Is IPL one of the reasons for India's dismal performance in World T20, 2010?

[Precambrian]

Not trying to shift any goal posts about anything?? just my opinions. I DO THINK that IPL immediately BEFORE a World Cup event HURTS INDIAN Cricket END OF..

Not trying to shift any goal posts about anything?? just my opinions. I DO THINK that IPL immediately BEFORE a World Cup event HURTS INDIAN Cricket END OF..

Fair enough. They could've preponed IPL by atleast a week, and postponed selections by a week, Heck, they could've atleast made selections based on IPL performances. Unlike in test cricket and to some extent in one day cricket, class is useless without form in t20. Almost everyone who were in consistent good form in IPL replicated that in world Cup also. It's just that our selectors didn't give that a damn and went ahead with fantasies of their own that these chaps would somehow find top form in matter of days against much tougher opposition than they had in IPL. Well good luck to India's future in t20s with such moron selectors.

[SJS50]

This whole debate (what precedes this post) is very interesting - almost entertaining I would say. It reminds me of a friend whose marriage ended in a bitter divorce. After the long protracted and highly emotional (read abusive) legal battle the wife got the custody of the kids. After that it was a constant fight about who was the right person to have brought up the kids and how the kids and their future would be messed up by the wrong parent bringing them up. After many years, one of the kids, sadly got involved in drugs and even more serious stuff. Out came the knives (never were sheathed anyway) from all and sundry. The father, the mother, the maternal grand parents, the paternal grand parents all started throwing abuse at each other to prove who was responsible for the sorry state of affairs. The interesting (and amusing) thing about the whole affair was that everyone of them was right to an extent. They all pointed out to incidents involving one or the other amongst the "opposition Party" to prove their point. Invariably the incident was right. The opposition did the same - pointing to other incidents involving some one from the other side - and they were right to. The shouting and blaming game has continued till date. Everyone was right, everyone was screaming and the poor kid and his sorry young life was completely no ones concern. Now what was the amusing bit? To me the whole thing was funny (and so similar to what is going on here) is that while each was right in pointing out the incidents 'proving' the culpability of the other side, they then went on to use this to proclaim that "this proved that the other side was 'one hundred percent responsible for everything', and all it said was wrong" They were all right in the little bits they pointed out BUT they were all responsible for the mess - individually and together. The responsibility of one did not automatically exonerate those on the other side. Its like the falling out of thieves. They had ALL contributed to the unholy mess and now that the sh** had hit the ceiling they were just using the historical 'pick-and-chose' devise to score points. Yes IPL is partly to blame for what happened in the Windies . . . . but that can never explain entirely India's debacle. Yes Dhoni is right in pointing out to the "other stuff" that happened during IPL . . . but that can never explain why Indian batsmen failed to play the rising ball. Yes it is right that India lacks fast and bouncy wickets . . . but that alone does not explain why some batsmen have better technique than others to play the short stuff. Yes Gavaskar and Shastri were on the GC of IPL as pure decoration (and probably because they were least likely to raise a ruckus anyway for various reasons) but that alone does not explain why so many have suddenly discovered what was going on - not allegedly but really going on. There are enough people in the establishment and amongst the vested interests starting from Modi, Pawar, the entire set up of IPCL, the vested interests amongst former players, commentators, media etc clambering aboard one boat or the other as they ditch the other apparently sinking one to try and be seen on the right side for the fans also to make such 'ignorant fools' of themselves by being so easily taken in by the shenanigans of all of them. By choosing sides on who is to blame we are doing axactly what everyone hopes we will - show ourselves to be incapable of grabbing the issue by its ba*** and not letting go. Unless you realise that almost all those you are talking in favour of or opposing have a role to play in this, they will get away. The fans in India have shown themselves to be very fickle, very easily - and willingly - mis-led and with a very short memory span in anyway. This is what they are counting on before they go back to business as usual. So remember almost all of them are right when they are pointing the fingers at others and almost all of them are wrong while trying to use this finger to absolve themselves of any blame.

[The Outsider]

Yes IPL is partly to blame for what happened in the Windies . . . . but that can never explain entirely India's debacle. Yes Dhoni is right in pointing out to the "other stuff" that happened during IPL . . . but that can never explain why Indian batsmen failed to play the rising ball.

