Babri Verdict to be announced today

[seedhi]

British had a better machinary and gun power ' date=' at the most Babur had was better horses ! So wrong comparison. And what is your point here ![/quote']The point is simply that factual history should not be suppressed at the altar of political correctness. Let me just say that better horses, better and lighter armor, archers and riding skills mattered a lot - the success of the unstoppable Mongol army was based on these factors.

[ViruRulez]

The denial exhibited by the Muslim community at large that there existed a Temple that was brought down is far more disturbing than anything. And to make matters worse there are those self styled secularists who think that its perfectly ok for a Mosque to be considered a holy place even if it is bleedingly obvious of how it came up trampling some other holy place of worship. Such knuckle heads can only be dealt with court orders.

BB history cannot be changed and if history is tried to be changed it would be a grave mistake in the 21st century. India was once a Buddhist country for a long time too as you might know though Buddhists are an extreme minority today in India that too mostly practiced by people living in exile like respected Dalai Lama and his monks. But to be frank if we want to make India a Buddhist country again that would not only be a futile but horrible exercise. We cannot change history and it would be a massive blunder if we think of doing so in the modern era. Modern world goes by scientific proofs but these things are more of a matter of faith rather than science to be frank now. So, the best way to easily solve the problem is to go by the court order and I hope it allows both the Ram Temple and Mosque to be built side by side as that is the only solution that will work in the long run from what I see. The only long term and permanent solution to this problem from what I see is to build both the places of worship from what I see. Maybe a church, gurudwara, a buddhist monastery and a Jain temple can also be built in the vicinity if not the exact site. This would serve as the perfect symbol of Indian unity amongst it various diversities too. To be frank, I doubt the existence of any religion in the world and it looks more as man-made assumptions and I can give evidence regarding it after making comparative study of all religions. But then that is a different matter and it is not the right thread to discuss. The reason I am still advocating religious structure of both/all religions is because that is the only long term solution I can foresee which can end this problem forever. And if any other instead of a religious structure needs to be built like others in this thread advised then I would advise that the Nalanda University should be revived as planned by govt. of India as a world class international university in Ayodhya instead of Patna. I believe nobody can dispute the fact that Nalanda University was perhaps the biggest achievement of India in ancient times. Let is be built as a world class international university again as it was in the ancient age. It would not only showcase India's great history but also serve the great cause of education. If needed comparative religions can also be taught there like it was done in the past and this might even help people realize with the help of modern science if all the religions were "actually created by God" or "were created by humans". They can take the help of science to solve all these too.

[ViruRulez]

Nobody is asking history to be changed although Kaangress has made considerable progress over 50 yrs on this count. How else do you find idiots who stoutly believe that barbarians like Tippu were "heroes" or that Jizya was a tax in lieu of zakat and so on and so forth ? As a society we will never progress if we keep ignoring the harsh lessons from history. Indeed the ritual lessons are being played out in front of our own eyes in Kashmir. You talk about Buddhism being the prominent religion in the first millenia ... yes it was and guess who nearly wiped it off !! You talk about Nalanda ... guess who burnt it down and under what pretext !! I can understand why you quite simply skipped the main question( i.e how can that Mosque be a holy place of worship ) in my post that you responded to but remember this ... there can never be peace unless all parties involved come to terms with the real history.

I am appeasing of any kind and there can be no second thoughts about it. That is why I say all present politicians are a bunch of crooks who are hell bent on votebank politics. As I said I for one believe that all religions are made made figments of imagination but then I cannot change that religions exist. Or I would be called a communist. :P I am not denying what happened in history but if we try to mess our lives or try to change things based on what happened in the past then we would make a big blunder for sure. I am a Muslim but I vehemently say that Jizya was not only wrong but notorious. Nalanda was destroyed by invaders but Buddhism was reduced from the main religion of India by other kings even before the arrival of the invaders. There are many reasons for the end of Buddhism from India though it spread across the world to become the fourth most followed religion in the world after Christianity, Islam and Hinduism. But again those are all past and there is no benefit to crib about the past or to let it affect our present and future. I am quite sure that peace will prevail for sure and I for sure agree with you that there must be uniform code for everyone without appeasing anyone at all. And I also hope that a new political party which is really interested in India and its development rather than votebank politics, corruption, divide and rule policies etc. emerge very soon. I have faith in the modern generation and I am quite sure it will happen within our lifetime itself and we will surely become the ideal nation which every Indian has always imagined.

