Rumoured: Butt faces seven-year ban in spot-fixing case: Sources - TOI

[Jersey #10]

Fact 1. Pak cricketers not paid well Fact 2. Pak cricketers not playing in IPL Fact 3. Its conspiracy of Indians to bring Pak cricket down.

Thank YOu

[Zap_Brannigan]

Pakistan players do it because they are not paid well compared to other countries.

:hysterical::hysterical: Wow...does that mean that 3 billion poor people have the right to smaller sentence if they steal?

[Shakthi]

Thank YOu

A gold smith always blames the gold.

[DomainK]

Agree on the ethics part but do you still think a second chance should be given to Aamer as far as penalty is concerned? There are mitigating factors like he could have been influenced by the captain. If that's the case then in my opinion a life ban is harsh on him and 2-5 years is reasonable. He will always bear the stigma if he comes back no doubt. A lot of discussion on this topic is buried in this thread and I will quote what you said earlier in that thread: Keeping the moral dilemma aside, if Aamer is given a few years ban then it means ICC would like to give him a second chance and professionally he is entitled to play again. My prediction is that the cricketing body will allow some room for rehabilitation.

I have some sympathy for Aamir and he might be given a lighter sentence than normal. But I was not talking about the extent of guilt and proportionate punishment. I was talking from a fan's point of view. The post I replied to was busy calculating in how much time the players could be back playing for the team and there was an underlying hope and joy in that. It's almost as if he wants to see them all back as soon as possible and he does not seem to have any problems with what the players have done. IMHO, thats plain wrong.

[Nova]

The post I replied to was busy calculating in how much time the players could be back playing for the team and there was an underlying hope and joy in that. It's almost as if he wants to see them all back as soon as possible and he does not seem to have any problems with what the players have done. IMHO' date=' thats plain wrong.[/quote'] Definitely agree. It would absolutely send a wrong message if Asif/Aamir are allowed to get off scott free.

[Ram]

Lol, 2 years for Amir and Asif? What were they caught doing, stealing cookies from a candy store? If they are convicted of match-fixing charges (and thats what it is. Lets not use the word 'spot-fixing'.. It makes it sound as though it is some sort of lesser crime), then their cheater-in-chief Butt deserves nothing less than a life-ban and his co-conspirators at least 5-7 years out of the game. Anything less than that will absolutely dilute the scale of the crime and make a mockery of the gravity of the situation. Lets not forget whats at stake here - This is not an isolated case of 3 misguided cricketers who went on errant ways. This is the question of the credibility of the entire sport. And whether cricket fans all over the world find the sport they watch on t.v credible or not will decide the ultimate surivival of the sport itself, or at least its international form. The sanctity of the game is what is at stake here and that is completely and unequivocally, non-negotiable. And another important reason why the sentence should be much more harsher than what it is being suggested in the article (which seems pretty dodgy to begin with anyway), is just pure mathematics. Just pause for one moment to consider the underlying numbers here – A centrally contracted Pakistani cricketer stands to earn anywhere b/w $50,000 – $1,00,000 from his board depending on how good or bad he is, and also other monies from playing abroad (England) and endorsements. But, it is only a select few who get contracts outside (And even that is only sparse pickings, since Pakistanis are no longer invited to play in the IPL) and sponsorship deals. So, an average Pakistani player, if he’s suspended for a couple of years, stands to lose anywhere b/w $1,00,000 - $1,50,000. But the amount of money confiscated from Salman Butt’s room alone during the raid in his hotel room was 30,000 British pounds. And my belief is that this was only a portion of the payments from the bookies to this crook. What is the point in suspending players for a couple of years, when it is pretty evident that the money that they otherwise make from their match-fixing exploits can more than cover-up for these financial losses? So if I am Pakistani player in this situation, then this is like an invitation to match-fix. Come to think of it, if you’re caught, you get suspended only for a couple of years, but those losses can be more than made up for, using the kickbacks from the bookies. The other, more alluring scenario is, what if I don’t get caught? Then that is the best of both worlds, is it not? That is why, anyone convicted of match-fixing, should pay a price that is appropriately debilitating.

[Pioneer]

Lol, 2 years for Amir and Asif? What were they caught doing, stealing cookies from a candy store? If they are convicted of match-fixing charges (and thats what it is. Lets not use the word 'spot-fixing'.. It makes it sound as though it is some sort of lesser crime), then their cheater-in-chief Butt deserves nothing less than a life-ban and his co-conspirators at least 5-7 years out of the game. Anything less than that will absolutely dilute the scale of the crime and make a mockery of the gravity of the situation. Lets not forget whats at stake here - This is not an isolated case of 3 misguided cricketers who went on errant ways. This is the question of the credibility of the entire sport. And whether cricket fans all over the world find the sport they watch on t.v credible or not will decide the ultimate surivival of the sport itself, or at least its international form. The sanctity of the game is what is at stake here and that is completely and unequivocally, non-negotiable. And another important reason why the sentence should be much more harsher than what it is being suggested in the article (which seems pretty dodgy to begin with anyway), is just pure mathematics. Just pause for one moment to consider the underlying numbers here – A centrally contracted Pakistani cricketer stands to earn anywhere b/w $50,000 – $1,00,000 from his board depending on how good or bad he is, and also other monies from playing abroad (England) and endorsements. But, it is only a select few who get contracts outside (And even that is only sparse pickings, since Pakistanis are no longer invited to play in the IPL) and sponsorship deals. So, an average Pakistani player, if he’s suspended for a couple of years, stands to lose anywhere b/w $1,00,000 - $1,50,000. But the amount of money confiscated from Salman Butt’s room alone during the raid in his hotel room was 30,000 British pounds. And my belief is that this was only a portion of the payments from the bookies to this crook. What is the point in suspending players for a couple of years, when it is pretty evident that the money that they otherwise make from their match-fixing exploits can more than cover-up for these financial losses? So if I am Pakistani player in this situation, then this is like an invitation to match-fix. Come to think of it, if you’re caught, you get suspended only for a couple of years, but those losses can be more than made up for, using the kickbacks from the bookies. The other, more alluring scenario is, what if I don’t get caught? Then that is the best of both worlds, is it not? That is why, anyone convicted of match-fixing, should pay a price that is appropriately debilitating.

But surely spot-fixing is not as severe a crime as match-fixing? Correct me if I'm wrong but match-fixing is pre-determining the entire outcome of a match right? In other words, losing deliberately if you are the team fixing the game. Spot-fixing is controlling specific moments of games for example bowling deliberate no-balls, wides, beamers etc... but not necessarily changing the outcome of the game. Agreed that both are equal in terms of dishonesty and dishonour and both are disgusting for the game but to change their spot-fixing charges into match-fixing charges is unfair in my opinion because at the end of the day, however sickening their actions were, they were spot-fixing not match-fixing ( or at least thats what we know right now). So I'll have to disagree with you and say yes, it is a lesser crime, purely in terms of it's influence on a cricket match. About your last point regarding the money, you have only mentioned the financial factor in getting banned, how about the fact that you will not be playing for your country for years and the fact that you will forever be shamed, especially in such a country as Pakistan (agreed some of us have short memories, but the tainted player can expect to receive his fair share of grief from the public). There are many things that follow a player after being banned, not just the money they lose, so therefore I don't think it is such an easy thing to match-fix, get banned, get back in the team and not lose that much money- as you say. I am in no way defending these players, believe me, I am just trying to understand why you call for such harsh punishments, especially to Aamer, 5-7 years ban? If you take a moment to zoom-out of the whole situation and look at Aamer's case, what he did exactly, how he did it, wouldn't a 5-7 year ban seem sort of unreasonable?

[Ram]

But surely spot-fixing is not as severe a crime as match-fixing? Correct me if I'm wrong but match-fixing is pre-determining the entire outcome of a match right? In other words' date=' losing deliberately if you are the team fixing the game. Spot-fixing is controlling specific moments of games for example bowling deliberate no-balls, wides, beamers etc... but not necessarily changing the outcome of the game. Agreed that both are equal in terms of dishonesty and dishonour and both are disgusting for the game but to change their spot-fixing charges into match-fixing charges is unfair in my opinion because at the end of the day, however sickening their actions were, they were spot-fixing not match-fixing ( or at least thats what we know right now). So I'll have to disagree with you and say yes, it is a lesser crime, purely in terms of it's influence on a cricket match.[/quote'] Absolutely wrong. For all practical purposes, 'Match-fixing' is nothing but a collection of 'spot-fixing'. What do you think happens when an individual or a group of individuals get together to fix a game? You think both the teams sit together to hash out the details of how to fix that match? No, of course not. Its essentially player A telling player B 'You get out stumped to this bowler' or telling to player C 'you drop that catch in the slips..'. These are individual events as well, but they influence the ultimate outcome of the match. What is being labeled rather softly as 'spot-fixing' is pretty much the same as well, except for the fact that on this occasion, at least as far as we know, no Pakistani player deliberately chose to get out or drop a catch. Everyone takes this lightly because it was just a no-ball and nothing really significantly seemingly came out of it. But imagine, what if the batsmen had edged that ball? or was bowled? That is absolutely influencing the game. In my view, there's no such thing as 'spot-fixing'. You either play the game fair and hard, or you cheat. On this occasion, the Pakistani trio did.

About your last point regarding the money, you have only mentioned the financial factor in getting banned, how about the fact that you will not be playing for your country for years and the fact that you will forever be shamed, especially in such a country as Pakistan (agreed some of us have short memories, but the tainted player can expect to receive his fair share of grief from the public). There are many things that follow a player after being banned, not just the money they lose, so therefore I don't think it is such an easy thing to match-fix, get banned, get back in the team and not lose that much money- as you say.

