What should be the playing combination of Indian XI on subcontinental featherbeds?

[thevortex]

Oops - my mistake! :)

[Mr. Wicket]

Hey, it happens. :) Enjoying the debates/discussions here. Good to see some intelligent and well reasoned discussions (even if I completely disagree with your point of view :P) on here after a while!

[The Outsider]

Australia never did need 5 bowlers. I have gone through this in another thread. That is because they had 4 phenomenal bowlers. Your comparison on that front is not going to work.

Even when McGrath and Warne were not playing, they never went in with 5 bowlers and asked Gilchrist to bat in the top 6.

And I simply mentioned this point to show that Gilchrist did bat at No.6. And nobody is going to deny that he could not bat at No.6. Or will you contest that point?

Yeah, he batted at number 6 to increase the run rate. Something Dhoni has also done on occasions, not as part of playing one less batsman. And even if Gilchrist was capable of batting in the top 6, Dhoni most certainly is not. At least on the evidence till date.

Not at all. I have never fallen head over heels for Gambhir. As an opener I have not really had the greatest appreciation of his methods. But he is a gritty hard worker. And a team man. It is not about Vijay being equivalent or not.

Of course, it is about that. If you think having Vijay in place of Gambhir is already weakening your batting line up, why would you weaken it further by playing one batsman less?

Dhoni IS India's all rounder. India's only all rounder. There is no use denying that. Show me one all rounder out of your list whose average is close to Dhoni's. And no - this partitioning into various countries, lets lay it off for another day and another thread. You already know that we agree about Dhoni's batting capability. However that does not change the fact that for this Indian team he has to bat at No.6 and take up the all rounder's spot. And no, there is not even a hint of a choice regarding this matter.

Again, I reiterate. Dhoni is not an all rounder. Unless you can show me proof that he would make the top 6 of a strong batting line up on his batting abilities, there is no merit in shouting, 'Dhoni is an all rounder'. I've already given you reasons : 1. Would not make the top 6 of India, Australia, South Africa, England, and Sri Lanka. 2. Averages 20 in 4 out of 8 countries.

If 'ifs and buts were pots and pans'......Forget it. We dont have those all rounders. Dhoni is our all rounder. I am sure many would argue about how he is good enough to do the job. Take any of his competitors and compare their averages across various forms of the game. I think Dhoni's statistics stand out.

Absurd. Because we don't have all rounders, does not make someone an all rounder. A player is an all rounder if he is an all rounder on merit, not because there are no other all rounders in the side. Simple. Prove to me that Dhoni is a good enough batsman to be in the top 6 of strong batting line ups in the world, and I'll accept he is an all rounder.

Now you know that we both agree as far as the estimation of Dhoni's batting is concerned. Which brings me back to the pivotal question. Do you think India can afford to look at just a wicket keeper captain? You think an international team at this stage can look beyond a wicket keeper batsman? That is one all rounder every team MUST have. No ifs and buts there.

He already is a wicketkeeper-batsman. Being a wicketkeeper-batsman is not the same as being an all rounder.

Regardless - that list should give you a starting point as to the various people who have indulged in 'lunacy' :).

Huh? I just showed you that none of the players you listed qualify and you are talking of 'starting points'. Time for you to go back to the drawing board.

Outsider - I am sorry, you asked for it! Even Bradman did not make 100 runs per match!! :)

80-100 runs per match (assuming two innings) is an average of 40-50.

And there is no saying that Munaf or Mishra will not pick a fiver! If you absolutely deny that you are saying cricket is an entirely predictable game. And that you have read it like the back of your hand! Is that what you are saying?

It's about probabilities. Even Clarke and North have picked up 6 wicket hauls, but you won't select a team on the basis of that, would you?

Just like you play 7 batsmen? Am sure you have heard of diminishing returns. That is what is happening with the batting.

No, India is not playing 7 batsmen. India is playing 6 batsmen and a wicketkeeper-batsman. Same as all self respecting teams in the world do. Dhoni is not good enough to be a world class specialist batsman. Simple. Proof is in the pudding. An extra couple of wickets would not have done anything for the Sri Lankan score, but the extra batsman has all but saved us from a series loss for now.

[putrevus]

Dhoni is overrated , if anyone thinks he can play as top six batsman should have their heads examined.He is not match winner which everyone in media make him to be, his contributions to team especially overseas are so minimal. His captaincy in this series has shown he is not that great tactician either.

[thevortex]

Lets get to the heart of the matter, Outsider. You are saying a wicket keeper batsman is not an allrounder? Could you clarify or qualify that? An all rounder is somebody who does handle double duty - is good in two disciplines at least. A wicket keeper batsman satisfies that condition and by definition is an all rounder. And I have already said multiple times that I am in agreement with you about Dhoni's batting. But it begs the question does it not? Whether India needs a specialist keeper at this stage? Or would it do better with somebody who can bat in the top 6 as well as keep? Considering that India does not have all that great a pool of conventional all rounders we are going to have to think divergent. That is all. And this should give us a chance to play more bowlers WHEN needed and to attack.