[achilles]

Its been ages. Hope this matter settles once and for all and both parties respect the decision and get on with it. Lets end this matter and move on. Our democracy is our strength, not a fodder as feed for other's to joke about.

[jf1gp_1]

Best solution was put forward by Cyrus Broacha. Org which would do true justice to land and should get it is DLF

[ViruRulez]

You may not deny but you belong to a very very tiny group of people. Reality is no Muslim in India has much qualms on how that Mosque came to be but still consider it some sort of sacred place which is very disturbing to say. No society can last when a huge chunk of its population condones such barbarious acts. Its quite natural that some hindus would stand up. But as I said before in a different thread ... You are not a true muslim because the rule for extracting Jizya comes directly from your holy book( 9:29 ). Now not many people have the balls to stand up and question this aspect but if you REALLY want to get to the bottom of hindu-muslim problems then this is one very good place to start. This was not done thru ethnic cleansing, coercion or brute force.

I dont give a crap about others. And I can assure you that I am not amongst a group of tiny group of people. At least most people in urban India are like me only especially the younger generation. In urban India you would hardly find hardliners especially amongst the educated class irrespective of religion. That is why RSS, VHP, Bajrang Dal, Muslim fanatics etc. need to villages and the illiterate masses to get their supporters. I at least have never seen any of my friends irrespective of religious being religious bigots. Anyways we are more followers of science and IT rather than religion. :--D And I have spent almost my whole life in cities and urban areas and so I can say about Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Sikhs etc. of the urban populace only and they are not a small group. The urban populace drives India's economy and their importance is even more than the number. It is nowhere near tiny and I can assure you about that for sure. Regarding accepting it or not I dont have any problem with accepting it or not accepting it. If I have to go by modern science, there is not enough proof to be frank but then it is more of a matter of faith than of science. Frankly speaking I cannot go on smashing my head over what happened in the past especially something which happened half a millennium ago. I would be a real @$$ to lose my sleep over something that happened in the medieval ages and see its relevance in the modern era. To be fair enough I dont a crap about religious farces of all religions as these are more of figment of imaginations rather than based on truth. I am saying about religions for that matter and I can nearly prove it with the help of modern sciences that those are farces. If anyone thinks that all those kings were really interesting in religion then I would say that almost all of them were more interested in territorial ambitions rather than religion. And I am saying it after studying history. No king in history seemed to be not interested in territorial ambitions. Frankly speaking if I have to compare the age of kings with modern era then that would again be a big mistake. There was no education, science etc. in that age and to compare both the eras is not only ridiculous but funny too. :giggle: As I said I dont care what is written and if it was right or wrong. I am not one who is going to lose sleep as to if the religious are right or wrong. I have great respect for all religions as that is an integral part of democracy but as I said I personally consider all religions to be farce and just human imaginations. I have tried to study religions with the help of modern science and findings but the more I try to study the more it seems that these all are human-made ideas. But I know 99% of Indians would still not consider religions to be farce including most of my friends though they are hardly followers of religion themselves. :--D I am sure with the further growth of science and with development people would be able to realize facts rather than remaining engulfed in fiction. For me I would say what is wrong and right from a modern scientific perspective and as I said I would not lose sleep neither try to change history as that would also be wrong. Lastly if you try to read history again then you would know that Buddhism was also reduced by persecution, coercion and force by kings even before the invaders came. Read about the Sungas, White Huns, Pallavas etc. to know more. In fact till the invaders came, Buddhism was already reduced to a minority from being a state religion though it had spread across Asia till then. To be fair enough the greatest architects of India were related to Buddhism. Geographical area of India was the biggest ever in its history under the rule of Ashoka the Great. And if Ashoka had not stopped his conquests maybe he could have enhanced it even further and conquered the almost a whole continent if not more. And our biggest pride in the ancient age was Nalanda University which was again regarded as a Buddhist center of learning though it taught various subjects including comparative religions. To be frank, all Indians seem to be interested in speaking about Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs and Christians but if any religion which never got its due in modern India then it is Buddhism. But then again there is no benefit in cribbing or thinking about history as that cannot be changed. Instead everyone should concentrate on building a modern India where we are regarded as an ideal nation in the future by the whole world. People can be stuck in the past or try and move forward in the future and develop a better world and better future. I am sure the literate ones would make the right choice.