You just answered your question yourself. Part of the problem in Pakistan is the utter stupidity and feebleness is dealing with dodgy players. How many times have players been apparently suspended, only to come back within months? Its a chronic problem in your cricket that starts right from the top echelons of PCB and goes right down to the fans on the ground. The fans are willing to accept anyone back into the fold as long as, in their opinion, that player is a match-winner. This has proven to be the case repeatedly, over and over again. I dont need to list the examples to prove my case, but the most irresistible instance of the manifestation of this self-destructive attitude was the appointment of Shahid Afridi as captain of the test team, within weeks of his ball-munching scandal. So bottom line is, even if you get caught in Pakistan, the price to pay, by and large, has been minimal. At worst, the players spend anywhere between 6 months and a year out of the game. And after that, they're back, full refreshed and re-energized. And reg. the other factors, you must understand that, match-fixing is one of the HARDEST crimes to detect. Come to think of it, you cannot stop a player from voluntarily choosing to work hand-in-glove with a bookie and fix matches for him. We all saw the action live when Aamir and Asif overstepped, but how many of us thought there was something nefarious behind it? Everything came to light because the undercover reporter for NOTW must have accidentally stumbled upon this whole betting ring. Plus, Mazhar Majeed is a dumb idiot who didnt suspect that his 'client' could be an undercover reporter and accidentally spilled all the beans. So if you do it cleverly, it is almost impossible to detect. It was the Pakistani players unbelievable bad luck that they happened to deal with a loud-mouth. Match-fixing has happened, is probably happening and will continue to happen, because the risk of getting caught is minimal, especially if you do it well. There are only ebbs and flows in its frequency.

I am in no way defending these players, believe me, I am just trying to understand why you call for such harsh punishments, especially to Aamer, 5-7 years ban? If you take a moment to zoom-out of the whole situation and look at Aamer's case, what he did exactly, how he did it, wouldn't a 5-7 year ban seem sort of unreasonable?

I thought I was extremely lenient when i said Aamir should get at least 5-7 years. The only reason I said that was I am not fully aware of the technicalities of the case and what the law actually says. But reg. this whole Aamir thing - everybody is saying that his punishment should be lenient because he's young. Come off it, he's not 12. He's almost 19 (which probably means his real age is more around 21-22). He's old enough to know whats right and whats wrong. What exactly happened between him and Butt, no one knows as of yet. But thats absolutely no excuse to treat him like a juvenile.

[The Outsider]

The ICC's code of conduct has no distinction between 'match' and 'spot' fixing. All actions in which a player took money to deliberately influence the outcome of the either part or whole of the match are on the same footing.

[Rajiv]

How can there be a lesser crime when it comes to cheating in a game? A Cheat is a Cheat, there is no room for sympathy

[jf1gp_1]

Aamir is a shi-tty bowler who is hyped up by pakis since he is the only avg player among the crap they have produced in the last 5yrs. I hope he isnt banned i want that mediocre player to play and he will be dropped soon after he is smashed by the likes of raina. Since Pakis themselves dont want butt and asif to be banned ICC should not ban either of them; its upto individual countries if they want to play when other team is fixing games.

[Pioneer]

Fair enough Marirs I see your point but what I was saying about match-fixing was that even before the game is started the result of the match is known, whereas for spot-fixing you would still not know right thus not completely controlling the game. And yes Rajiv I agree, a cheat is a cheat, but stealing 10 dollars and 100 dollars is a little different isn't it even though they both are stealing ?

[Rajiv]

Fair enough Marirs I see your point but what I was saying about match-fixing was that even before the game is started the result of the match is known' date=' whereas for spot-fixing you would still not know right thus not completely controlling the game. And yes Rajiv I agree, a cheat is a cheat, [b']but stealing 10 dollars and 100 dollars is a little different isn't it even though they both are stealing ?

In sport, the fact that u do it for 50 cents is like game over

[Pioneer]

In sport' date=' the fact that u do it for 50 cents is like game over[/quote'] True true just trying to compare in terms of punishments

[DomainK]

There should be strict punishment. It's not just about punishing them for what they have done. It's also about setting the right examples. The fans who have been supporting them all along have already set very bad examples for the future generation of cricketers.

[CSK Fan]

Amir doesn't deserve a life ban, he is only 18 and this is a first offence commited. Why should he be made a "example off" ? Other players in previous years have been caught but ICC have not acted because they are from the big nations- Michael Holding admitted it on live tv. Shane Warne and more recently Suresh Raina.

This was the same logic used by Pak fans when Asif was caught the first time. Why should he be made an example of. Look what it cost you now. He has led young Amir into mischief When will you fans learn that short term sacrifice will only help you have a stronger team in the future. Otherwsie in the future, you are going to lose 100 other Amirs As for the example of Warne and Raina, you prove to be a typical ignorant fan who makes up stuff Did you know that ICC was not a signatory to WADA at that time and if ACB wanted there would have been no ban at all? So ACB actually proactively banned Warne where they could have completely covered up and not banned one of their most important player. Completely opposite of what PCB has done As for Raina, do you have any clue about what happened? How are players who clearly got caught fixing being compared to Raina?

[CSK Fan]

Pakistan players do it because they are not paid well compared to other countries.

Yet you guys are the first ones to claim that its a very good thing for Pak players to miss out on IPL. confused much?