Should Raina play instead of Kohli to give a part time bowling option ?

[Ultimate_Game]

^ Morkel's batting can at best be compared to Afridi. I agree that there is no spot for Raina in the current Indian team, but to compare his batting to a slogger like Morkel is disgraceful really. Since you were talking about stats, here is one - Morkel's ODI average after 51 matches is a handsome 22.

And that 22 comes batting at 7 or 8 and not at 5 where Raina bats. He plays a very similar role to what Pathan plays for us and gets fewer chances. Whatever I saw of him, especially the odi series against Aus in Aus, he wasn't a slogger and was pretty good. Plus you re-inforced the point I was trying to make that players like Morkel are good lower down the order for providing quick late order runs and providing bowling options. But you will never drop a batsman like Kohli or in SA's case AB DeVilliers to accomodate them.

[The Outsider]

And that 22 comes batting at 7 or 8 and not at 5 where Raina bats. He plays a very similar role to what Pathan plays for us and gets fewer chances. Whatever I saw of him' date=' especially the odi series against Aus in Aus, he wasn't a slogger and was pretty good. Plus you re-inforced the point I was trying to make that players like Morkel are good lower down the order for providing quick late order runs and providing bowling options. But you will never drop a batsman like Kohli or in SA's case AB DeVilliers to accomodate them.[/quote'] 1. I never said Kohli should be dropped or Raina selected and reiterated so in my post that you have quoted. 2. You were the one who brought a comparison between Raina and Morkel by saying that South Africa are so strong that they would never play Raina. Personally, I think Raina would have a good chance of making it to the South African side in place of Duminy on India pitches. Regarding Morkel, as I said at best he can be compared to Afridi as a batsman - a limited, mindless (not as much as Afridi) slogger. Look at his overall performance and you'll see. PS : Please don't bring in IPL to justify his performances. I don't consider it cricket.

[Ultimate_Game]

He has been a tried and tested intl. failure,you have come up with his 2 performances which were again 2 years back .I may have been little bit harsh by terming him a slogger :--D but fact of the matter is you cant compare him in batting with someone like Raina. As far as bowling is concerned,I have seen enough of his bowling ,never have I seen him go for less than 6RPO ,he is always targeted by a batting side and almost always ends up giving away more runs than anyother bowler in display :giggle: Anyways point is Kohli has to play ahead of Raina stay on that,lets not drift threads attention to Raina vs Morkel :P

Morkel's bowling is targeted by opponents as HE's their weakest bowling link. After facing the likes of Steyn, Morne Morkel, Kallis, Tsosobe (or Nel/Langvelldt etc. earlier) he is bound to be targeted. His job was to provide a few overs of bowling plus he picked up wickets to boot. If Raina will be used by India regularly, as OP suggests he should be, our opponents will taget him as well and he will disappear for plenty of runs too.

[Ultimate_Game]

1. I never said Kohli should be dropped or Raina selected and reiterated so in my post that you have quoted. 2. You were the one who brought a comparison between Raina and Morkel by saying that South Africa are so strong that they would never play Raina. Personally, I think Raina would have a good chance of making it to the South African side in place of Duminy on India pitches. Regarding Morkel, as I said at best he can be compared to Afridi as a batsman - a limited, mindless (not as much as Afridi) slogger. Look at his overall performance and you'll see. PS : Please don't bring in IPL to justify his performances. I don't consider it cricket.

1. You have missed the entire thread then. It's all about Kohli being dropped to make room for raina and all my posts are regarding the same. 2. As for Raina walking into the SA team, don't think SA will drop Duminy to make room for Raina. Duminy is much more solid and consistent batsman. The reason I brought up Morkel was as SA prefer to play all-rounders lower down the order like Pollock, Klusener, Albie Morkel etc. who can bowl and get quick runs down the order. SA batting is solid enough that they generally don't play a specialist batsman lower down the order and Raina wouldn't fit the bill of an all-rounder in the SA team.

[Sid]

Morkel's bowling is targeted by opponents as HE's their weakest bowling. After facing the likes of Steyn' date=' Morne Morkel, Kallis, Tsosobe (or Nel/Langvelldt etc. earlier) he is bound to be targeted. His job was to provide a few overs of bowling plus he picked up wickets to boot. If Raina will be used by India regularly, as OP suggests he should be, our opponents will taget him as well and he will disappear for plenty of runs too.[/quote'] He was targeted and used to be hit for plenty becoz he wasnt good enough and mind you he used to play as an all rounder ,not as a batsman who bowls a bit ,so he was expected to bowl his quota of 10 overs. As far as OP is concerned I find it nonsensical to play a batsman in the team for his part time bowling :cantstop:.

