Is Tendulkar the second best batsman of all time?

[Guest Gunner]

The moment Gunner and Manny face some resistance...thats what they resort to ..and when I retaliate...it becomes a grave moderating/banning issue.

I have no idea when I abused your family etc. Please don't make up things as you go along.

[Manny_Pacquiao]

speaking of captaincy BTW, tendulkar averages 51.34 as captain. i dont know if that's any good or not (we will wait for mr. jigra patriot to decide that, because he knows more about cricket than all of us) but that's higher than mr. jigra's grandad allan 'ZERO man of the series in 156 matches' border.

[ludhianvi]

Going back to the OP, I think Tendulkar at the moment has clearly edged himself ahead of Lara and Ponting with his brilliant comeback in the last 2-3 years. Before that, it may still have been debatable but as of now, Tendulkar is ahead of both of them. Tendulkar is surely closing any doors left open for debate. As for Bradman vs Tendulkar, its a futile debate.

[Manny_Pacquiao]

anyway, i dont know if patriot is gonna be comign back here or not, he is probably firiing off PMs to the mods and whatever tryign to get me banned for questioning his sexuality but for the purpose of taking the discussion forward: can someone please outline all the necessary criteria for greatness. one by one. then we can look at everything and see how tendulkar compares. we already know he is doing pretty well in the man of the series and man of the match categories...

[patriot]

anyone? obviously doesnt include u then cos u don't seem to know "jack shyte" about ANYTHING' date=' i[b']ncluding the fact that tendulkar has boinked four of your sisters, which explains why u seem to hate the guy so much. now please don't report this post again...:giggle:

Abey ...Don't be cynical...your step dad Tendy ..has not cheated. :giggle:

so let's get back to the point here: if man of the match/man of the series is an indicator fo match winning and match saving and being a great batsman in general then is border better than or lesser than sachin tendulkar ? yes or no?

It certainly says alot and makes stand out batsmen who have had decisive say in the match result/ series result . For his sheer prolificness and contribution to matches/series India has won /saved SRT the batter is greater than Border....as can be reasonably estimated from the MoS, MoM stats. But for his sheer value to his side and overall contribution to his side - as captain and team builder in their worst phase- Border by a mile over SRT. But there far more valuable contributors than SRT as shown by the other names on that list. It is not just about volume of runs and tons - it is based on situation of the match, how that helped alter the fate of the match. That is where I don't rate Tendy too highly.

[Ram]

Enough guys, cut out all this maa-bhen business.

[Manny_Pacquiao]

For his sheer prolificness and contribution to matches/series India has won /saved SRT the batter is greater than Border....as can be reasonably estimated from the MoS' date=' MoM stats.[/quote'] excellent. so with that in mind, let's eliminate ponting, viv richards, lara too ebcause some have fewer MoS and some fewer MoMs. that leaves tendulkar as the only other bat left, along with kallis. as an aside, i really don't know if this is an accurate measure for match wnning or match saving. tendulkar won man of the series against australia in 1999 even though india lost 3-0. lara got one when west indies lost 3-0 in sri lanka. if anything its more an indication of individual performance, with less weightage given to the results. so big runs in weaker team can be worth a man fo the series because run scoring is harder in those circumstances but since this is the game u wanna play, i'll accept it.

But for his sheer value to his side and overall contribution to his side - as captain and team builder in their worst phase- Border by a mile over SRT. But there far more valuable contributors than SRT as shown by the other names on that list. It is not just about volume of runs and tons - it is based on situation of the match, how that helped alter the fate of the match. That is where I don't rate Tendy too highly.