That is all I, or at the risk of speaking for others on this thread who are blaming IPL, am saying - a six week carnival with little emphasis on quality cricket, it's associated traveling, parties, and fatigue sandwiched between international fixtures, cannot be exonerated from pulling Indian cricket one more step down. Nowhere have I said that the IPL is the only reason for our poor show, so your making me one of the parties in the divorce is intrinsically unfair.

[SJS50]

That is all I' date=' or at the risk of speaking for others on this thread who are blaming IPL, am saying - a six week carnival with little emphasis on quality cricket, it's associated traveling, parties, and fatigue sandwiched between international fixtures, cannot be exonerated from pulling Indian cricket one more step down. Nowhere have I said that the IPL is the only reason for our poor show, so your making me one of the parties in the divorce is intrinsically unfair.[/quote'] :-) My post was never meant to be aimed at any single individual so I refuse to get involved in answering you (or anyone else) in this manner. :-) I do understand what you are saying. My point remains however that when a wrong is pointed out to us, and when the wrong is serious enough, we need to think ten times before offering a counter point (even when right) for the impression that then pervades the debate (and certainly how it is perceived by the one you are debating) that what is being offered is a 'justification'. It happens in so many cases in even more serious matters than cricket and ends up completely counter productive. If you and I were discussing what ails Indian cricket and I made a couple of relevant points and you made another couple completely different ones, equally relevant - this should not push us to two opposing sides of the debate. That is ridiculous. Both of us are and should remain on the same side which is saying that "definitely things are wrong with Indian cricket and here are some examples of it". The fact that our discussion has led to the number of such examples to increase from two to four for each of us does not and should not drive up to opposing camps. The fact that it does seems to indicate that we perceive each other as being on the other side. I hope I am not as vague as i fear I sound :-)

[lion]

No.IPL is not hurting indian players.All country players are taking part in IPL.But they look fresh and good.For example: Dirk Nannes also play in IPL.But he is the leading wicket taker in T20 World cup.Now what you gonna say???B->

[Tapioca]

Now what you gonna say???

That you better read the whole thread before posting

[ZodiaC]

Top performers in WC T20 - Nannes, Jayawardane, Gayle, Langevelt, Steyn, Mathews, Pietersen, Tait, Warner, Watson, Kallis - haven't they all played IPL? How does this 'fatigue' only affect the Indian players? And now blaming it on travels, and IPL won't help really.. Kevin pietersen flew back from england without showing any signs of Jet lags..

[thevortex]

ZodiaC - the players that you mention actually do well on bouncy pitches. To them it is more like their home ground than for us. With the exception of Jayawardene and he is certainly better than many of the Indians with the shorter delivery - at least with intent. So there is an intrinsic point about why these players are successful. They did not need practice games to come to terms with disconcerting bounce. We might have done better, arguably. :)

[Precambrian]

Excellent post SJS. Can't see anything I can't agree. @Outsider, Go on repeating the same thing again and again, I cannot answer the same **** thousand times.

[The Outsider]

Excellent post SJS. Can't see anything I can't agree. @Outsider, Go on repeating the same thing again and again, I cannot answer the same **** thousand times.

So...you agree IPL is partly responsible? Wonder why you wouldn't admit to it earlier instead of resorting to baloney like India does not play between June and September and Harris and Malinga are test regulars. Thanks for wasting my time. Will know better next time.

[Mr. Wicket]

Now what you gonna say???

That you better read the whole thread before posting

:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:

[Precambrian]

So...you agree IPL is partly responsible? Wonder why you wouldn't admit to it earlier instead of resorting to baloney like India does not play between June and September and Harris and Malinga are test regulars. Thanks for wasting my time. Will know better next time.