[putrevus]

Lets get to the heart of the matter, Outsider. You are saying a wicket keeper batsman is not an allrounder? Could you clarify or qualify that? An all rounder is somebody who does handle double duty - is good in two disciplines at least. A wicket keeper batsman satisfies that condition and by definition is an all rounder. And I have already said multiple times that I am in agreement with you about Dhoni's batting. But it begs the question does it not? Whether India needs a specialist keeper at this stage? Or would it do better with somebody who can bat in the top 6 as well as keep? Considering that India does not have all that great a pool of conventional all rounders we are going to have to think divergent. That is all. And this should give us a chance to play more bowlers WHEN needed and to attack.

For your theory to come to fruition, Dhoni should play in top 6 , but is he capable of playing in top 6 the answer is no, do we have another wicket keeper who can bat at no 6 the answer again is no.so how will you theory work. Dhoni is best keeper in India who also happens to best batsman among all keepers in India but he is not a top 6 batsman.

[Chandan]

For your theory to come to fruition, Dhoni should play in top 6 , but is he capable of playing in top 6 the answer is no, do we have another wicket keeper who can bat at no 6 the answer again is no.so how will you theory work. Dhoni is best keeper in India who also happens to best batsman among all keepers in India but he is not a top 6 batsman.

Forget batting. Do we even have a keeper who keeps better than Dhoni in India? And the answer is no. Didn't we see what happened with Karthik and Parthiv Patel in 2008 in SL? Dhoni is the best keeper in India right now and he bats a bit too like keepers of every other country do. What is so special here in Dhoni which Haddin or Paine or Prior or Boucher or Prasanna Jayawardene don't have?

[Sooda]

No he's not good enough for the top 6, which is why if we are to play 6 + 5 the '5th' should be an allrounder, so in effect him plus MSD would = a test class lower middle order bat. We do not have such a player. But we dont have anyone good enough with the ball sadly.

[putrevus]

Forget batting. Do we even have a keeper who keeps better than Dhoni in India? And the answer is no. Didn't we see what happened with Karthik and Parthiv Patel in 2008 in SL? Dhoni is the best keeper in India right now and he bats a bit too like keepers of every other country do. What is so special here in Dhoni which Haddin or Paine or Prior or Boucher or Prasanna Jayawardene don't have?

Dhoni has got too much mileage on his hair do and batting style but he is not that great batsman to be linked in Gilly's class. but he is the best wicket keeper batsman we got no denying that.

[thevortex]

Well - as seems customary, I am going to have to disagree :). Dinesh Karthik - on talent - is both a better wicket keeper and a better Test batsman than Dhoni. The problem is - when he gets those chances - he flatters to deceive. And he does that consistently. So there is a problem. By the way, Dinesh Karthik can easily get into the top 6 list. And he does not have a problem playing pace or swing. But execution is quite another. And as we have seen, he manages to fluff the easiest chances often enough to be shocking. In today's times we have to have a wicket keeper batsman who is almost if not actually good enough to play as a batsman. And guys - take some time to think about this. Nowhere have I said that Dhoni has to come in at No.6 in every kind of situation. Where things are tougher for bowlers, where you feel the need for 5 specialist bowlers, then can he not come up? Obviously you wont need 5 specialists in bowler friendly conditions where he may struggle to bat in the top 6. Do consider that.

[putrevus]

Well - as seems customary, I am going to have to disagree :). Dinesh Karthik - on talent - is both a better wicket keeper and a better Test batsman than Dhoni. The problem is - when he gets those chances - he flatters to deceive. And he does that consistently. So there is a problem. By the way, Dinesh Karthik can easily get into the top 6 list. And he does not have a problem playing pace or swing. But execution is quite another. And as we have seen, he manages to fluff the easiest chances often enough to be shocking. In today's times we have to have a wicket keeper batsman who is almost if not actually good enough to play as a batsman. And guys - take some time to think about this. Nowhere have I said that Dhoni has to come in at No.6 in every kind of situation. Where things are tougher for bowlers, where you feel the need for 5 specialist bowlers, then can he not come up? Obviously you wont need 5 specialists in bowler friendly conditions where he may struggle to bat in the top 6. Do consider that.

on talent VVS laxman is far better batsmen than Dravid, even Dravid agrees with that fact.But application wise Dravid is miles ahead of Laxman hence the difference in their stats. Same case is Karthik, when ever he had his chances he screwed up big time ,lack of focus or temperament, he looked so out of sorts he needed to replaced by fricking Partiv Patel.

[ZodiaC]

Same case is Karthik, when ever he had his chances he screwed up big time ,lack of focus or temperament, he looked so out of sorts he needed to replaced by fricking Partiv Patel.

Dhoni lacks temperament big time too.. But I agree, though Kartik may well be a 'better batsman' than Dhoni, application is all that matters.. :--D

[Sooda]

Well - as seems customary, I am going to have to disagree :). Dinesh Karthik - on talent - is both a better wicket keeper and a better Test batsman than Dhoni. The problem is - when he gets those chances - he flatters to deceive. And he does that consistently. So there is a problem. By the way, Dinesh Karthik can easily get into the top 6 list. And he does not have a problem playing pace or swing. But execution is quite another. And as we have seen, he manages to fluff the easiest chances often enough to be shocking. In today's times we have to have a wicket keeper batsman who is almost if not actually good enough to play as a batsman. And guys - take some time to think about this. Nowhere have I said that Dhoni has to come in at No.6 in every kind of situation. Where things are tougher for bowlers, where you feel the need for 5 specialist bowlers, then can he not come up? Obviously you wont need 5 specialists in bowler friendly conditions where he may struggle to bat in the top 6. Do consider that.

If you take today for instance Vortex, MSD did quite well. Had Mishra played we would never have got as far ahead as we have. In the context of the match it may not mean much as it seems to be heading for a draw. Now Ive typed that, I know what youll say :-P that Mish would have taken a wicket or 2 and the target would never have been as big as 640 or whatever Yeeeaaahhhh. Perhaps. But going by how he 'bowled' in the warm up match...!

[putrevus]

If you take today for instance Vortex, MSD did quite well. Had Mishra played we would never have got as far ahead as we have. In the context of the match it may not mean much as it seems to be heading for a draw. Now Ive typed that, I know what youll say :-P that Mish would have taken a wicket or 2 and the target would never have been as big as 640 or whatever Yeeeaaahhhh. Perhaps. But going by how he 'bowled' in the warm up match...!

Next match he is must ohja is total crap should not be anywhere close to the team

[thevortex]

If you take today for instance Vortex, MSD did quite well. Had Mishra played we would never have got as far ahead as we have. In the context of the match it may not mean much as it seems to be heading for a draw. Now Ive typed that, I know what youll say :-P that Mish would have taken a wicket or 2 and the target would never have been as big as 640 or whatever Yeeeaaahhhh. Perhaps. But going by how he 'bowled' in the warm up match...!

True. No point discussing with the advantage of hindsight. This track was deader than a dodo. But in theory if a track was tough for the bowlers I would definitely not shortchange on the bowling and favour the batting. That was the crux of my point. And I wont deny that Mishra was slammed all over the park in the warm-up game. Moreover I dont have as high an estimation of him as a leg spinner as many others here. But its all about using experienced bowlers. There would have always been a chance that he would have picked up wickets. Anyway this run fest of a Test is drawing to a close. Lets see what happens in the next one.

[The Outsider]

Lets get to the heart of the matter, Outsider. You are saying a wicket keeper batsman is not an allrounder? Could you clarify or qualify that? An all rounder is somebody who does handle double duty - is good in two disciplines at least. A wicket keeper batsman satisfies that condition and by definition is an all rounder. And I have already said multiple times that I am in agreement with you about Dhoni's batting. But it begs the question does it not? Whether India needs a specialist keeper at this stage? Or would it do better with somebody who can bat in the top 6 as well as keep? Considering that India does not have all that great a pool of conventional all rounders we are going to have to think divergent. That is all. And this should give us a chance to play more bowlers WHEN needed and to attack.

Exactly. A wicketkeeper-batsman is not an all rounder, unless his batting is good enough to put him in the top 6 of a good batting line up. There is not much of a difference between Dhoni and other wicketkeeper-batsmen around the world today like McCullum and Haddin. Sure, he might be marginally better than them, but not by a huge deal. The only wicketkeeper-batsmen who would qualify as all rounders in recent times would be Gilchrist, Sangakkara(doesn't keep for more than 5 years now though) and Flower. Genuine batsmen who were good enough to bat in the top 6 of a strong batting line up. Perhaps Dhoni can improve his game and get to the level of these, but as of now he would not make a top class batting line up. Having a good wicketkeeper-batsman at number 7, which Dhoni is, is not equivalent to having a specialist keeper as you are erroneously trying to imply. Specialist keepers are a dead species anyways, so no use belaboring that point. Here is a checklist of what a specialist batsman should be able to do in a strong batting line up : 1. Bat in all kinds of conditions with reasonable comfort. 2. Have the technique to survive probing new ball spells. 3. Have the technique to handle top quality spin bowling. 4. Be able to make big hundreds when presented the opportunity. 5. Should be able to ebb and flow according to the match situation. Dhoni checks some of these boxes marginally, some not at all. Just think who he could displace from the top 6 of teams like India, Australia, South Africa, and England and you'll have your answer.