captaincy is an interesting issue because its not quantifiable. nevertheless, u can still address this point. sachin tendulkar averages 51.34 as captain. so whether he could handle pressure of run scoring as captain isn't questionable at all. he led by example as seen by that average. that much is clear as for team building. in tendulkar's time as captain,the selectors were king, the situation was far more political than anything else. i think its clear that there was a zonal quota system in place and the captain had very little say in who got picked and who didnt. captain and coach didnt have a pivotal role in building teams in india back then, this only started under wright and ganguly. a good example of this is the noel david affair, who tendulkar talked about as 'noel who?' at the press conference cos he had no idea who was picked. plus if u look at some fo the garbage teams tendulkar had to lead, coupled with the political battles he had to deal with in terms of selection, u get a better idea of the circumstances he ahd to captain in. i don't think an allan border would have won a test series with talents like devang gandhi, ramesh, jacob martin, msk prasad, and others. as sourav ganguly and numerous others have said, captain is onyl as good as his team. in any case, i dont know how u can use this as a way of making border look better than tendulkar. the only quantifiable issue here is whether tendulkar's run scoring was affected by captaincy and this wasn't that big a deal, as he averaged 51.34

[patriot]

excellent. so with that in mind, let's eliminate ponting, viv richards, lara too ebcause some have fewer MoS and some fewer MoMs. that leaves tendulkar as the only other bat left, along with kallis.

...except for the fact that Ponting had to fight with 2 of the greatest bowlers of all time in Warne and Mcgrath as match winners for his side ..let alone other freaks like Adam Gilchrist - who so many times scored a blitzkreig match winning ton when Aussies found themselves as 150/5. ...except for the fact that Ponting has played far fewer series and has a higher MoS/series count. Ditto Viv Richards. Lara too playing for a piss poor losing WI team has a better MoM and MoS ratio.

but since this is the game u wanna play, i'll accept it.

NO. ..i am interested in playing a fair game either way and not hyping a certain player way beyond his contribution to team India. SRT had numerous chances to play the steely knocks that LAxman has played so often - he has always failed to take us through when he has not had enough support. That is the quality I admire most in batsmen. That Chennai knock against Pak still hurts - LAx got us through in a worse situation at 8 wickets down against AUssies by sticking through with his severely fragile knees and back. His contribution in 2001 series in a lost cause in Kolkata doesn't need a mention. These are among his most high profile balls of steel performances. SRT supporters always blame the team when he fails in such situations . The MoM and MoS are just a very good perspective about how his records have altered or shaped series and matches for India. For someone who has played a ****ing 171 matches..it is not floor shattering.

captaincy is an interesting issue because its not quantifiable. nevertheless, u can still address this point. sachin tendulkar averages 51.34 as captain. so whether he could handle pressure of run scoring as captain isn't questionable at all. he led by example as seen by that average. that much is clear as for team building. in tendulkar's time as captain,the selectors were king, the situation was far more political than anything else. i think its clear that there was a zonal quota system in place and the captain had very little say in who got picked and who didnt. captain and coach didnt have a pivotal role in building teams in india back then, this only started under wright and ganguly. a good example of this is the noel david affair, who tendulkar talked about as 'noel who?' at the press conference cos he had no idea who was picked. plus if u look at some fo the garbage teams tendulkar had to lead, coupled with the political battles he had to deal with in terms of selection, u get a better idea of the circumstances he ahd to captain in. i don't think an allan border would have won a test series with talents like devang gandhi, ramesh, jacob martin, msk prasad, and others. as sourav ganguly and numerous others have said, captain is onyl as good as his team. in any case, i dont know how u can use this as a way of making border look better than tendulkar. the only quantifiable issue here is whether tendulkar's run scoring was affected by captaincy and this wasn't that big a deal, as he averaged 51.34

EXCUSES GALORE !!!! INdian selectors have by and large sucked. Captains have always had to fight to get and back the right team. The kind of clout that Tendulkar has had in Indian cricket - he could have had what he wanted . So all those are just excuses, I am afraid.

