Cricinfo's All Time Pakistan XI : No current players in Pakistan all-time XI

[S.Bond]

Says who ? Pakistan is a joke of a team. It has never attained no.1 rankings in either test or ODI. And yes you have a better team in having a 4 consecutive whitewash to OZ :haha::hysterical:

I know you are searching for friends as no one on this forum care of your pathetic comments :--D. But sorry it's a NO from me!!!

[SJS50]

This is SJS's pet modus operandi. A slur inserted slyly against anyone with an opinion different from his. Not surprisingly, on the suggestion that Shoaib Akhtar (with a SR of 40 odd) be picked ahead of Fazal Mahmood (SR 70) SJS's disagreement didn't rest upon any argument. Why bother, when it's easier to tar the other person as obsessed with stats and no insight. :hatsoff: Similarly, if anyone sincerely questions the possibility of a Paki ATG side overcoming a corresponding Indian XI, they are obviously guilty of "misplaced nationalistic fervour" In sum, a lot of long winded posts, a lot of sly remarks and when called upon to explain, he's "not here to win an argument". Well played.

Thank you :-) Its very true what you say. 1. My posts are long winded. Its a habit that was imbibed very long ago at school writing very long essays and somehow has stuck. 2. Its also true that writing against nationalistic fervour is one of my favourite topics. I hate misplaced nationalistic fervour and see no difference between it and other such 'fervours' such as the religious kind. I see no difference between religious fanatics, whom everyone loves to denounce, and fanatics who claim patriotism as their unique claim to fame. They are often as misguided and as much removed from objectivity as any other type of fanatics. Just one difference though, I do not chose sides when I write against fanatics :-) 3. I do not shy away from a debate but there are a few differences. Firstly, I am not here for a debate, let alone an argument which is what they always degenerate into. SI am here to talk cricket with cricket lovers, something I have misssed so much since I left Delhi 25 years ago when I was playing the game and spending a lot of time with cricketers and those who were passionately involved with the game. I come here to just say what I think and hear what others say. I do not claim to have a monopoly over knowledge of the game. I have learnt a lot from interacting with people on such fora. On occasions it has made me have a relook at some of my long held views and that has been a real blessing. However a time comes in a discussion when it turns into a debate and then an argument. After that people are just spending hours upon hours rehashing the same points again and again without getting anywhere. These discussions are pointless as far as i am concerned. Clearly some people enjoy them for there are so many of them on such fora that go on for pages. I do not no if the words (and space) used up in those enlightened debates, are worth the server space they occupy to as mine too are not not, perhaps. I do not sly away from these 'discussions' but do try not to get into anything that is going to end up into "lets see who can have the last word on this' type of pages long diatribe. I am too old to find any pleasure in that. If I ask anyone whether they have seen someone play (in this case Fazal Mehmood) it is because it would be interesting to discuss with someone who had. I just saw him in his last series in India in 1961 and I was too young perhaps (and sitting at midwicket/covers stands) to appreciate the great bowler. All I know is from what one has read about the great man. The same is true of most others I was born too late to see in person. Thats why it is such a great pleasure to come across anyone who actually saw any of these greats. I do not lose any opportunity to talk to old cricketers and its always to know of those one did not see. Its the same with cricket books. I have a fairly large cricket library but more than 80 percent of the almost 1000 books are about cricketers I did not see - not written by modern writers but by their contemporaries. How else does one learn of them? If anyone thinks they can learn of old cricketers purely by looking at their stats, good luck to them but I am afraid I have a difference of opinion. I guesss I have a right to it as I have to debate cricket with who I want to and for as long as I wish. Thank you and good bye.

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[Sooda]

^Add to that the fact that Fazal took a a reasonable no of wkts on jute matting wickets...as did Subhash Gupte I think I am right in saying

[Mamu]

Even if you were sitting right next to the sight screen you wouldnt be able to make out much. Atleast not as much as what modern day TV coverage (which is very very invasive thanks to long lenses) shows us. Add to that features like slo-mo , super slow mo , stump cam, etc etc .... there is simply no comparision. This is why the modern day cricket follower (atleast the die hard ones) are very well informed of the nitty-gritty technicalities. Its a great shame that past masters were never captured in such minute detail. Not much we can do about it but in my opinion watching cricket coverage on TV these days gives you a better insight into a players capabilities than when you are at the ground. Plus you cant possibly find anyone who watched Fazal over a good chunk of his career - unlike for Shoaib. Another advantage of TV. But Sarchasm has a very good point and it is grounded more on logic than just stats. The logic goes something like this : Fazal bowled mostly on helpful wickets Shoiab mostly on unhelpful ones . This bit of information is from old timers who never tire of ridiculing current generation using the uncovered pitches+no helmets theory. Inspite of that Shoaib has a fantastically better record than Fazal . Having a strike rate like that ( to go with a avg of 25ish ) is a fantastic achievement. Yes he has a bit of a reputation of the wrong kind and there isnt a controversy that he was not involved in. If you want to disqualify him on those grounds that would be very valid.