Who said IPL is perfect? Don't put words into my mouth. Quote me instances when we've played tests in that season, other than while touring Sl or Eng? Show me when we have played at home? I still stand by that relatively that used to be our rest period. Malinga and Harris ARE first choice selections when available. What about your own gems like Sehwag is undroppcable in t20s? Or the tripe that IPL is exhausting more than Int cricket? Or the stupid allegation that Indians are most overworked? When I proved Watson has put in more days of cricket, you were resorting to laughable excuses like he is in his prime etc blah. No answer when asked about Hussey then. What about those shadow boxing about resting players for Zim series, and guys playing in county cricket, when I showed how much more overworked Raina is playing the Zim series. Then you resort to injury management and IPL. Bcci's care of players is limited to the benefits they accrue from them. If some player is playing in IPL, then Bcci indirectly atleast gains out of it. What about county cricket? No. Further, Bcci has said no only to contracted players which means they've all been employed full time, no need to do additional non Bcci work. If players want to improve their technique they can use facilities at NCA, they say. I don't agree with them. But I don't agree with you it has got anything to do with fatigue. You are simply shifting goalposts that you don't even remember where you started or what's your original argument anymore.

[The Outsider]

Who said IPL is perfect? Don't put words into my mouth.

SJS said IPL is one of the reasons for the poor performance of the Indian team, which is has been my point as well. You said you agreed with everything he said in his post. You cannot both agree completely with his post and at the same time say IPL did not play a part in our poor performance. Logic 101.

Quote me instances when we've played tests in that season, other than while touring Sl or Eng? Show me when we have played at home? I still stand by that relatively that used to be our rest period.

I already have, if you take your head out of the sand and read. 2006 - Played in West Indies 2007 - Played in England and Bangladesh 2008 - Played in Sri Lanka 2009 - Did not play 2010 - Due to play in Sri Lanka 2011 - Due to play in West Indies and England What does playing at home anything to do with the issue?

Malinga and Harris ARE first choice selections when available.

Malinga hasn't played a test for two and a half years. Harris has played 2 tests in his entire carer as injury replacement. :hysterical:

What about your own gems like Sehwag is undroppcable in t20s?

Sehwag is undroppable in any cricket. If you think otherwise, name a better replacement opening batsman.

Or the tripe that IPL is exhausting more than Int cricket?

Please quote where I said that.

Or the stupid allegation that Indians are most overworked? When I proved Watson has put in more days of cricket, you were resorting to laughable excuses like he is in his prime etc blah. No answer when asked about Hussey then.

They are. Giving a counter example of a Watson or a Hussey does not change the fact.

What about those shadow boxing about resting players for Zim series, and guys playing in county cricket, when I showed how much more overworked Raina is playing the Zim series. Then you resort to injury management and IPL. Bcci's care of players is limited to the benefits they accrue from them. If some player is playing in IPL, then Bcci indirectly atleast gains out of it. What about county cricket? No.

So it's all about the money from the IPL for the BCCI, not about allowing the players to develop their skills in different conditions - thanks for agreeing with my assertion.

Further, Bcci has said no only to contracted players which means they've all been employed full time, no need to do additional non Bcci work. If players want to improve their technique they can use facilities at NCA, they say. I don't agree with them. But I don't agree with you it has got anything to do with fatigue. You are simply shifting goalposts that you don't even remember where you started or what's your original argument anymore.

Yeah, you are some physio of the Indian team who knows their fatigue factor when the BCCI has clearly said that the reason for not selecting them for the tri series or allowing them in county cricket is fatigue and avoid them from being overworked. Give me one good reason to believe you over the official BCCI line on this? How are you in a better position to judge? You might find a match between Chennai Super Kings and Mumbai Indians to be higher on your priority than an official India - Sri Lanka ODI, I certainly don't! I'll make this really simple for you - do you think IPL was one of the factors in our poor performance in the T20WC. Just a simple yes or no will be good? Anything more seems to confuse the hell out of you.

[ZodiaC]

ZodiaC - the players that you mention actually do well on bouncy pitches. To them it is more like their home ground than for us. With the exception of Jayawardene and he is certainly better than many of the Indians with the shorter delivery - at least with intent. So there is an intrinsic point about why these players are successful. They did not need practice games to come to terms with disconcerting bounce. We might have done better, arguably. :)

Dude, I'm not talking about IPL draining players out, not abouyt their talents. Again whose mistake is it if can only play well in flat dead surfaces?

[thevortex]

Dude' date=' I'm not talking about IPL draining players out, not abouyt their talents. Again whose mistake is it if can only play well in flat dead surfaces?[/quote'] You continue to miss the point. If the surfaces are different to what these players encounter in the IPL, then it makes sense to complete the tournament in time for the team to have a couple of practice matches at West Indies. The issue here is that. And this scheduling factor also addresses the fact that the players cannot have been fresh after such a hectic travelling and playing schedule.