[Manny_Pacquiao]

It is not just about volume of runs and tons - it is based on situation of the match' date=' how that helped alter the fate of the match. That is where I don't rate Tendy too highly.[/quote'] i dont think there are too many batsmen that can match tendulkar in this regard. there are countless occasions when a counter attacking century from tendulkar turned a match on its head and had the opposition on the run. whether india could sustain that momentum and create a match winning situation out of it isn't something that falls entirely on the batsman, because at the end fo the day its a team sport. i can remember many innings where he was basically the only one in the batting lineup that was scoring but the rest of the team wasn't up to par. take a look at some of his innings in 1999 and 2000 when india played in australia or against south africa at home as an example. plus i dont know how u quantify this 'situation of the match' and an innings 'match altering'. this is all sounding very subjective and flaky to me. whatever the case, i think tendulkar will be up there in pretty much any criteria u set up for him. the reason why i can call him great in quantifiable terms is because his name is up there at or around the top in most general criterias (i.e. 3rd and 4th innings and won match, 4th innings and won match, 1st and 2nd innings and won match, average away from home, etc. come up with whatever u want), and other batsmen are present in a few, and not present in some others. for example, if we try to make an assumption that run scoring in 3 and 4th innings is extremely difficult and is a metric for measuring how good a match winner tendulkar is, then there is no problem because tendulkar has 1241 runs @ average of 54 in these two innings in matches india won. he also has the most number of runs in 4th innings in matches won by india, 577 @ 72 (next best dravid with 480). but this assumption totally ignores that fact that run scoring can be just as hard or even harder in the 1st and 2nd innings on certain surfaces...u have to account for that to come up with fair numbers but nobody has the time to do stuff like this anyway, bottom line is that your arguments sound really flaky, subjective with very little quantifiable basis or fact

[yoda]

BTW, this is not the first the MoM argument has been brought in. Yuvi fans used to gloat over his MoM in the limited format of the game and I always thought it was bogus. 1. Sometimes the most deserving player doesn't get the MoM 2. Flashy players who perform brilliantly in a few games, but fail the consistency test will end up with more MoMs than those who are more consistent, but may not have as many peaks 3. Even if you performed brilliantly given your team's situation, if the other team wins and has a less than stellar performer, the other guy will most likely end up getting the MoM.

[patriot]

i dont think there are too many batsmen that can match tendulkar in this regard. there are countless occasions when a counter attacking century from tendulkar turned a match on its head and had the opposition on the run. whether india could sustain that momentum and create a match winning situation out of it isn't something that falls entirely on the batsman, because at the end fo the day its a team sport. i can remember many innings where he was basically the only one in the batting lineup that was scoring but the rest of the team wasn't up to par. take a look at some of his innings in 1999 and 2000 when india played in australia or against south africa at home as an example. plus i dont know how u quantify this 'situation of the match' and an innings 'match altering'. this is all sounding very subjective and flaky to me. whatever the case, i think tendulkar will be up there in pretty much any criteria u set up for him. the reason why i can call him great in quantifiable terms is because his name is up there at or around the top in most general criterias (i.e. 3rd and 4th innings and won match, 4th innings and won match, 1st and 2nd innings and won match, average away from home, etc. come up with whatever u want), and other batsmen are present in a few, and not present in some others. for example, if we try to make an assumption that run scoring in 3 and 4th innings is extremely difficult and is a metric for measuring how good a match winner tendulkar is, then there is no problem because tendulkar has 1241 runs @ average of 54 in these two innings in matches india won. he also has the most number of runs in 4th innings in matches won by india, 577 @ 72 (next best dravid with 480). but this assumption totally ignores that fact that run scoring can be just as hard or even harder in the 1st and 2nd innings on certain surfaces...u have to account for that to come up with fair numbers but nobody has the time to do stuff like this anyway, bottom line is that your arguments sound really flaky, subjective with very little quantifiable basis or fact

Since there have been " countless " such situations ..for someone whos has played 171 tests .surely you can point a few that can match...the ones that come to mind so immediately... ALL instances below are extreme extreme pressure situations in almost lost causes for India. SRT has had numerous opportunites to stand out. 1) Dravid's in Adelaide in 2003 - 550+ 1st innings score by Aus...At 3 down for not too many Dravid scores 220+ and takes India over the rope in the 4th innings ? 2) 2001 Kolkata Dravid in follow on for a seemingly lost cause? 3) LAxman's last 2 match winning knocks in SL and in Ind against Aus ..in historically lost causes for India ? 4) LAxman Kolkata 2001 ? 5) Lara's 153 and 253 at Bridgetown and Kingston against a rampaging Mcgrath in 98/99?