Personal Opinion -- Shoaib did get a lot of wickets -- by 'bowling' illegal deliveries. So did Murali. Let me make it clear -- so did many others, but these two got a lot more than others. Having said this -- this is by no means a favor to Fazal. Fazal will fall into the categories of Lillee and Ambrose-- people who I did not follow much to make a comment about.

[Mamu]

^Add to that the fact that Fazal took a a reasonable no of wkts on jute matting wickets...as did Subhash Gupte I think I am right in saying

I am not sure what are you trying to imply here. Matting wickets help the bowlers or they don't ? Personal Opinion -- Matting wickets help neither the batsmen nor the bowlers. Pacers definitely do not get the movement off the wicket , and if they do -- it is very very predictable. Spinners are very very predictable on matting wickets. And batsmen master how to play spinners and pacers on matting wickets and when they come out of it to play on normal surface --they have no clue how to tackle deliveries. BTW: Matting wickets are the #1 reason why they do not produce International Cricketers in Orissa(where I grew up playing), Assam, Bengal and large part of East Zone. -- because most club cricket is played(at least used to be) on matting wickets. This is also a big reason -- why 80% of cricketers playing for India come from 5 metros (Bombay, Delhi, Hyderabad, Bangalore and Chennai) and the odd one from Haryana and Punjab. Of course this is all changing now, but I am talking about players till 1995/1996.

[Lurker]

Even if you were sitting right next to the sight screen you wouldnt be able to make out much. Atleast not as much as what modern day TV coverage (which is very very invasive thanks to long lenses) shows us. Add to that features like slo-mo ' date=' super slow mo , stump cam, etc etc .... there is simply no comparision. [b']This is why the modern day cricket follower (atleast the die hard ones) are very well informed of the nitty-gritty technicalities. Its a great shame that past masters were never captured in such minute detail. Not much we can do about it but in my opinion watching cricket coverage on TV these days gives you a better insight into a players capabilities than when you are at the ground. Plus you cant possibly find anyone who watched Fazal over a good chunk of his career - unlike for Shoaib. Another advantage of TV. But Sarchasm has a very good point and it is grounded more on logic than just stats. The logic goes something like this : Fazal bowled mostly on helpful wickets Shoiab mostly on unhelpful ones . This bit of information is from old timers who never tire of ridiculing current generation using the uncovered pitches+no helmets theory. Inspite of that Shoaib has a fantastically better record than Fazal . Having a strike rate like that ( to go with a avg of 25ish ) is a fantastic achievement. Yes he has a bit of a reputation of the wrong kind and there isnt a controversy that he was not involved in. If you want to disqualify him on those grounds that would be very valid.

:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical: I rarely use the word thats oft used by teenage girls, but here goes - Whatever :winky:

[Lurker]

^Add to that the fact that Fazal took a a reasonable no of wkts on jute matting wickets...as did Subhash Gupte I think I am right in saying

And? You mean to suggest that when Fazal Mehmood came on to bowl a new track was laid down for him?? Would you want to see how Indian speedsters did on matting wicket? For that matter would you like to see other countries performed on matting wicket? In the era that he played Fazal Mehmood's record should put him at the very top. Simple fact of the matter is Fazal Mehmood won more Test matches for his country in the formative years, specially away from home, than entire Indian team did in the first 3-4 decades of its existence, and thats as telling a story as one can ever see. Taking nothing away from Shoaib who was devastating at his best, Fazal Mehmood would hve been my pick too. xxx

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[Sooda]

I am not sure what are you trying to imply here. Matting wickets help the bowlers or they don't ? Personal Opinion -- Matting wickets help neither the batsmen nor the bowlers. Pacers definitely do not get the movement off the wicket , and if they do -- it is very very predictable. Spinners are very very predictable on matting wickets. And batsmen master how to play spinners and pacers on matting wickets and when they come out of it to play on normal surface --they have no clue how to tackle deliveries. BTW: Matting wickets are the #1 reason why they do not produce International Cricketers in Orissa(where I grew up playing), Assam, Bengal and large part of East Zone. -- because most club cricket is played(at least used to be) on matting wickets. This is also a big reason -- why 80% of cricketers playing for India come from 5 metros (Bombay, Delhi, Hyderabad, Bangalore and Chennai) and the odd one from Haryana and Punjab. Of course this is all changing now, but I am talking about players till 1995/1996.

