty about Larwood and his position in all time greats! Do you realize that Harold Larwood was picked by almost all the greats of yesteryears as the best fast bowler? This included Ray Lindwall, an Aussie at that, who(Lindwall) many Aussie experts still beleive was the best ever. How good was Lindwall?? Quick reach for Cricinfo, search for Ray Lindwall, look at his stats, strike rate, performance at 3 pm on 4th day of 5th test in 7th series. Morons! xxx

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[Lurker]

Lurker mian the problem here is that none of your own gang members will take Bradmans own words on Tendulkar.... and Iam pretty sure he didnt go by statsguru ... And this was from a guy who rarely gave any interviews let alone invite players to his house.

What exactly were Bradman's words?? Something to the affect of - this little fella bats like me. Fair enough. Thats a good compliment, does not mean anything less..or more. On the other hand when Sachin clearly says Bradman should be left alone as he was in his own league, pujaris like you have to start raising suspicions as to why Sachin is being PC and all that jazz. The problem is not between Sachin and DB it has always been with fans like you. :winky:

[zen]

good work with the stats!

[The Outsider]

Shwetabh' date=' non-Bradman teams are mostly minnows, correct? (except for the occasional Australian team without Bradman)[/quote'] Bade din baad darshan diye, sir jee! If you look at the list of the bowlers, 3 are from "minnows" anyways - Mankad, Constantine, and Quinn. Bowes, Bedser, Tate, and Verity have superb averages anyways. Bedser played a lot of cricket, so I am sure he played a significant amount after Bradman's retirement as well. From memory, Larwood destroyed a Bradman less Australia in the first Bodyline test so couldn't have had a terrible record. Moreover, he is acknowledged by many to have been one of the best bowlers ever, whose career was more harmed by Bodyline than anyone else. Voce's average does not change much in the two situations. So who is left, Allen? It's possible he benefited from bowling to the "minnows" - perhaps someone can check up the stats. Also, as a slight aside the "minnows" were not really Bangladesh level teams - they were more along the lines of present day Pakistan, New Zealand, and West Indies. For example, India had the likes of Mankad, Hazare, Merchant. West Indies had Headley, Constantine. Some pretty good universally acknowledged players.

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[teacup]

Man it has ceased to amaze me how silly/fickle today's cricket fans are??? You have no idea about Larwood, heck by all means if I shut down Cricinfo today you will potentially have no idea about most cricket players as your brain shall stop functioning, and still claim with absolute certainty about Larwood and his position in all time greats! Do you realize that Harold Larwood was picked by almost all the greats of yesteryears as the best fast bowler? This included Ray Lindwall, an Aussie at that, who(Lindwall) many Aussie experts still beleive was the best ever. How good was Lindwall?? Quick reach for Cricinfo, search for Ray Lindwall, look at his stats, strike rate, performance at 3 pm on 4th day of 5th test in 7th series. Morons! xxx

Larwood averaged 40.90 against Australia if you exclude the Bodyline series. I have shown already that his average is no better without Bradman. His reputation is solely based on the Bodyline series and absolutely no one today would have remembered him otherwise. Bradman himself considered Ken Farnes a better bowler than him. I don't like to indulge in cheap name calling to get back at you but I sincerely hope better sense prevails next time. If you cannot, there is always an asylum somewhere nearby where you can check-in.