[King Tendulkar]

The site should be given to hindus to build the temple. It is of great spiritual importance to hindus. The site has no real value for muslims. No prophet site etc. It is simply another mosque built by conquering muslims on another religions site. Muslims should just give it up and show they have a compassionate side. Strange how they continue to demand the mosque remains when of no importance to Islam religion but of unbelivable importance to hindus. Its the same mentality were they want to build a mosque near ground zero. Shows the insensitivity of muslims in Ayodha and 9/11 and lack of compromise in them. Also shows their hidden but fairly obvious expansionist policy whcih is always inherent in islam and its followers

[ViruRulez]

The site should be given to hindus to build the temple. It is of great spiritual importance to hindus. The site has no real value for muslims. No prophet site etc. It is simply another mosque built by conquering muslims on another religions site. Muslims should just give it up and show they have a compassionate side. Strange how they continue to demand the mosque remains when of no importance to Islam religion but of unbelivable importance to hindus. Its the same mentality were they want to build a mosque near ground zero. Shows the insensitivity of muslims in Ayodha and 9/11 and lack of compromise in them. Also shows their hidden but fairly obvious expansionist policy whcih is always inherent in islam and its followers

KT some good points. Personally speaking I think the best thing to do is to build both the Ram Mandir and a Mosque side by side. That would solve the problem in the long run IMO. I am not sure how much land is there and if there is land for both to be built side by side. If there is enough land then maybe I would have opted for a church and gurudwara in the vicinity maybe some distance from the exact site. This would not only work in the long term but also solve all problems of all sides IMO. Hope that the court verdict also advocates the same. I am not sure why all these parties have never been able to come to a simple and easy solution as such. It seems every party wanted to gain political mileage from it rather than solve the problem in a very easy manner which would be acceptable to every sane person.

[achilles]

I think a Temple and a Mosque should be built in the complex. Both faiths can exist in peace and this would send a wonderful message to the divisive forces that be.

[ViruRulez]

Once again I repeat .... how exactly is the mosque still in contention and most importantly why is it even a holy place of worship given how it was put up by trampling someonelses holy temple ? By doing this arent you sending a message that what happened under barbarians was ok and we dont mind it ? I dont recall a single noteworthy Muslim leader calling to give up claims on that site. The less said the better about what Muslims by and large think about Islamic rule.