[asterix]

Whatever combinations they make, these overpaid rockstars should ensure that they win the remaining matches..

[Sachin=GOD]

He was targeted and used to be hit for plenty becoz he wasnt good enough and mind you he used to play as an all rounder ,not as a batsman who bowls a bit ,so he was expected to bowl his quota of 10 overs. As far as OP is concerned I find it nonsensical to play a batsman in the team for his part time bowling :cantstop:.

Yuvraj has been part of the team simply because of his part time bowling for quite some time IMO :giggle:

[The Outsider]

1. You have missed the entire thread then. It's all about Kohli being dropped to make room for raina and all my posts are regarding the same. 2. As for Raina walking into the SA team, don't think SA will drop Duminy to make room for Raina. Duminy is much more solid and consistent batsman. The reason I brought up Morkel was as SA prefer to play all-rounders lower down the order like Pollock, Klusener, Albie Morkel etc. who can bowl and get quick runs down the order. SA batting is solid enough that they generally don't play a specialist batsman lower down the order and Raina wouldn't fit the bill of an all-rounder in the SA team.

On what basis? Both have been very ordinary in test matches, and both have been very good in ODIs. On Indian pitches, Raina has more utility than Duminy. I think your bracketing of Raina as a lower order hitter is off. He is a proper batsman, perhaps not test class, but that's a different issue. In ODIs he has shown to play all different kind of roles like batting in the middle overs, rotating the strike, power hitting, finisher. The likes of Morkel can only dream of having that kind of versatility to their game.

[Sid]

Yuvraj has been part of the team simply because of his part time bowling for quite some time IMO :giggle:

No ,Yuvi has been playing in the side for his part time batting :P

[Manny_Pacquiao]

Whatever combinations they make' date=' these overpaid rockstars should ensure that they win the remaining matches..[/quote'] even if they do that, ppl still wont be satisfied and will still call them overpaid rockstars :--D

[Ultimate_Game]

Yuvraj has been part of the team simply because of his part time bowling for quite some time IMO :giggle:

You can't lump Yuvraj in the same category. Yuvraj is a specialist batsman who can bowl. Before the miserable last year he was one of our most important batsmen and I think the selectors & team management understand this and that's why he's been giving so much leeway to rediscover his touch. If Yuvraj regains his touch, India would be nearly unstoppable as we would have in form and destructive batsmen everywhere. Hopefully his knock against Eng turned the corner for him

[asterix]

even if they do that' date=' ppl still wont be satisfied and will still call them overpaid rockstars :--D[/quote'] No No.. I'm satisfied that they are overpaid rockstars.. I'm not complaining at all..

[CSK Fan]

#2 batsman doesn't mean he wins matches. He contributes and rather plays at his own pace out of the context of the game. Raina on the other hand plays according to the game situation. He can build slow and steady partnerships as well as fire when needed.

If you have watched enough ODIs(as opposed to IPL matches), you would realise that teams go on to win more matches when 1-2 batsmen make a huge score even at a lower strike rate than when 1-2 batsmen hit a quickfire 50. Kohli's strike rate is very good too and his USP is his consistancy

[Ultimate_Game]

On what basis? Both have been very ordinary in test matches, and both have been very good in ODIs. On Indian pitches, Raina has more utility than Duminy. I think your bracketing of Raina as a lower order hitter is off. He is a proper batsman, perhaps not test class, but that's a different issue. In ODIs he has shown to play all different kind of roles like batting in the middle overs, rotating the strike, power hitting, finisher. The likes of Morkel can only dream of having that kind of versatility to their game.

On the basis of the following stats... JP Duminy Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100 Wkts BBI Bowl Av 73 2052 129 42.75 2 19 3/31 37.89 Suresh Raina Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100 Wkts BBI Bowl Av 111 2639 116* 35.18 3 7 1/13 59.71 Can you deny that Duminy isn't more solid and a better batsman than Raina? Plus Duminy has played most of the matches in more bowler friendly conditions of SA and still averages over 42. I am bracketing Raina as a lower order batsman as that's what his role is and that's what he is capable of. Raina has too many technical deficiencies to be a top order bat - he can do so in T20s but not in odis and Tests. The only place for Raina is lower down the order as I can't see him bat in top 4. Plus on the subcontinent Duminy gives you a decent spinning option as well and I'm not sure SA would replace Duminy with Raina if given the option.

