What’s wrong with Indian cinema?

[gorah_pindu]

Check out this great article by Upperstall, which lays into all the failures of Indian cinema: http://www.upperstall.com/wwic.html -Very little originality -Identity crisis -Star Power -Lack of options -Distribution pains -Lack of appreciation of good films -Censorship I wish India's cinema was more like that of Japan, Hong Kong and South Korea. Apart from a few art films that make it through, and the odd entertaining Bollywood movie, there is nothing interesting. Never mind original cinema - there isnt any decent science fiction or fantasy.

[Predator_05]

So true. You see one of those sh*tty films, you've seen them all. The love triangles tend to become boring after a while. I'd also like to add one more point to what is a very thorough assessment of Dollywood... - Men dancing around like gay dogs in heat

[suma25]

inidian cinema is just not bollywood the guy just menntions only about bollywood.. bollywood is not indian cinema it is a part of indian cinema.... though what he says is true abt bollywood and which was known all along. buthere are better movies being made in regional cinemas Asfor bollywood there have been couple fo decent movies that hav come out more so in 2006-2007 althoughtthey are few as compared to the thrash being dished out regularly apart fromt the movies he mentioned in that article which is considered gud there are other couple of movies khosla ka ghosla, dombivali fast,vanaja, being cyrus, the four letter word,black friday, parzania ,metro ,ek chalis kilast local bheja fry, mixed double ,metro which are gud so not the same thrash is being dished out again and again

[gorah_pindu]

Its true that other regions produce a higher proportion of good films (Tamil and Benagli are my favorite), but the same thing still aplies - even when you take all the Indian cinema areas together, it is overwhelmed by crap movies.

[Lurker]

I wish India's cinema was more like that of Japan' date=' Hong Kong and South Korea. Apart from a few art films that make it through, and the odd entertaining Bollywood movie, there is nothing interesting. Never mind original cinema - there isnt any decent science fiction or fantasy.[/quote'] A week or so back I was watching this Iranian movie KANDAHAR. It is the story of an Afgani-Canadian woman's travels to war ravaged Afganistan to meet her sister. Towards the very start of the movie there is this scene where a Red Cross Relief Aeroplane makes a "drop" and underneath people are scampering towards them. As the camera zooms in close you see that the things you thought were "people" are actually all men with missing legs running furiously towards the drop on their crutches. As the camera switches towards the "drop" you realize these are no goods / eatables / medicines but simple Jaipur Foot! It is a very simple but deeply touching scene(as is the entire movie in fact) and one can not help but be moved by it. My point with that scene is two-fold: A) Issues like Censorship are much overstated. In my opinion the best cinema coming out right now is from Iran(as KANDAHAR is) and guess what they have double the problem of Censorship than us. Not to mention the fact that back home the best Directors have rarely had to worry about censorship. Directors like Adoor Gopalakrishnan, Satyajit Re, Mrinal Sen, Shyam Benegal etc etc. I can certainly have issues with Censorship when a "Black Friday" is not shown, but I have no support when the author suggests Censorship as one of the reason that kills Indian cinema and then falls back on "The Last Tango in Paris". B) The subject(KANDAHAR) should have been dealt by an Indian Director for the simple reason that the movie deals with the plight of Afganis, and simple things like Jaipur Foot is a treasure(and often a thing to barter/sell) for the poor soul. And guess where all the Jaipur Foot comes from. So what do I think of the article about the issue of Indian cinema? Well I say the author conviniently forgets the biggest perpetrator - Indian audience. Indian cinema has not been killed by the likes of Karan Johar or Sanjay Gupta, it is killed by the very audience that walks in to watch a Karan Johar movie, by the same audience that can not have enough of the cr@p that is dished out by Yashraj Productions. What happens to the good movies? Lets see now. BLACK..how did it fare? Omkara...how did that fare? Hazaar Khwaishein Aisi...how did that fare? The three movies put together would have perhaps done half as much as the business as a Krisshhh. Sure there would be exceptions. Rang De Basanti was a hit, thanks perhaps to Aamir Khan star-power. I mean at the risk of being cynical I would say had there been say Anil Kapur(or anyone else) the movie would have bombed. Yes RDB was a hit but I wonder how many Indians actually liked it, I know atleast as many Indians that did not like the movie as the number of Indians who did. I do not mean to be judgemental here but I will say this that even though RDB had some good songs & music(the movie in general was great) you would have a fraction, a very tiny fraction of people, who would know the poet who wrote - "Kuch Kal gujarne ko khoon chala khoon chala"...Of course every other Indian movie fan would have ample knowledge of Aish-Abhishek wedding instead. My point is this, the downfall of Indian cinema(certainly the Hindi cinema) is owed largely to the audience, specially the NRI crowd these days. Javed Akhtar once said how one of his very first movie Producers showed him a map of India and pointed towards Bhopal, Patna, Allahabad etc etc...and told him(and I paraphrase). "This is where my movies work and I hope you would make a story with that in mind". He also said that 30 years after the meeting when he met a new producer he showed him another map but this time highlighted North America, Europe etc as to his target audience. Tells a story right there. xxx

