To Outsider: WTF is this?

[The Outsider]

Has any historian proved the existence of ram/krishna ? :nervous:

VHP and Bajrang Dal have set up some universities whose joint independent commission of scholars has published papers refereed by Ram Sena members in a Shiv Sena owned journal to prove their existence. But besides that in world renowned history journals and academic circles of top liberal arts universities, the evidence does appear a bit spurious.

[Texy]

What OUTSIDER said would be extremely highly offensive. This is not about the authentication of mythological characters but showing respect to the earthly figure respected by millions. if you start talking about proving the authenticity of religious figures..... every organized religion ki dhoti khul jayegi starting with the illiterate nomad pedophile with a billion plus followers

[Texy]

I don't think anybody can dispute on the existance of Muhammed or Guru Nanak or Jesus . It's a different matter whether they are god's messengers. That can be disputed. No offense ' date=but in the case Rama or Krishna , their is a school of thought that they were merely mythological characters and that they never existed.

ye lo aur ek expert aa gaya how the f do you know that? Sure they control the media, the print press, billions of dollars for missionaries continuously producing literature for people to blindly believe everything written down in bible n koran as oppose to Hindus who are critical of their own faith how do you know that a middle age white guy with beard and not a black slave was the messenger of God? how can you prove that Mother Mary was indeed a virginn who "miraculously" gave birth to Jesus and not a 16 yr old hooker who gave birth to an illegitimate child? and what about all those bullsh!t of Moses crossing thru egypt for 40 yrs and showing people the right of passage to the promised land?

[kumble_rocks]

ye lo aur ek expert aa gaya how the f do you know that? Sure they control the media, the print press, billions of dollars for missionaries continuously producing literature for people to blindly believe everything written down in bible n koran as oppose to Hindus who are critical of their own faith how do you know that a middle age white guy with beard and not a black slave was the messenger of God? how can you prove that Mother Mary was indeed a virginn who "miraculously" gave birth to Jesus and not a 16 yr old hooker who gave birth to an illegitimate child? and what about all those bullsh!t of Moses crossing thru egypt for 40 yrs and showing people the right of passage to the promised land?

Boy , you certainly are dense,. Where the f did I acknowlege their faith or their stupid beliefs. Go and read my post verbatim.

[The Outsider]

Its kinda hard for any evidence to survive after the sort of destruction enacted by ROP.

I was wondering how long it would be before His Moronity graces this thread, like every other, with his besuraa alaap of ROP, Islam, thousand years, prosecution yada yada yada. :hysterical:

[yoda]

There is ofc historical evidence for the Ten Commandments, The Gita, The Vedas and the Ramayan. Google it and I am sure you will find enough. The question is not whether there is evidence or if they are believable, it is more of are you going to have to decency to let those who believe in them to practice their religion in peace with having abuses hurled on them?

[The Outsider]

There is ofc historical evidence for the Ten Commandments, The Gita, The Vedas and the Ramayan. Google it and I am sure you will find enough. The question is not whether there is evidence or if they are believable, it is more of are you going to have to decency to let those who believe in them to practice their religion in peace with having abuses hurled on them?

As I've said before believe in whatever you want. I don't have any problems with that. Just don't spew out nonsense that there is some 'consensus' about the existence of Ram, and I wouldn't have bothered about your or anyone's belief. By making statements like the above you are opening yourself to ridicule because the fact is there is no consensus on the existence of Ram. Forget consensus, find me more than a handful reputable history academics from top universities in the world who would support that claim. Your ire should be directed at the poster who tried to peddle his belief in the cloak of science and history, not at me, who is merely defending the position of science and preventing it from being polluted by unfounded beliefs.

[yoda]

Your ire should be directed at the poster who tried to peddle his belief in the cloak of science and history, not at me, who is merely defending the position of science and preventing it from being polluted by unfounded beliefs.

So he made a mis-statement that there is consensus about the existence of these gods. Harmless mistake, wasn't viscous, didn't insult anyone or anyone's beliefs, just a plain mis-statement. Now compare it with your response and you will know why the defender of Science wasn't just defending it. BTW one of the world's leading Scientists himself has changed his position about GOD recently. Wouldn't be surprised if he or others would change their position again. :winky:

[Ram]

Just imagine if someone walked up to you today and said he believed in the story of talking dog, or a man who walked on fire or converted sand into gold. You’d think he has completely lost his marbled. But when the same stuff is peddled as religion – whether it be the preposterous tales of virgin birth or Jesus converting water into wine or Moses separating the seas, or the tales Prophet Mohammed or even the near children book tales styled epics of Ramayana and Mahabharata, everyone’s supposed to just buy into that and defer to that? I am allowed to question your political beliefs, I am allowed to question your sporting allegiances, I am allowed to comment upon on your tastes in music, heck I am allowed to casually stereotype your race. But religion has for long maintained a stance that, however preposterous those tales of prophets and elephant gods sound, however less evidence there is to support those claims, it should be kept at an arm’s length and treated with kids gloves. Why is that? Mormonism is fake because it says Jesus is from Missouri, but Christianity is true because it says Jesus was born near Jerusalem? Scientology is ridiculous because it believes in the existence of aliens, while Islam is genuine because it believes in the near abhorrent idea of a martyr being gifted with 72 virgins? Anybody with even a iota of common sense and honesty will easily concede that the near-cinematic style story lines of Ramayana /Mahabharata obviously imply that they were simply myths, not a reconstruction of real events. But hey, we’re all supposed to believe in it right? Why, because that is just how it is.

