Greatest Test Cricketer Ever

[ZodiaC]

Well if you give that answer' date=' I will fire it too.[/quote'] :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:

[vaibhav_delhi]

Well if you give that answer' date=' I will fire it too.[/quote'] :haha::haha:

[Gunner_Mania]

Well if you give that answer' date=' I will fire it too.[/quote'] :rotfl:

[akshayxyz]

Well if you give that answer' date=' I will fire it too.[/quote'] brilliant.:hysterical:

[Sid]

Well if you give that answer' date=' I will fire it too.[/quote'] :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:

[Lurker]

I Imran Khan has to be the greatest, if you point a gun at my head and ask me to pick one. Following him very closely would be Sobers for me. Let the fights begin...

The most fascinating thing about that comment of yours, and others who have similar sentiment, is that when Imran was playing there was not a remote mention of how he was the greatest cricketer of his time, let alone of all times! That tag went to King Richards and then there used to be open debate on Sunny, 4 all-rounders, Chappell, Windies pacers, Miandad, Border etc etc. Funny how after 20 years of retirement people suddenly elevated Imran to a position he never occupied even at his peak! xxx

[King Tendulkar]

Well if you give that answer' date=' I will fire it too.[/quote'] :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:

[Laaloo]

The most fascinating thing about that comment of yours, and others who have similar sentiment, is that when Imran was playing there was not a remote mention of how he was the greatest cricketer of his time, let alone of all times! That tag went to King Richards and then there used to be open debate on Sunny, 4 all-rounders, Chappell, Windies pacers, Miandad, Border etc etc. Funny how after 20 years of retirement people suddenly elevated Imran to a position he never occupied even at his peak! xxx

It was a conspiracy!!!

[Sachinism]

The most fascinating thing about that comment of yours, and others who have similar sentiment, is that when Imran was playing there was not a remote mention of how he was the greatest cricketer of his time, let alone of all times! That tag went to King Richards and then there used to be open debate on Sunny, 4 all-rounders, Chappell, Windies pacers, Miandad, Border etc etc. Funny how after 20 years of retirement people suddenly elevated Imran to a position he never occupied even at his peak! xxx

Excellent point.

[Nirvanam]

The most fascinating thing about that comment of yours, and others who have similar sentiment, is that when Imran was playing there was not a remote mention of how he was the greatest cricketer of his time, let alone of all times! That tag went to King Richards and then there used to be open debate on Sunny, 4 all-rounders, Chappell, Windies pacers, Miandad, Border etc etc. Funny how after 20 years of retirement people suddenly elevated Imran to a position he never occupied even at his peak! xxx

Probably because the passage of time tells us gives us a lot more unbiased perspectives than when you are experiencing the events? For ex - the Batting Buddha's 90's performances are revered more these days than during the 90's. I remember watching Desert Storm and feeling bad that we didn't win that game in the final league game...when the event unfolded in front of my eyes I did not think of it as a single handed almost unparalleled performance fighting off even the natural elements. But the time between 1998 and now makes me wonder how the Buddha did it...amazed I am. Similarly Kapil's 175, Richards 189, Lara's 153, etc.

[Lurker]

Probably because the passage of time tells us gives us a lot more unbiased perspectives than when you are experiencing the events? For ex - the Batting Buddha's 90's performances are revered more these days than during the 90's. I remember watching Desert Storm and feeling bad that we didn't win that game in the final league game...when the event unfolded in front of my eyes I did not think of it as a single handed almost unparalleled performance fighting off even the natural elements. But the time between 1998 and now makes me wonder how the Buddha did it...amazed I am. Similarly Kapil's 175' date= Richards 189, Lara's 153, etc.