Ok.. I thought they HELPED bowlers.. particularly one like Fazal who relied on leg and off cutters alot for his wickets

[riya]

Hmm....so Fazal got a helpful ''era'',on the otherhand Shoaib wouldn't have allowed to bowl in that era due to lack of technologies to analyse hyperextension.So every era has its advantage and disadvantage.

[Hur Rizvi]

This is why Pak has never won a series in OZ' date=' SA,WI.[/quote'] Beta How many series has india won in OZ,SA and WI Pakistan has best record among asian teams in SA they are the only team which has drawn the series there in 1998

[Hur Rizvi]

All time eleven Indian batting slightly better than Pakistan Pakistan bowling miles ahead of india even today when Pakistan cricket is struggling Imran khan slightly better than kapil dev Spinners ...Equal On the whole Pakistan All time Xi >Indian All time XI

[Mamu]

All time eleven Indian batting slightly better than Pakistan Pakistan bowling miles ahead of india even today when Pakistan cricket is struggling Imran khan slightly better than kapil dev Spinners ...Equal On the whole Pakistan All time Xi >Indian All time XI

That is like saying Bradman is slightly better than Inzi. There is Indian Batting, then there iis day light, then there is another day, then there is another day light, then there is Paki Batting. The fact the best batsman out of Pakistan Averages 45 outside of Pakistan -- tells the tale.

[Mamu]

Beta How many series has india won in OZ,SA and WI

Definitely far more than Pak has. Moreover -- India has defintely competed against them far more on equal footing than Pakistan ever has.

[UmarAkmal]

That is like saying Bradman is slightly better than Inzi. There is Indian Batting, then there iis day light, then there is another day, then there is another day light, then there is Paki Batting. The fact the best batsman out of Pakistan Averages 45 outside of Pakistan -- tells the tale.

That argument is true comparing Pakistan bowling with India. Pakistan have produced great batsmen averaging in 50s like Tendulkar,Dravid & Gavaskar so he was right that Indian batting is only slightly better. India has yet to produced to bowler who averaged below 25 like Asif,2 W's & Imran.

[Hur Rizvi]

That is like saying Bradman is slightly better than Inzi. There is Indian Batting, then there iis day light, then there is another day, then there is another day light, then there is Paki Batting. The fact the best batsman out of Pakistan Averages 45 outside of Pakistan -- tells the tale.

We are talking about all time eleven not comparing Indian XI of 2010 wid PAkistan XI of 2010 In all time eleven Although indian batting is better But Pakistan are not much behind wid likes of Hanif mohammad , Inzamam , JAved miandad Saeed Anwar .... There is not a big difference ... Bowling ...Yes India's bowling is Pathetic compared to Pakistan..... All rounder...Imran khan is ahead of kapil although both are greats of the game Pakistan's All time eleven is better than indias And I think this is the reason why Pakistan has such a superior record against india in both tests and odis both home and away...

[Lord]

We are talking about all time eleven not comparing Indian XI of 2010 wid PAkistan XI of 2010 In all time eleven Although indian batting is better But Pakistan are not much behind wid likes of Hanif mohammad , Inzamam , JAved miandad Saeed Anwar .... There is not a big difference ... Bowling ...Yes India's bowling is Pathetic compared to Pakistan..... All rounder...Imran khan is ahead of kapil although both are greats of the game Pakistan's All time eleven is better than indias And I think this is the reason why Pakistan has such a superior record against india in both tests and odis both home and away...

lol how much Inzi averages in Aus?:cantstop: n Anwar,u must be kidding.his test average is 45. bowling yes Pakistan has had better fast bowlers,but we had better spinners.

[Cricket_Guru]

here comes the same debate again, even in this forum, why dont we admit the facts, pakistan had better of india untill 2005, but since then india (if not against pakistan) has gone much better side, and a side which can challenge any team in the world, where as pakistan because of there problems (nott playing at home) they have struggled big time but have hopes in umar akmal, aamer, fawad, afridi.

[Sir john]

All time eleven Imran khan slightly better than kapil dev Spinners ...Equal On the whole Pakistan All time Xi >Indian All time XI

no way,kapil is equal to imran khan india all time always 1.5 times to pak all times,:eyedance: