The Arundhati Roy thread

[seedhi]

http://news.rediff.com/special/2010/jun/02/arundhati-roy-on-war-of-people.htm I don't know what to say for the first comment. The second is partially true. I think the middle class wants to secure what they have and most affected by the law/order situation or unruly people trying to prove whatever ideologies they wear on their sleeves. For a state like India, a stronger govt is always good.

Someone should aks her why, if she feels so strongly about this, doesnt she follow true democratic principles and stand for elections from somewhere and then raise the issue in parliament.

[Lurker]

Not exactly sure what happened to her. She reminds me of a person who got jilted in love and went complete nuts...made the U-turn in life and went from a charming young man to an absolute hateful chap. What has happened to her is less ideology and more pschycology(sp?) me thinks

[yoda]

But the fact is nobody needs this war more than this government. The fact is it is manufacturing an enemy to justify its war.

I say arrest the b.itch.

[Guest Gunner]

I am not entirely sure that I totally disagree with her point of view. Yes, she is being too harsh and overly dramatic about "capitalist assault" etc but there is also truth to the fact that there is severe oppression of the poor in India and a dialogue is necessary to avoid a large scale revolution.

[The Outsider]

She has grown a lot of radical views over the years, but there is a lot of truth to what she is saying about the Maoist movement. The region is one of the most mineral and natural resources rich region in the country and with growing industrialization it is likely to remain a flashpoint for many years to come if the locals do not benefit from their lands and industries continue to w.h0re their lands and resources to line up their pockets. One thing which is to be admired about her is the manner in which she conducts her journalism. She spends time with locals at the grassroots and then writes about them, which is a lot more than can be said for the vast majority of our Jholaachaap journalists who are into the profession because they couldn't do anything better. Remember, after her Booker Prize she could have easily chosen to sign up multi million dollar book deals and keep churning out books from some villa in France. Here is a long article she wrote about the time she spent in the Maoist heartland : http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?264738 One might find her views too radicalized, but there is a lot of truth to what she says.

[triam]

^^^ Her research credentials are not in question Shwetabh, her analysis skills are phucked up. She has these blinkers where everything is because of capitalism or democracy. If she was just a journalist reporting on her research she would do fine, she is too screwed up to be a good opinion writer.

[The Outsider]

triam, I'll be the first to admit that her views are too radical and extremist and her analysis of geopolitics is messed up at times. For example, her whole take on the Kashmir situation ignores so many realities like the influence of Pakistan and illegal infiltration in the country with the aim of violence. She calls for the will of the people to be expressed through a plebiscite, but ignores the fact that for a free and fair plebiscite one needs a stable and peaceful environment. She speaks very little about the forced eviction of Kashmiri Pundits and any rehabilitation plans for them. Her focus remains on the iron hand of the Indian armed forces and disenfranchisement of the people of Kashmir. Those are also valid points, but of smaller significance in the global picture which she does not see. I've followed her writings for a long time and her style of analysis is to go ballistic in driving some of her pet points at the cost of ignoring the larger picture. However, there are times when the points she is trying to drive home are in congruence with the larger picture like in the Narmada issue and also the Maoist issue. Her way of expression has gone pretty extreme and radically anti capitalism. But regards to the Maoist issue, her underlying point about industries coming in and stripping the locals of their lands and resources, benefiting from their forests and minerals while putting nothing back into their development and not offering any partnership in growth is extremely pertinent and should not be forgotten in the other rhetoric that she indulges in.

[triam]

^^ I agree with the bottom line issue of exploitation of natural resources and how it is not being funnelled to the local public. But t the whole Naxal and Maoist movements agenda isnt towards to get a fair share, it almost seems like they dont want to negotiate and they want to continue their way of living, I empathize with that thought but it is an extremely idealistic thought. As the old cliche goes " you cant stop progress" , the best things they could do is form a political party and play vote bank politics (it works for most minorities in India) and it would work for them too. What they are doing now is futile, only in movies like Avtar do the indigents defeat the invading crusaders.

[straight.drive]

Her arguments are flimsy and weak. Forest is a resource of the nation and an elected governement is free to use in whichever way it may choose to. Will she be happy if these tribals remain in forest with their primitive life steeped in ignorance and backwardness? Interestingly left wing ideologues renounce private property. But they spring up, in these cases,with pointless protests and un-ending harangues, saying that forest is a private property of tribals. How interesting!!!!

[The Outsider]

^^ I agree with the bottom line issue of exploitation of natural resources and how it is not being funnelled to the local public. But t the whole Naxal and Maoist movements agenda isnt towards to get a fair share, it almost seems like they dont want to negotiate and they want to continue their way of living, I empathize with that thought but it is an extremely idealistic thought.

There are extremist elements in all movements. The extremists in this struggle use violence and demand to stick to their old ways of living. But their support base comes from people who are not necessarily violent and won't shun alternate means of living if educated, given the correct alternatives and rights.

As the old cliche goes " you cant stop progress" , the best things they could do is form a political party and play vote bank politics (it works for most minorities in India) and it would work for them too. What they are doing now is futile, only in movies like Avtar do the indigents defeat the invading crusaders.

Well, firstly the term 'progress' is ambiguous. Is it progress to strip some people of what has been their land and resources for centuries because some IT professional working for Microsoft in Bangalore wants Marble tiles at his home entrance? Such growth cannot be sustained without violence and disgruntlement. You have to make them partners in this 'progress', only then will it be termed progress. Government rehabilitation schemes and compensations are pathetic. What's the root cause of this? Greed and blindfolded capitalism where everything has to weighed in dollar amounts. Well with that policy, this is a risk you are taking. Recently a relative of mine had to part from his land for some government scheme. The free market value of the land was around Rs.3 Crore. He got a compensation of Rs.75 Lakh or thereabouts. That too because he was able to pull some strings. Can you imagine what the tribals get for land taken away from them? I am not sure if you are too aware of JMM - Jharkhand Mukti Morcha. It was founded to have a separate state of Jharkhand and had a number of tribal leaders. Jharkhand has been created and the situation of the people has not improved one bit. It is one of the most corrupt political parties in India, and that is quite an achievement! The locals have not seen any benefit from the vote bank politics, just as the Muslims or other backward classes of India don't see any benefits from being part of these vote banks. There is no easy solution. It calls for industries to take social responsibility and the government to implement an inclusive model of growth. Both are unheard of concepts in India.

[triam]

There are extremist elements in all movements. The extremists in this struggle use violence and demand to stick to their old ways of living. But their support base comes from people who are not necessarily violent and won't shun alternate means of living if educated, given the correct alternatives and rights. Well, firstly the term 'progress' is ambiguous. Is it progress to strip some people of what has been their land and resources for centuries because some IT professional working for Microsoft in Bangalore wants Marble tiles at his home entrance? Such growth cannot be sustained without violence and disgruntlement. You have to make them partners in this 'progress', only then will it be termed progress. Government rehabilitation schemes and compensations are pathetic. What's the root cause of this? Greed and blindfolded capitalism where everything has to weighed in dollar amounts. Well with that policy, this is a risk you are taking. Recently a relative of mine had to part from his land for some government scheme. The free market value of the land was around Rs.3 Crore. He got a compensation of Rs.75 Lakh or thereabouts. That too because he was able to pull some strings. Can you imagine what the tribals get for land taken away from them? I am not sure if you are too aware of JMM - Jharkhand Mukti Morcha. It was founded to have a separate state of Jharkhand and had a number of tribal leaders. Jharkhand has been created and the situation of the people has not improved one bit. It is one of the most corrupt political parties in India, and that is quite an achievement! The locals have not seen any benefit from the vote bank politics, just as the Muslims or other backward classes of India don't see any benefits from being part of these vote banks. There is no easy solution. It calls for industries to take social responsibility and the government to implement an inclusive model of growth. Both are unheard of concepts in India.

Shwetabh I am not saying this is progress or this has to happen, but more in the way of it cannot be stopped. I agree that govt compensation is a joke, but the way to solve that is to make personal property rights, which currently dnt exist in India. But then once you talk of personal property rights etc it is almost libertarianism the complete opposite of communism and the likes that Ms.Roy advocate.

[Lurker]

I am not entirely sure that I totally disagree with her point of view. Yes' date= she is being too harsh and overly dramatic about "capitalist assault" etc but there is also truth to the fact that there is severe oppression of the poor in India and a dialogue is necessary to avoid a large scale revolution.

You probably should. Severe oppression of poor is one thing, complete disrespect of Nation is totally other. Put it this way, if a group of Muslim terrorists/insurgents who publicly state that they do not beleive in Indian Constitution and go about killing Indian Security forces(including cornering CRPF with assault rifles), every Indian citizen would be up in arms(and rightly so). The worse piece about Naxalism is mainstream Indians relate it to poverty and ill-development, shrug their shoulders and move on. Reality is much different. xxx

[achilles]

She maybe turning into a rebel. I understand that she's grown frustrated of the Government but that doesn't mean you side with the Maoists. I also remember her being character assassinated on Times Now for making faces when the reporters asked her a few uncomfortable questions. Come back to being the legend you are, Ms. Roy!

[The Outsider]

Shwetabh I am not saying this is progress or this has to happen, but more in the way of it cannot be stopped.

In the same way, these revolts cannot be stopped and somewhere down the line some of them will turn violent.

I agree that govt compensation is a joke, but the way to solve that is to make personal property rights, which currently dnt exist in India. But then once you talk of personal property rights etc it is almost libertarianism the complete opposite of communism and the likes that Ms.Roy advocate.

I just gave the example of a simple plot of land. What we are dealing with here is beyond that. It directly impacts and effects the lives of millions of people. Where are the long term environmental studies on these industrial projects? Where are the studies on the impact on social and economic lives of these people? More than 500,000 people got displaced in the Narmada project. How many have been rehabilitated successfully so many years down the line? What tangible benefits have these people reaped from having to forsake their centuries old lands? No one bothers about these questions as long as they get the Marble for their home entrance.

[Lurker]

She has grown a lot of radical views over the years' date=' but [b']there is a lot of truth to what she is saying about the Maoist movement. The region is one of the most mineral and natural resources rich region in the country and with growing industrialization it is likely to remain a flashpoint for many years to come if the locals do not benefit from their lands and industries continue to w.h0re their lands and resources to line up their pockets.

Nope there isnt :beee: Maoist movement is hardly a new phenomenon. Its been a bane on Indian civil society for almost 4 decades now. It is only recently that Maoists have decided to get under the environment umbrella. Historically they have always been champions of squatters rights, essentially meaning if you plow a land you own it. My first hand experience with them made me realize very early on that they have no ideology except grabbing free land, or land freely. Bulk of area where Maoists gathered strength had absolutely nothing to do with minerals and natural resources(Bihar for example). They used the class divide essentially to redistribute land, and did not care about who, or how, was losing these land so long as their patrons were receiving it. Whereever Maoist have ruled has done two things: a) Landowners have run away. b) Land tillers have occupied the land. To make it worse land tillers dont own the land, obviously. Sooner than later these owners shall return and the same folks would be thrown off their land. Its only when these buggers landed in Chattisgarh that they became environmentally conscious. xxx

[The Outsider]

Lurker, what you described was the origin of the movement in the 70s related to land reforms and laws. The movement has moved on since, both geographically and ideologically. The current issue is much broader than local fights against the atrocities of the landlords in Bihar and Bengal. The epicenter of the struggle and problem now are tracts of rich natural resources which are being acquired by the government and industries, with little care to the local population. Even the prime characters have changed from lower class field workers to tribals inhabiting these lands. If you prefer to give it some other name than Maoists or Naxalites, that is fine. I am not too hung up on the nomenclature, rather the issues of social justice which give these militants the vast support base they currently have.

[ViruRulez]

Lurker, what you described was the origin of the movement in the 70s related to land reforms and laws. The movement has moved on since, both geographically and ideologically. The current issue is much broader than local fights against the atrocities of the landlords in Bihar and Bengal. The epicenter of the struggle and problem now are tracts of rich natural resources which are being acquired by the government and industries, with little care to the local population. Even the prime characters have changed from lower class field workers to tribals inhabiting these lands. If you prefer to give it some other name than Maoists or Naxalites, that is fine. I am not too hung up on the nomenclature, rather the issues of social justice which give these militants the vast support base they currently have.