[Tapioca]

Top performers in WC T20 - Nannes' date= Jayawardane, Gayle, Langevelt, Steyn, Mathews, Pietersen, Tait, Warner, Watson, Kallis - haven't they all played IPL? How does this 'fatigue' only affect the Indian players? And now blaming it on travels, and IPL won't help really.. Kevin pietersen flew back from england without showing any signs of Jet lags..

May be when you put Watson and his gang among 10 fresh players, the recent activity in IPL actually helps these four to improve their performance. But when you put 14 people, all with creaking joints, together, each one pull the others down ? I don't know. Just a hypothesis.

[Temujin Khaghan]

"The players go to such parties because they are organised. The players should not have gone there. I am totally against it. Sehwag stays away from women and is happy with his family." Virender Sehwag's mother, Krishna, on the lessons to be learnt from the IPL ==================== lol

[someone]

You continue to miss the point. If the surfaces are different to what these players encounter in the IPL, then it makes sense to complete the tournament in time for the team to have a couple of practice matches at West Indies. The issue here is that. And this scheduling factor also addresses the fact that the players cannot have been fresh after such a hectic travelling and playing schedule.

It is not like practise matches would have changed the fortune of team, even if the indian team do not have any formal practise matches, they can or must have played some informal ones while in training. And how did you judge the tiredness? Did the players show a lack of commitment due to tiredness, I do not think so. they still carried the same problem from IPL, short pitch deliveries, where IPL should have provided them a platform to practice against them with quality overseas bowlers, our indian batsman still did not learn. If there is anything we should do is praise IPL for giving an opportunity for our batsman to play against the quality bowlers which should have helped to resolve their short pitch deliveries problems and also a chance to test new strategies against different players. And is there a law that without IPL, our players would have learned to play the short pitch deliveries and perhaps even be more tactically sound that u keep blaming IPL. I just do not think so.

[Precambrian]

SJS said IPL is one of the reasons for the poor performance of the Indian team' date=' which is has been my point as well. You said you agreed with everything he said in his post. You cannot both agree completely with his post and at the same time say IPL did not play a part in our poor performance. Logic 101.[/quote'] Really pathetic. Where have I said IPL can be the ONLY reason for our defeat. I already have, if you take your head out of the sand and read.

2006 - Played in West Indies 2007 - Played in England and Bangladesh 2008 - Played in Sri Lanka 2009 - Did not play 2010 - Due to play in Sri Lanka 2011 - Due to play in West Indies and England

:cantstop: Read the post mate. I said excluding touring SL and Eng. Anyway I grant it as I missed out on WI and Ban.

Malinga hasn't played a test for two and a half years. Harris has played 2 tests in his entire carer as injury replacement. :hysterical:

Fair enough. So you have the minor victories.

Sehwag is undroppable in any cricket. If you think otherwise, name a better replacement opening batsman.

Here we go again. Sehwag is overrated in ODIs. You have even the likes of Naman Ojha, Uthappa, etc. You don't need to be a specialist opener to open in T20s. :winky: What is Sehwag's international record in T20s??? :two_thumbs_up:

Please quote where I said that.

Can't be arsed. Go check when you were link whoring to Anil Kumble etc etcwithout context.

They are. Giving a counter example of a Watson or a Hussey does not change the fact.

Oh really??? So you have a definition of so and so days make it tiring for a cricketer? Watson, Hussey have played much more serious cricket than Indian superstars in the last few months including IPL, yet they seem to be firing. Says one and only one thing, they aren;t fatigued. 2 months of ungli danda does not make one tired. Dhoni came up with this : "If you look at it, the two-hour bus ride from the airport was more tiring and difficult for us than the last few weeks of the IPL" MS Dhoni, India's captain, is enjoying the travel in St Lucia

So it's all about the money from the IPL for the BCCI, not about allowing the players to develop their skills in different conditions - thanks for agreeing with my assertion.