[gorah_pindu]

Lurker - I personally dont think censorship is overstated, because in the end, not everyone wants to watch purely non-boundary pushing cinema all the time - India has made its share of art films which can rival anything Iran puts out, right back to Satyajit Ray's era - which is why im un-concerned with that - what I want above all else is diversification. Censorship prevents this by forcing filmakers to dumb down adult concepts, and steer clear of critisism of religion, etc. It might not be the largest reason why Indian cinema is crap - but it plays its part, hence why it was only one heading in the article. And the author did mention the audience - hence film literacy, lack of appretiation for good films, etc. Im pretty suprised actually, by your stance on this - although im tempted to say "one shouldnt let their personal tastes dictate what everyone can watch", in reality, id do the same thing if films I would enjoy could be made - rather, im instead suprised that you are writing off great cinema, including Last Tango in Paris, so easily - afterall, there is beauty to be found in any genre. My own tastes lead me toward Japanese and South Korean live action and animated cinema mainly, as well as the offbeat films of other countries, from the American adaptation of Fight Club, to sometimes sexually explicit French cinema. The reason for my special mention of Japan and South Korea, is that where in Hollywood and Europe, non-mainstream concepts rarely make the transition from book to film - the manga/manhwa culture of Japan and SK means I have seen cinema and TV which give literature a run for its money. There isnt anywhere else, where relatively underground cultural movements like goth and cyberpunk regularily get explored in mainstream entertainment - and unfortunatly, no matter how expressive the art cinema of India and Iran gets - I will never be satisfied with just that.

Sure there would be exceptions. Rang De Basanti was a hit, thanks perhaps to Aamir Khan star-power. I mean at the risk of being cynical I would say had there been say Anil Kapur(or anyone else) the movie would have bombed. Yes RDB was a hit but I wonder how many Indians actually liked it, I know atleast as many Indians that did not like the movie as the number of Indians who did. I do not mean to be judgemental here but I will say this that even though RDB had some good songs & music(the movie in general was great) you would have a fraction, a very tiny fraction of people, who would know the poet who wrote - "Kuch Kal gujarne ko khoon chala khoon chala"...Of course every other Indian movie fan would have ample knowledge of Aish-Abhishek wedding instead.

Perhaps you are right - in the end, what you are saying is 'what is most commercially successfull is not neccecarily a good precident for cinema' - and it is indeed the fault of the audience. How to change that?

[gorah_pindu]

To elaborate on why I think censorship prevents diversification and exploration of new areas and themes - if I wanted to make a film right now that showed sex as the natural progression of an adult relationship - it would either be banned by the censors, or torn down by a mob. At least some problems could be solved by: - A good ratings system - Wider distribution via digital tech - Initiatives showcasing good cinema - Time and wealth

[suma25]

So what do I think of the article about the issue of Indian cinema? Well I say the author conviniently forgets the biggest perpetrator - Indian audience.

lurker , i think both are equally responsible..... it is that the audience have been fed the ssame **** again and again for time immemorial.. they have accepted this mediocrity ...you have to remember that most of the audience dont look at cinema as serious industry they look at it only as a source of entertainment escapism ,if you will and tht is why you get crappy films by yahsraj film , sanjay leela bhansali , sanjay gupta. They are highly over-rated.sanjay gupta is not even rateable his movies are just sleek music videos just 21/2 hrs longer.thats the reason why films like blackfriday,parzania hazaron kwahishein aisi dont do well as they deal with serious issues and people arent too much bothered with that as they already have too much on their plate . such films dont make money and as result dont find any takers and sadly most of those who make such movies either wither away or go back to making formulaic films .If ur really interested in indian films in general or about films in general i wud suggest u try this blog http://passionforcinema.com anurag kashyap Of blackfridayfame ,sudhir mishra of Hazaronkwahisheinaisi,couple of regional film makers blog there ...u get an idea of how the(bollywood)industry works.....

[Lurker]

Censorship prevents this by forcing filmakers to dumb down adult concepts, and steer clear of critisism of religion, etc. It might not be the largest reason why Indian cinema is crap - but it plays its part, hence why it was only one heading in the article. And the author did mention the audience - hence film literacy, lack of appretiation for good films, etc.