[ghost]

You can't lump Yuvraj in the same category. Yuvraj is a specialist batsman who can bowl. Before the miserable last year he was one of our most important batsmen and I think the selectors & team management understand this and that's why he's been giving so much leeway to rediscover his touch. If Yuvraj regains his touch' date= India would be nearly unstoppable as we would have in form and destructive batsmen everywhere. Hopefully his knock against Eng turned the corner for him

OK, cool. Just two questions. How much leeway is he going to be given to rediscover his touch ? You have some particular limit in mind or is it going to be until India gets knocked out of the WC ? Also, he wasn't too impressive in the England match; even though he got a few runs against a mediocre attack, he scratched around quite a bit.

[saneindian]

Whatever combinations they make' date=' [b']these overpaid rockstars should ensure that they win the remaining matches..

Uncle apako itni jealousy kyun hoti hai? Gym jao khelo koodo aur IPL mein jake tum bhi paise banao na. kisne roka hai?

[Manny_Pacquiao]

Uncle apako itni jealousy kyun hoti hai? Gym jao khelo koodo aur IPL mein jake tum bhi paise banao na. kisne roka hai?

LOL yeh sab karega toh forum pe bakwaas post likhne ka time nahi milega na..:haha:

[The Outsider]

On the basis of the following stats... JP Duminy Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100 Wkts BBI Bowl Av 73 2052 129 42.75 2 19 3/31 37.89 Suresh Raina Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100 Wkts BBI Bowl Av 111 2639 116* 35.18 3 7 1/13 59.71 Can you deny that Duminy isn't more solid and a better batsman than Raina? Plus Duminy has played most of the matches in more bowler friendly conditions of SA and still averages over 42.

Last I checked the World Cup was being played in the subcontinent. Moreover, since his comeback Raina has also been averaging around the 40 mark with a much better strike rate than Duminy. That should be the number under consideration - recent form - when picking a player than a misleading career average. A straightforward question - do you really believe Duminy is a better ODI batsman than Raina in subcontinent conditions - flat and/or turning tracks?

I am bracketing Raina as a lower order batsman as that's what his role is and that's what he is capable of. Raina has too many technical deficiencies to be a top order bat - he can do so in T20s but not in odis and Tests. The only place for Raina is lower down the order as I can't see him bat in top 4. Plus on the subcontinent Duminy gives you a decent spinning option as well and I'm not sure SA would replace Duminy with Raina if given the option.

Duminy does not bat in the top 4 either and with Botha, Peterson, and Tahir in the team what bowling option is Duminy providing South Africa?

[Ultimate_Game]

OK, cool. Just two questions. How much leeway is he going to be given to rediscover his touch ? You have some particular limit in mind or is it going to be until India gets knocked out of the WC ? Also, he wasn't too impressive in the England match; even though he got a few runs against a mediocre attack, he scratched around quite a bit.

I think he will get a free reign this world cup. No point in moving away from him now after investing so much of time and effort in him. I don't see Yuvraj being dropped, unless he's injured, during the world cup.

[Sachin=GOD]

On the basis of the following stats... JP Duminy Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100 Wkts BBI Bowl Av 73 2052 129 42.75 2 19 3/31 37.89 Suresh Raina Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100 Wkts BBI Bowl Av 111 2639 116* 35.18 3 7 1/13 59.71 Can you deny that Duminy isn't more solid and a better batsman than Raina? Plus Duminy has played most of the matches in more bowler friendly conditions of SA and still averages over 42. I am bracketing Raina as a lower order batsman as that's what his role is and that's what he is capable of. Raina has too many technical deficiencies to be a top order bat - he can do so in T20s but not in odis and Tests. The only place for Raina is lower down the order as I can't see him bat in top 4. Plus on the subcontinent Duminy gives you a decent spinning option as well and I'm not sure SA would replace Duminy with Raina if given the option.

Raina has batted lower down the order more often and his performances there have been quite outstanding therefore it would be wrong to say that he is in any way less than Duminy. Link