You don't necessarily need to play in those countries to succeed there. How come Tendulkar,Dravid,Laxman,Sehwag all have scored in Australia. Did they play in the shield there??? Stupid argument really. They need to counter short deliveries. For that as Gavaskar said, go to NCA and develop the technique. Lol, really clutching to straws like my odd line on Malinga etc...??:giggle:

Yeah, you are some physio of the Indian team who knows their fatigue factor when the BCCI has clearly said that the reason for not selecting them for the tri series or allowing them in county cricket is fatigue and avoid them from being overworked. Give me one good reason to believe you over the official BCCI line on this? How are you in a better position to judge?

Haha link please....

You might find a match between Chennai Super Kings and Mumbai Indians to be higher on your priority than an official India - Sri Lanka ODI, I certainly don't!

Of course. I do. AllT20I internationals are waste of time imho. All non World Cup ODIs too are waste of time. IPL too is a waste of time, but atleast it offers a different type of entertainment. The only matches that matter in cricket for me are tests and WC ODIs. Screw the rest.:finger:

I'll make this really simple for you - do you think IPL was one of the factors in our poor performance in the T20WC. Just a simple yes or no will be good? Anything more seems to confuse the hell out of you.

Don't be stupid. This is not a kintergarten question to merit a yes or no answer. Among many things, IPL may have a minor role. But it is NO WAY the only reason why India lost. I wouldn't even attribute 5% of reason behind India's defeat to IPL

[The Outsider]

Really pathetic. Where have I said IPL can be the ONLY reason for our defeat.

Let me simplify it for you : 1. SJS said that IPL was one of the factors in our poor performance. 2. You agreed completely with his post. 3. You've wasted precious kilobytes and my brain arguing IPL is not a factor in our poor performance. How do you reconcile the above three?

:cantstop: Read the post mate. I said excluding touring SL and Eng. Anyway I grant it as I missed out on WI and Ban.

That's half the test playing nations! :hysterical:

Fair enough. So you have the minor victories.

For major victories look above and below!

Here we go again. Sehwag is overrated in ODIs. You have even the likes of Naman Ojha, Uthappa, etc. You don't need to be a specialist opener to open in T20s. :winky:

Ojha and Flathappa are better T20 players or any players than Sehwag? :hysterical:

What is Sehwag's international record in T20s??? :two_thumbs_up:

Here you go, right up there : http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=3;filter=advanced;orderby=batting_strike_rate;qualmin1=200;qualval1=runs;team=6;template=results;type=batting

Can't be arsed. Go check when you were link whoring to Anil Kumble etc etcwithout context.

Translation, "You never said what I claimed, I was lying".

Oh really??? So you have a definition of so and so days make it tiring for a cricketer? Watson, Hussey have played much more serious cricket than Indian superstars in the last few months including IPL, yet they seem to be firing. Says one and only one thing, they aren;t fatigued. 2 months of ungli danda does not make one tired. Dhoni came up with this :

So what if two cricketers aren't fatigued and firing, two dozen are not firing!

You don't necessarily need to play in those countries to succeed there. How come Tendulkar,Dravid,Laxman,Sehwag all have scored in Australia. Did they play in the shield there??? Stupid argument really. They need to counter short deliveries. For that as Gavaskar said, go to NCA and develop the technique.

Does playing a county season help players in general? Yes or No?

Lol, really clutching to straws like my odd line on Malinga etc...??:giggle:

Your entire argument is full of lies and fabrications just like saying Malinga and Harris are regular test match players and India does not play during June and September.

Haha link please....

Read and weep : http://www.cricinfo.com/countycricket2010/content/story/454048.html http://beta.thehindu.com/sport/cricket/article425621.ece

Of course. I do. AllT20I internationals are waste of time imho. All non World Cup ODIs too are waste of time. IPL too is a waste of time, but atleast it offers a different type of entertainment. The only matches that matter in cricket for me are tests and WC ODIs. Screw the rest.:finger:

Why are you wasting your and my time over a 'waste of time'?

Don't be stupid. This is not a kintergarten question to merit a yes or no answer. Among many things, IPL may have a minor role. But it is NO WAY the only reason why India lost. I wouldn't even attribute 5% of reason behind India's defeat to IPL

It's a simple question and does not need any dilly dallying unless you are trying to squirm out of the corner you've pushed yourself into : Is IPL one of the factors in our poor show in T20 WC? Yes or No? I would also be interested in knowing the statistical analysis you did to come up with the