Possibly. It could also be that with passage of time one stops judging players by their performance, forgets their memorable matches and ends up resorting to statistics to judge. I am not saying that you do but in case of Imran this is where he scores, his stats are fantastic even though his performance was hardly that. One of the ways of judging a cricketer, as a fan, is the kind of fear/awe he strikes in you when he plays against your country. Richards would scare me, Marshall would do that too, Miandad would annoy me, Imran??? Never did anything for me :winky: Cant remember him coming on to bowl and getting afraid(that includes watching 6/14 at Sharjah..did not see the Indian series in Pakistan), Akram would do that as would Shoaib Akhtar at his peak. Mcgrath did. Imran never did. As for batting the less said the better. The man played 20 years, scored at supposedly 50 and yet his best innings is 72 in 1992 WC finals(which in my opinion was hardly a superb innings in the first place). xxx

[Bublu Bhuyan]

Possibly. It could also be that with passage of time one stops judging players by their performance, forgets their memorable matches and ends up resorting to statistics to judge. I am not saying that you do but in case of Imran this is where he scores, his stats are fantastic even though his performance was hardly that. One of the ways of judging a cricketer, as a fan, is the kind of fear/awe he strikes in you when he plays against your country. Richards would scare me, Marshall would do that too, Miandad would annoy me, Imran??? Never did anything for me :winky: Cant remember him coming on to bowl and getting afraid(that includes watching 6/14 at Sharjah..did not see the Indian series in Pakistan), Akram would do that as would Shoaib Akhtar at his peak. Mcgrath did. Imran never did.

You seem to have been following cricket since the dark ages. An honest question, why do you think Imran never scared you? He has a respectable bowling average of 24.04 against India with 94 wickets.

As for batting the less said the better. The man played 20 years' date=' scored at supposedly 50 and yet his best innings is 72 in 1992 WC finals(which in my opinion was hardly a superb innings in the first place).[/quote'] Weren't we speaking of Test cricket?

[Nirvanam]

Possibly. It could also be that with passage of time one stops judging players by their performance, forgets their memorable matches and ends up resorting to statistics to judge. I am not saying that you do but in case of Imran this is where he scores, his stats are fantastic even though his performance was hardly that. One of the ways of judging a cricketer, as a fan, is the kind of fear/awe he strikes in you when he plays against your country. Richards would scare me, Marshall would do that too, Miandad would annoy me, Imran??? Never did anything for me :winky: Cant remember him coming on to bowl and getting afraid(that includes watching 6/14 at Sharjah..did not see the Indian series in Pakistan), Akram would do that as would Shoaib Akhtar at his peak. Mcgrath did. Imran never did. As for batting the less said the better. The man played 20 years, scored at supposedly 50 and yet his best innings is 72 in 1992 WC finals(which in my opinion was hardly a superb innings in the first place). xxx

although I was too young at the time of the 82 tour...Imran did scare the hell out of every Indian fan in that series plus that small guy by name Gavaskar...Sunny sez in commentary even today that all he wanted to do was to get to the non strikers end when Imran was bowling. Forget the stats for a moment, where do you think Pakistan cricket would be had it not been the Niazi guiding it to its heights. Which team managed to look the Windies in the eye during the mid-late 80's? The Niazi led by example...he was not a tactician...he led by example and that is why I grudgingly have him ahead of my hero Kapil...well not grudgingly now but until about the mid 90's. When I was growing up (the first game I saw was Ind-NZ semi final of the Benson and Hedges Cup 1985) Imran was a threat for me...even in the 1989 Indian tour to Pak and thru out the Sharjah days. Wasim was second and Wasim became a threat in my eyes only in the 90's not till then.

[Lurker]

You seem to have been following cricket since the dark ages.

Dark ages, golden age...take your pick. Openers faced hostile fast bowlers without body armour and no bouncer restrictions. No fielder restrictions and no bats like the club weilded by Hanuman where a mishit goes for a six. Clive Lloyd would carry the heaviest bat back then (Big Bertha) which was still under 3 pounds. Sachin carried bat heavier than 3 pounds even though he was a feet, and a dozens of pounds, lighter than Clive.

An honest question, why do you think Imran never scared you? He has a respectable bowling average of 24.04 against India with 94 wickets.

Because he didnt. His numbers are boosted by 40 wicket series in which he was phenomenal. I didnt see it so cant comment, and I wont get into ball tampering issue, but of the matches I saw he never struck a fear in me. Even when he dismissed Gavaskar first ball at Jaipur (Zia Ul Haq had flown in as special guest and was ecstatic). I can remember 6/14 at Sharjah where he kept getting wickets and I can attest, without being arrogant or in denial, that it was not a scary moment. It was kind of like when Walsh took 5/1 in a one dayer. Great display but hardly lethal. On the other hand when Wasim would bowl it did strike fear in me. In the Bangalore Test that India lost (1987) I remember Imran coming to bowl and not feeling a darn thing. Of course he was old and was hardly bowling, Akram on the other hand would seem like getting a wicket. Incidentally in the 6/14 game at Sharjah, Kapil took 3 wickets, scored a brisk 30 or so in a low scoring game and effected a run out. That was always the case, Kapil the all-rounder, Imran the better bowler(in first half) and a better batsman in 2nd, hardly the two at the same time.

Weren't we speaking of Test cricket?

Exactly. We talk of cricket and arguably the greatest cricketer with a average of about 50 at a certain stage of his career and I am at a loss to remember any of his innings of note. Even his best fans remember his 72 in 1992 WC finals as possibly his greatest innings, that itself tells you a story. xxx

[Lurker]

although I was too young at the time of the 82 tour...Imran did scare the hell out of every Indian fan in that series plus that small guy by name Gavaskar...Sunny sez in commentary even today that all he wanted to do was to get to the non strikers end when Imran was bowling.

And Asif Iqbal suggested Kapil was the difference between India and Pakistan when India beat Pakistan at home in early 80s. To be fair Imran was hardly at his peak as a bowler, what with injuries etc, but if you are going to find statements there are many that could be found.

Forget the stats for a moment, where do you think Pakistan cricket would be had it not been the Niazi guiding it to its heights. Which team managed to look the Windies in the eye during the mid-late 80's? The Niazi led by example...he was not a tactician...he led by example and that is why I grudgingly have him ahead of my hero Kapil...well not grudgingly now but until about the mid 90's.

To be honest I do not have a perfect answer for that. I could see where you are coming from in the sense he brought in a sense of beleive in Pakistan team and also picked many a talented youngsters. However the flip side of this is that it completly destroyed the Pakistan cricketing structure. Imran would hardly play in Pakistan's domestic cricket, he was notorious for often coming to local games via helicopter and obviously picked players like Waqar, Aaqib, Inzzy out of nowhere(it is a misconception that Imran picked Akram, Javed Miandad did that). However it also made sure that people who were coming through the domestic cricket were hardly given a second glimpse. Imran did as he pleased, with good results for Pakistan, but if today you see Pakistan lacking a cricket structure atleast some of the critique has to be shared by him. To compare Imran with any other skipper in this regard is futile. Kapil Dev and Sunil Gavaskar, as great as they were, never had the same control in picking a team. Kapil tried a few players, as did Sunny, and they were promptly kicked out. Richards never had a similar say in selecting West Indies team or Allan Border or Mike Brearely. Even historically folks like Benaud, Worrell, Bradman (great skippers all) never had this kind of control. So yeah my decision is split. I can argue both ways really.

When I was growing up (the first game I saw was Ind-NZ semi final of the Benson and Hedges Cup 1985) Imran was a threat for me...even in the 1989 Indian tour to Pak and thru out the Sharjah days. Wasim was second and Wasim became a threat in my eyes only in the 90's not till then.

Come on Benson Hedges 1985, it was all a Kapil Dev story. If one watches only one game of cricket and sees 1985 WC finals and then compares Kapil Dev and Imran he would go nuts that these two are being compared, let alone Imran being considered the better...or the greatest. xxx

[Nirvanam]

Come on Benson Hedges 1985, it was all a Kapil Dev story. If one watches only one game of cricket and sees 1985 WC finals and then compares Kapil Dev and Imran he would go nuts that these two are being compared, let alone Imran being considered the better...or the greatest. xxx

I think you misinterpreted my mentioning of BnH...it was only to let you know since when I have been watching cricket. And here's the thing....we were all playing outside my house and I was batting, then suddenly my mom comes out and shouts Kapil Dev is batting...all the kids run in...and I am still in the 'unknow' of cricket players at the age of 7-8. Then seeing no one was around to bowl at me, I sadly walk back into my house where all the kids are sitting and watching full on. The first thing I see is a Richard Hadlee ball square cut to the ropes in that elegant manner...God what a sight...since then he's been me hero...lolz! That incident is almost 26 years now...and I remember it so vividly...beaut!

[Lurker]

I think you misinterpreted my mentioning of BnH...it was only to let you know since when I have been watching cricket. And here's the thing....we were all playing outside my house and I was batting' date=' then suddenly my mom comes out and shouts Kapil Dev is batting...all the kids run in...and I am still in the 'unknow' of cricket players at the age of 7-8. Then seeing no one was around to bowl at me, I sadly walk back into my house where all the kids are sitting and watching full on. The first thing I see is a Richard Hadlee ball square cut to the ropes in that elegant manner...God what a sight...since then he's been me hero...lolz! That incident is almost 26 years now...and I remember it so vividly...beaut![/quote'] Indeed. That game, and possibly even the tournament, is one of the most underrated moments in Indian cricket. Fans who go gaga over small achievements should probably watch a video of this game(1985 Benson Hedges semi final). You are right of course about the game. India were playing NZ and the run rate was way behind the asking rate. Colonel Vengsarkar was holding fort. Kapil arrives, sticks around an over or so and then starts blasting. Of all the people Richard Hadlee got the brunt with 4 fours in an over. Then Colonel gets infected and starts his own shots, which he was great to watch when in full flow. In small time India romp home with ample overs to spare. Some might think it as nostalgia, maybe it is, but those who were lucky enough to watch it would remember it as one of the greatest sight on cricket field. xxx

[Nirvanam]

Indeed. That game, and possibly even the tournament, is one of the most underrated moments in Indian cricket. Fans who go gaga over small achievements should probably watch a video of this game(1985 Benson Hedges semi final). You are right of course about the game. India were playing NZ and the run rate was way behind the asking rate. Colonel Vengsarkar was holding fort. Kapil arrives, sticks around an over or so and then starts blasting. Of all the people Richard Hadlee got the brunt with 4 fours in an over. Then Colonel gets infected and starts his own shots, which he was great to watch when in full flow. In small time India romp home with ample overs to spare. Some might think it as nostalgia, maybe it is, but those who were lucky enough to watch it would remember it as one of the greatest sight on cricket field. xxx

It's all Gavva's captaincy...he knew exactly when to unleash the Devil in Kapil and he used Kapil's batting talent like no other captain could not even Kapil himself. he would send Kapil up the order routinely to set up the game for us even in Tests. I remember later in the 80's there was an MCC v/s ROW game...can't remember if it was First Class or Limited over but Gavva was the captain and he sent Kapil in at 3...Kapsy Topsy scores some 93/97 runs in what 70 odd balls and sets up the game

[thevortex]

Lurker - I believe we agree on several counts as far as Imran Khan is concerned. However, the threat aspect that you speak about, in my opinion, need not at all be a measure of how great (or otherwise) the cricketer was. Richard Hadlee would hardly strike fear in you! But there he was - picking wickets pell mell! So did Walsh. Who in the world would rank Walsh as the world's best bowler? Yet he was there at the very top for a significant time. Imran at his best as a bowler was much faster and craftier than Kapil Dev. If you forget Wasim Akram and compare Imran's threat as a bowler with Kapil Dev, then I think its an easy decision in favour of the Pathan. As far as batting is concerned, Imran was definitely not the more talented. But then talent and results have not always been best friends. He just did the best he could and the results do speak of this - after a fashion. He definitely is not a batsman who deserves a 50+ average (just going by your post) but he was definitely far more dependable as a batsman than Kapil Dev or Botham. In the end this combination (not even considering his captaincy) elevates him above those two contemporaries, I feel.

[Nirvanam]

Lurker - I believe we agree on several counts as far as Imran Khan is concerned. However, the threat aspect that you speak about, in my opinion, need not at all be a measure of how great (or otherwise) the cricketer was. Richard Hadlee would hardly strike fear in you! But there he was - picking wickets pell mell! So did Walsh. Who in the world would rank Walsh as the world's best bowler? Yet he was there at the very top for a significant time. Imran at his best as a bowler was much faster and craftier than Kapil Dev. If you forget Wasim Akram and compare Imran's threat as a bowler with Kapil Dev, then I think its an easy decision in favour of the Pathan. As far as batting is concerned, Imran was definitely not the more talented. But then talent and results have not always been best friends. He just did the best he could and the results do speak of this - after a fashion. He definitely is not a batsman who deserves a 50+ average (just going by your post) but he was definitely far more dependable as a batsman than Kapil Dev or Botham. In the end this combination (not even considering his captaincy) elevates him above those two contemporaries, I feel.

Yep, among the Big 4 he was the biggest followed by Kapil-Botham and then by Hadlee