BB perhaps you need to read my whole post again. I never said building only the mosque again. As I said repeatedly we cannot crib about history and it would be wrong to do so. We are not living in the medieval ages now. We have moved on to what we say as the modern democratic era. And going by the modern era there is no scientific proof to be frank but then as I said it is a matter of faith rather than science. The reason I advocate constructing both the places of worship side by side is because: 1. This would work in the long term. So called intellectuals like you and me :P could care a lot less about religion but to be frank most Indians are still religious and so taking any sides wont work in the long term. 2. If both are not built then I assure you that political leaders would keep on taking its benefit for their personal agendas and destroy the future of the nation too. I would rather concentrate on building the nation and working on its development rather than providing cannon fodder to political leaders and increasing their votebanks. 3. Lastly as you agree that if a mosque was really built by destroying a temple around half a millennium ago in the medieval ages (though there is no concrete scientific proof for the same and is more of a matter of faith) then I am quite sure you would equally be against building a temple by destroying a mosque. Something which is not ethical and right is not right. That is why I hope that both the mosque and temple is built so that it rectifies both the past mistakes and show the plurality and greatness of India. Regarding Muslim leader or Hindu leader or any other religious leader then they would take their respective viewpoints and they would not necessary make sense to modern intellectuals. I have not seen either side saying anything except their point of views. That is why we call them hardliners and fanatics and most educated people refuse to follow them but instead become moderates. So, if you are excepting any religious leader/fanatics/hardliners to move away from their points then you are really expecting that miracles would happen. We as moderates can try to sort out middle path but you wont find the hardliners to do so. I as a person hate all fanatics for one and if a person like me ever became the Indian PM :P then I would have banned all types of fanaticism and made every Indian work for development rather than these BS. And by comparing Muslims by and large with fanatics you are again making mass generalizations. It is like judging every follower of Hinduism by the acts of VHP and Bajrang Dal. Moderates already outnumber the fanatics by a huge number and are increasing day by day in the modern world though you might think otherwise. This is the 21st century and moderates are gradually taking over the world. Just have a reality check.

[ravishingravi]

Verdict in next half hour

[asterix]

Since when Indian judiciary has the right to give verdict on religious issues? Shah Bano case anybody? Why Hindus have to abide by the court decision on Ayodhya (I know they will not in the hindsight of the Shah bano case)? Ram Janmabhumi/Babri Masjid issue cannot be resolved by the Judiciary. Only a Legislative solution can work. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shah_Bano_case

The Passing of Muslim Women Protection Act allegedly sent a message of Muslim appeasement practised by the Congress party. To counter this charge Rajiv Gandhi began his election campaign in 1989 from Ram Janma Bhumi ( birth place of Lord Rama ) in Ayodhya. This led to revival of the Ram Janma Bhumi - Babari Masjid dispute which was lying in cold storage for about forty years which in turn led to bringing down of the Babari Masjid on 6 December 1992 and thereby causing bloody riots[1] all over India in which thousands of people were killed and over dozen powerful bomb blasts in Mumbai ( Bombay ) on 12 March 1993 in which hundreds of people mainly Hindus[2] were killed and/or maimed.

[Desi Cartman]

Verdict to be out in the next 10-15 mins :nervous:

[b555]

i am not able to go home due to this :((

[Alam_dar]

Since when Indian judiciary has the right to give verdict on religious issues? Shah Bano case anybody? Why Hindus have to abide by the court decision on Ayodhya (I know they will not in the hindsight of the Shah bano case)? Ram Janmabhumi/Babri Masjid issue cannot be resolved by the Judiciary. Only a Legislative solution can work. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shah_Bano_case

So, in name of Personal Muslim Law, you want to reject the Court decision? It is strange thing to me. Could you tell me if you don't consider court to take any decision on this matter, then why in first place you went to the court? And when case was already in the court, why then you attacked the site and demolished the mosque? I have no problem if court decides against mosque, but I will have problem if some people want to take the law in their hands and try to play above the law. Same is very very true about the Extremists in Pakistan whom I constantly see taking laws in their hands in name of religion. These extremism is the biggest madness of this universe. Either it is a Muslim extremist, or Hindu extremist or Christian extremist..... Death to all these extremists from my side. For the sake of India and Indian people (also for sake of Pakistan and it's minorities), I wish that court decided both against temple and mosque.

[gaurav92]

Verdict to be out in 15 mins. :nervous:

[Aaku]

Delhi loooks fine ! My sis seys mumbai is deserted

[gaurav92]

^yes.Mumbai has gone silent.Its like a day with very few on the streets, in fact in main Mumbai you see more police officials and officers than pedestrians.

[Desi Cartman]

there are atleast 4 cases and each judgement will be 6000 pages. I dont think we will know what it actually means in the next 4-5 hrs

[Desi Cartman]

utter chaos there ...