[Manny_Pacquiao]

...except for the fact that Ponting had to fight with 2 of the greatest bowlers of all time in Warne and Mcgrath as match winners for his side ..let alone other freaks like Adam Gilchrist - who so many times scored a blitzkreig match winning ton when Aussies found themselves as 150/5. ...except for the fact that Ponting has played far fewer series and has a higher MoS/series count. Ditto Viv Richards. Lara too playing for a piss poor losing WI team has a better MoM and MoS ratio.

and tendulkar has to fight for Mom and mos awards with sehwag, dravid, laxman, and numerous other all time great batsmen. same thing, isnt it. u are once again moving goalposts. so now its the ratio, but not the actual number? either way, tendulakr is still up there.

NO. ..i am interested in playing a fair game either way and not hyping a certain player way beyond his contribution to team India. SRT had numerous chances to play the steely knocks that LAxman has played so often - he has always failed to take us through when he has not had enough support. That is the quality I admire most in batsmen. That Chennai knock against Pak still hurts - LAx got us through in a worse situation at 8 wickets down against AUssies by sticking through with his severely fragile knees and back. His contribution in 2001 series in a lost cause in Kolkata doesn't need a mention. These are among his most high profile balls of steel performances. SRT supporters always blame the team when he fails in such situations . The MoM and MoS are just a very good perspective about how his records have altered or shaped series and matches for India. For someone who has played a ****ing 171 matches..it is not floor shattering.

he top scored in the 4th highest chase of all time. if that isnt a great performance than i dont know what is. he has the best batting average of any indian in matches won in 4th innings. in any case, i dont think u can rate laxman as a better player than tendulkar or as one of the greatest of all time because he just doesnt have the run scoring feats tendulkar has, even if he might have the greatest test innings of all time against his name. i dont know about u, but i moved on from the loss to pak in 1999. we whoop their ass loads of times and tendulkar's runs had a big contribution in that. our last 4th innings chase against pakistan had an unbeatean fifty from tendulkar...u can't complain about that

EXCUSES GALORE !!!! INdian selectors have by and large sucked. Captains have always had to fight to get and back the right team. The kind of clout that Tendulkar has had in Indian cricket - he could have had what he wanted . So all those are just excuses, I am afraid.

i dont see what the excuses are. his batting average of 51.34 as captain is a fact. and the rest of the things i said are also facts. like i said, this is all very qualitative and hypothetical, so i'm not going out of my way to argue it but it is 100% clear tendulkar didn't get the team he wanted, end of story. captains had little say in picking the team in indian cricket and u know that. one player cant overhaul an entire system of region based quotas. its not the same black and white situation as what u keep bringing up with border and australia. if you have players liike devang gandhi and msk prasad in your side, u won't win games. i guess the only question worth asking here is if you think border would have done better in the same situation tendulkar faced and vice versa? i dont think he would have done any better.

[patriot]

and tendulkar has to fight for Mom and mos awards with sehwag, dravid, laxman, and numerous other all time great batsmen. same thing, isnt it. u are once again moving goalposts. so now its the ratio, but not the actual number? either way, tendulakr is still up there.

Huh ? Isn't it common sense to use ratios when the other person has played anywhere between 40 -80 test matches less? And so Sehwag with 80 less tests had more MoS performances than SRT , till SRT won it against Aus a couple of days back. That is why he is branded as India's greatest ever match winning test batter. I still await one of those " countless " knocks where SRT has played knocks like the few I have stated ...he has had countless chances -that is for sure.