[The Outsider]

So he made a mis-statement that there is consensus about the existence of these gods. Harmless mistake, wasn't viscous, didn't insult anyone or anyone's beliefs, just a plain mis-statement. Now compare it with your response and you will know why the defender of Science wasn't just defending it.

A flat out lie insulting all science stands for is more like what he did. Waah! so if someone insults science then it's a harmless mistake and does not insult anyone's belief. But when I defend the science that he insulted(using factually incorrect statements, to peddle his unproven belief in the name of science), I am harming sentiments!! And yes I was only defending science by stating that his all consensus theory is a hogwash, because then one would also need consensus on the existence of spaceships and talking monkeys 3000 years back. Such hypocrisy can only be expected from brainwashed religious people!

[triam]

Is there proof that some guy called jesus existed? sure, jesus was a common enough name and there are multiple jesus's who existed. Is there proof The Jesus existed, not really. There really is not proof or evidence of these guys (with their characteristics) really existed, take it for what it is worth.

[yoda]

Is there proof that some guy called jesus existed? sure, jesus was a common enough name and there are multiple jesus's who existed. Is there proof The Jesus existed, not really. There really is not proof or evidence of these guys (with their characteristics) really existed, take it for what it is worth.

What is the proof that you or I exist? All this could be happening in someone's dream. :giggle:

[Ram]

The only reason religious people get away with all their shenanigans is not because their beliefs are based on fact/evidence, not because it even makes any sort of sense, but because they ‘just know it is the right thing to believe in..’ But that’s not the worst part, hell no. It isn’t enough if they alone buy into the tales of men walking on water or gods with three eyes, but everyone has to respect it and defer to it, whether they believe it or not. If someone questions their beliefs, there’s all this default outrage of hurt sentiments and bruised sensitivities. I find that deeply offensive and repulsive.

[Ram]

Is there proof that some guy called jesus existed? sure, jesus was a common enough name and there are multiple jesus's who existed. Is there proof The Jesus existed, not really. There really is not proof or evidence of these guys (with their characteristics) really existed, take it for what it is worth.

I think there’s reasonable evidence to support the existence of Jesus the moralist/preacher. But of course, all the tales of him walking on water or converting water into wine were simply made up along the way by the followers of his new cult, just to romanticize his whole existence. But as mere individual, Jesus probably had a transformative effect on our morals, more than probably anyone else. His morals were far ahead of his time, much like Gandhi’s or MLK’s ideology of non-violence in the face of repression.

[triam]

What is the proof that you or I exist? All this could be happening in someone's dream. :giggle:

do you want a serious answer for that or was it just a sarcastic giggle?

[Ram]

Nobody is questioning your right to question religion(s) atleast not me. Just dont apply censure one way when others do it. ( And FFS dont take this as a affront and make it a ego issue. It is a honest suggestion ).

Nobody is questioning my right to question religion? Comeeeeeeee on, I cannot believe you can say that with a straight face!! Imagine if I went into a Latter Day Saints church in Provo, Utah and shouted out their entire cult of Mormonism was simply made up by an utter Charlatan named Joseph Smith in the 18th century, what would you think their reaction would be? In fact, it is us (non-believers) who are the most censured group, we’re the ones who make the most compromises. Yet, most of us are sensitive enough and decent enough to at least play silent observer, even as the world around wallows in religious fever and superstitions. Trust me, if I wanted, I could create thread after thread, haranguing religious faith after religious faith, for believing in tales that are definitely fantasy and borderline crazy (72 virgins after death..? I mean WTF!!). But the only reason why I keep mum is because it is an extremely sensitive issue for the believers.

[yoda]

do you want a serious answer for that or was it just a sarcastic giggle?

no and no.

[Ram]

This is not true. Take a look at the track record of various mods and admins on this site which is teeming with left leaning self styled secularists and atheists who have all gone to extreeme lengths to crack down on any topic that questions a certain religion.

That’s just flat false. I dont want to represent the entire mod team, but I can definitely speak for myself. As much as I find the mere concept of religion, gods and prophets utterly repulsive, as a passionate secularist, I will strongly defend the rights of people to have their own beliefs, however distorted and false they might sound to me. It isn’t my fault that 99% of the time, the religion that gets bashed here is Islam and that is understandable because most of us are Hindus. I challenge you openly, you point me to a single topic that is tending to denigrate Hinduism or Christianity or for that matter, any other religion and I will clamp down on those as vehemently. If I were a Mod in a forum that has majority of Muslim members and they were constantly abusing Hinduism, I will not allow that to happen as well, even if I was born into a Muslim family. So stop painting me, as some sort Islam sympathasizer when I have repeatedly made clear that I do not subscribe to any particular ideology and I have equal contempt (or love) for all of them.

[Ram]

Yaar I was talking about this phorum. You and me cant even squeak about these topics in public which is a no-brianer.

If you want to talk about just this forum, A non-believer/doubter/skeptic cannot question the veracity of the beliefs of other believers because that is considered insensitive (case in point; outrage at the post questioning Ram), but the believer of one faith can openly criticize another faith? And what kind of obvious double standard is this?

[someone]

I don't think anybody can dispute on the existance of Muhammed or Guru Nanak or Jesus . It's a different matter whether they are god's messengers. That can be disputed. No offense ' date='but in the case Rama or Krishna , their is a school of thought that they were merely mythological characters and that they never existed.[/quote'] That is exactly the problem with people like you in the world. No one can question the existence of others but you can question the existence of what you want as it is your freedom. And there are definitely schools in the world where the thought is that they even were merely mythological characters and that they never existed. And if you read some history, you would know there are already enough facts to prove the existence.