[thevortex]

Outsider - I dont think we are disagreeing too much. But I have to say going by your stringent definitions - very few No.6's in the world (specialist batsmen, that is) will pass those tests with flying colours. And I mean really very few! Yes Dhoni is not just a specialist keeper. But I do believe that the modern game has given cricket teams one automatic all rounder. That man who does two jobs reasonably well and one of them in which he is the master. That is your quintessential definition for an all rounder. The Sobers' and Kallis' of the world are too few. So, yes a wicket keeping batsman is indeed an all rounder. Regarding the spot that he bats - that is going to be a team decision. That should not prevent the player himself from not being called an all rounder. One who is reasonably proficient with at least two disciplines of the game. At the end of it all, its only a case of horses for courses. On a surface which is easier for batsmen, would you not trust Dhoni enough to put him at No.6? That is the entire question basically.

[putrevus]

In all his 43 tests matches what test match you can say wow, he was the Saviour when all the top order failed and he lifted the side. He is the epitome of front runner, when top order lays a nice foundation he comes up order as and takes all glory.For all his popularity his batting is yet to evolve to bail out India out of tough spots.Even Kamran Akmal haas more knocks than Dhoni to bail his side out. you can take it to bank he will fail when India needs his batting, let us compare him to one all rounder India had Kapil Dev. Kapil's avg though lot lesser played some great knocks when all the top order failed.

[Fontaine]

It's more about the type of bowlers you have rather than the quantity. What's the point of having 4 swing bowlers and one spinner if there's no swing? Or bowling 3 hit the deck bowlers and two spinners in England? Our biggest deficiency in the bowling department is not just talented bowlers but the right types of bowlers who are intelligent and consistent. We've got one hit the deck type bowler who can bowl just on a back of length and still get good bounce/carry in Ishant. That's great, you need that sort of classic tall/lanky bowler. Ishant has to improve in his consistency and ability to find a good length again and again. We've got to continue to develop left arm fast swing bowlers. Left arm fast bowlers that swing that ball are poison to most batsmen. What happened to the RP Singh/Pathan? Why haven't they taken the next step like Zaheer has? Irfan Pathan, I believe, is a far more important player for India's test future than a Pujara/Raina or any other largely untested batsmen. There's is absolutely no reason why Pathan shouldn't be bowling like Zaheer with pace in the mid to low 80s consistently swinging and moving the new ball making life hell for right handers. You're almost guaranteed that you'll find decent right hand fast bowlers like Sreesanth/Patel etc etc. You don't have to worry about finding those kinds of bowlers. The key is finding and developing those rare left arm bowlers or tall classic fast bowlers that generate extra bounce and pace. If Mithun was a left armer you could have almost guaranteed he would have picked up a couple more wicket just by the way he would have created the awkward angles into batsmen much like when Mitchell Johnson goes wayward but still picks up a few wickets because right hand batsmen with poor technique playing away from their bodies will always be more susceptible to getting out from lefties. I'm hearing good things about Pathan now, let's hope both himself and Ishant get their skills and mentality right because they already have the talent.

[The Outsider]

Outsider - I dont think we are disagreeing too much. But I have to say going by your stringent definitions - very few No.6's in the world (specialist batsmen, that is) will pass those tests with flying colours. And I mean really very few!

Point is that the top team's top 6 would rank higher than Dhoni on a combination of these parameters. And if they rank lower, these teams would be actively looking for a replacement.

Yes Dhoni is not just a specialist keeper. But I do believe that the modern game has given cricket teams one automatic all rounder. That man who does two jobs reasonably well and one of them in which he is the master. That is your quintessential definition for an all rounder. The Sobers' and Kallis' of the world are too few. So, yes a wicket keeping batsman is indeed an all rounder. Regarding the spot that he bats - that is going to be a team decision. That should not prevent the player himself from not being called an all rounder. One who is reasonably proficient with at least two disciplines of the game. At the end of it all, its only a case of horses for courses. On a surface which is easier for batsmen, would you not trust Dhoni enough to put him at No.6? That is the entire question basically.

Just for arguments sake, let me buy the argument that Dhoni bats at number 6. What happens after that? You have a number 7, Harbhajan. That's ridiculous from any angle. Number 7 in cricket teams is not the slot of a lower order slogging machine. It's the position of a genuine wicketkeeper-batsman or an all rounder capable of playing proper test innings and having the ability to score test hundreds. The opposition is in your tail at 5 down with the potential of wrapping up the innings in 30-40 runs. It's a ridiculous strategy. If you had someone like Pathan at number 7, then yes you could toy with the idea of moving Dhoni up one spot. That a number 7 is not expected to contribute with the bat is a completely wrong statement with regards to how the modern game is played, in fact even historically number 7s have been decent batsmen.