[Manny_Pacquiao]

Since there have been " countless " such situations ..for someone whos has played 171 tests .surely you can point a few that can match...the ones that come to mind so immediately... ALL instances below are extreme extreme pressure situations in almost lost causes for India. SRT has had numerous opportunites to stand out. 1) Dravid's in Adelaide in 2003 - 550+ 1st innings score by Aus...At 3 down for not too many Dravid scores 220+ and takes India over the rope in the 4th innings ? 2) 2001 Kolkata Dravid in follow on for a seemingly lost cause? 3) LAxman's last 2 match winning knocks in SL and in Ind against Aus ..in historically lost causes for India ? 4) LAxman Kolkata 2001 ? 5) Lara's 153 and 253 at Bridgetown and Kingston against a rampaging Mcgrath in 98/99?

u still havent told me what your criteria for measuring greatness is. al i see is subjective stuff where u define the goalposts and move them around when it suits and when it doesn't. anyway i was referring to innings where india would go 4/5 wickets down for nothing and he would end up scoring the most runs to allow india to stay in the match. i am talkign about innings liek the 169 vs SA in 1996 when he put up a 256 run partnership with azhar after india were 5 down and took donald apart. innings like that were common with him throughout the 90s. innigs like that 118 at perth which benaud calls one of the best innings he ahs ever seen. these are situations where everyone else failed and tendulkar didn't. tendulkar has some awesome match winning innings too: 155* vs australia 1998 set up an easy win for us, 103* vs england in the greatest chase ever in the history of indian cricket, 126 vs australia in the crucial 3rd test at chennai of the 2001 series with the series on the line, 55 against australia on an unplayable pitch at mumbai in 2004, 109 on a delhi turner against muralitharan who ripped through our batting lineup, a match saving hundred at old trafford in 1992 at the age of 19. so that's a few. tendulkar had a big role in some fo those matches u mentioned. laxman's two famous 4th innings wouldnt have been possible without tendulkar's 49 and 38. tendulkar delivered under pressure in these situations. of course laxman's inning of 281 is the greatest in the history of the game, u can't compare anyone's inning to that. this kind of inning and the avoiding of follow on to win the game has happened only 3 times in history. if u give it that much weightage then u would have to call laxman the greatest batsman of all time cos he did what no one else has ever done in history

[kabira]

>And so Sehwag with 80 less tests had more MoS performances than SRT , till SRT won it against Aus a couple of days back. That is why he is branded as India's greatest ever match winning test batter. Confused, confused, I am confused, so Sehwag is biggest match winner because he has MOS?? What about those extreme pressure situation. He has bullshit 2nd innings avg?? What about that?? Where the **** where Rahul's, Laxman's when Sachin toiled lone hand in Aus and SA.

[Manny_Pacquiao]

Huh ? Isn't it common sense to use ratios when the other person has played anywhere between 40 -80 test matches less? And so Sehwag with 80 less tests had more MoS performances than SRT , till SRT won it against Aus a couple of days back. That is why he is branded as India's greatest ever match winning test batter..

who has branded him as india's greatest ever match winning test batter? how is sehwag so great when he has a pathetic 2nd innings record? his batting average in 4th innings is 27. batting average in 4th innings in matches india won is 38. pales in comparison to tendulkar's 72.

[Shakthi]

Huh ? Isn't it common sense to use ratios when the other person has played anywhere between 40 -80 test matches less? And so Sehwag with 80 less tests had more MoS performances than SRT , till SRT won it against Aus a couple of days back. That is why he is branded as India's greatest ever match winning test batter. I still await one of those " countless " knocks where SRT has played knocks like the few I have stated ...he has had countless chances -that is for sure.

Shut up will u Sachin took India to 1996 finals and who took india to 2003 finals who scored twin centuries in sharjah and who saved india in last game when india were 31/2 u anti sachin fans are annoying for everything u have to criticise sachin when he scores runs its for records when he doesnt then he cant take pressure . Over 1 billion supporters pressure on him to perform show me any crickter who had that much pressure . Allan border what has he achieved apart from world cup ask him to play like sachin with pressure and see how he performs not long ago People were calling Ponting the greatest captain now all of sudden majority of aussies are asking him to resign as captain.

[Guest BossBhai]

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