I agree with some of your points but Maoist is not the right thing as violence cannot be justified by any means. I am all for helping the poor and work for their development. But violence and killing of innocents is not the means. Regarding capitalist that has to remain somewhat or the growth of the country will stop and that is also a fact. Corruption is cutting a large portion of the resources entitled to the poor and if corruption ends then a lot of things will fall into the right place. A perfect communist country is not realistic and not desirable and so equal wealth for everyone is not possible. For every one hereditary rich there are hundreds of people who have grown rich due to their hard work. Some people works off their ass and study in their childhood and live a much better life later on like most of us here. If the people who work hard and study during their whole childhood receive equal wealth and benefits as the school and college dropouts and criminals then those hard-working people will stop working hard and there would be no competition and then no development. So, it has to middle way through and so the first and foremost thing is to remove corruption. The taxes can also be increased then as people would have lesser problems with that as they would know that the money would go to the right places instead being swallowed by corruption. BTW I have a lot of plans in my mind and have a clear map for India's development if ever I become the PM of the country if the country. :P (just j/k ). One other very important thing that would need to happen is the end of vote bank politics as every party does that and till that remains there can never be equitable public fund distribution. Last but not the least work for the development of the rural areas from where Maoists and other terrorists get their support. Dont only invest in rural areas but make it beneficial revenue generation system too like the cities. Our Indian mentality also has to change for that to some extent. We Indians made a mess and huge and cry (not us all but there were many) when they were looking for a more affordable BT Brinjal which is a hybrid which would have given better production results and thereby more food at lesser price. There were protests all over India as if everybody would die after eating BT Brinjal though it was tested well enough to make sure there would not be any big affects. Cut the crap. We have an ever increasing population and need hybrid products and new things now. They can be kept at a cheaper price and people can buy them only if they cannot afford the higher priced vegetables. There are whole lot of things that can be done but both the govt. attitude and the Indian people's mentality has to change for it to take place.

[triam]

Shwetabh, I trust you will believe me I empathize with the situation the tribals face ? Aside frm that I have a few questions to you 1. Do you believe this is a grass root organization completely home grown , without any support (financial or otherwise) from china? 2. Do you believe Communism in any frm (be it Maoist or Marxist) is really a valid political solution? 3. Our national political leaders (a lot of local political leaders are thats another story) to the major part are corrupt for sure but not evil, to the extent they will order or back mass slaughter of innocent civilians to make more money (for example a PC or Manmohan Singh), would you agree to this statement or not? 4. Same question as earlier one of the industries that is being blamed is Tata, do you believe Mr.Tata would be involved with something so vile (actual murder albeit indirectly) to further his already huge empire? 5. All of Roy's sarcasm in that article towards big government, industries and other theories is justifiable?

[Clarke]

Damn it, sometimes i feel India managed to get the worst out of the right and left wing ideologies. On one side u have the insane inequality in terms of wealth distribution, the hotshot billionaires, some of the world's richest as opposed to the largest number of poor in the world. Thats the extreme of the free market/right wing philosophy. On the other side u hav the corrupt inefficient bureaucratic setup that takes years to accomplish something that should be finished in months, an extreme one would associate with big govt/left wing philosophy. The same **** happens here as well; despite all the big govt controls and five yr plans and what not, poverty and wealth inequality is a massive problem, and so is law and order as a direct result. Just how incompetent have we been in the last 60 yrs ..

[Desi Cartman]

The maoists are just taking advantage of the poor since poor are now aware of the difference between have and have nots. The politicians have taken advantage of the poor for a very long time but they managed to act as masters. These things are bound to happen when the whole system is corrupt. If educated people like us get frustrated with the govt then I cant even imagine what these poor people have to go through. Like Outsider mentioned, the govt has always neglected these people and now they think they can fight for what the maoists are telling them is theirs. Its like JKLF taking advantage of unemployed youths in J&k or same thing in the NE. Its nothing more and nothing less. The only solution is better governance and crackdown on corruption but.................