GP, Censorship in theory certainly dumbs down adult concepts but lets see how it works in Indian atmosphere. The keyword is Indian here. I do not have any issues with Last Tango in Paris, matter of fact I greatly like the movie, but I don't see such a movie being made in an Indian backdrop...just like I can't see a "Lost in Translation" in an Indian backdrop. The question then becomes can there be adult oriented themes in an Indian backdrop. The answer, in my opinion, is that it already is. Take for example Gulzar's Ijazat. It deals with 3 characters, a free lance photographer who has a pre-marital relationship with an obsessed girl and a simple girl that gets caught between the two. Now it deals with adult oriented theme in a very matured manner without judging anyone and without any need for censorship. Plus this movie came around 20 odd years from today. If you take today's movie it seems every other one deals with pre/post marital relationship, extra-marital and so on. The censor does not stop them. What it does stop is the actual depiction of the act. And I must say I wonder as to the neccessity of such acts at time. In Last tango in Paris it was needed, but was it needed in Ijazat? No. My issue with censorship is that it is a Government board and like any public sector suffers from the same ills.

The reason for my special mention of Japan and South Korea, is that where in Hollywood and Europe, non-mainstream concepts rarely make the transition from book to film - the manga/manhwa culture of Japan and SK means I have seen cinema and TV which give literature a run for its money. There isnt anywhere else, where relatively underground cultural movements like goth and cyberpunk regularily get explored in mainstream entertainment - and unfortunatly, no matter how expressive the art cinema of India and Iran gets - I will never be satisfied with just that.

See this is what I am perhaps saying too though maybe not in same words. I have a feeling that you enjoy Japan and South Korean movie because it depicts the culture(old as well as new) with honesty. This is also similar to French cinema where relationships are explored and not the melodrama attached with it. However if you compare Indian cinema with it you will see that we have somewhere lost our touch with culture. No I am no old hack shouting "Culture-culture" but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that not many schools in India(perhaps none) celebrate proms, or have baskbetball game as their main events. You know GP growing up whenever I would see Hindi cinema the casting would be done in three languages - English/Hindi/Urdu. Then Urdu slowly faded away and the casting was largely done in English/Hindi..finally today it is all English. I am not intersted in starting a language war here but what is the sense of a Hindi movie that has the entire casting in English? Isnt there something inherently wrong here? I can understand a Being Cyrus having its introduction in English but what about a Lage Raho Munnabhai? I would say if India has to churn out good cinema it should go back to the good old Bengali and Malyali directors of yore. The best movies are often the ones those are true to life and culture and not the one that is shot in 5 different continents. xxxx

[Lurker]

lurker ' date=' i think both are equally responsible..... it is that the audience have been fed the ssame **** again and again for time immemorial.. they have accepted this mediocrity ...you have to remember that most of the audience dont look at cinema as serious industry they look at it only as a source of entertainment escapism ,if you will and tht is why you get crappy films by yahsraj film , sanjay leela bhansali , sanjay gupta. They are highly over-rated.sanjay gupta is not even rateable his movies are just sleek music videos just 21/2 hrs longer.thats the reason why films like blackfriday,parzania hazaron kwahishein aisi dont do well as they deal with serious issues and people arent too much bothered with that as they already have too much on their plate . such films dont make money and as result dont find any takers and sadly most of those who make such movies either wither away or go back to making formulaic films .If ur really interested in indian films in general or about films in general i wud suggest u try this blog http://passionforcinema.com anurag kashyap Of blackfridayfame ,sudhir mishra of Hazaronkwahisheinaisi,couple of regional film makers blog there ...u get an idea of how the(bollywood)industry works.....

Suma, I will surely check the blog. :thumbs_up: See I don't disagree with the fact that the movie industry also has to share the blame, but what I am also going to say is that the audience play as much of a role, if not more. Look at it this way. Cinema has always been an escape for Indians, specially for small-towners. However when you see cinemas(like Krisshh or Kabhi Alvida na Kehna) making millions overseas you have to wonder if the theory or small towners trying to escape from mundane life watching a dreamy movie still holds valid? xxx

[Lurker]

To elaborate on why I think censorship prevents diversification and exploration of new areas and themes - if I wanted to make a film right now that showed sex as the natural progression of an adult relationship - it would either be banned by the censors' date=' [b']or torn down by a mob. At least some problems could be solved by: - A good ratings system - Wider distribution via digital tech - Initiatives showcasing good cinema - Time and wealth

I hate mobs..culture ke thekedaar. I agree to a rating system(instead of standard U/A). I am not so sure about the whole time and wealth thing GP, can u please elaborate on that?\ xxxx

[gorah_pindu]

Funny you should mention a 'Lost in Translation' in India - ive long wanted to see something similar done in Bangalore or Mumbai or something. And I think it probably could be by the right person.

The question then becomes can there be adult oriented themes in an Indian backdrop. The answer, in my opinion, is that it already is. Take for example Gulzar's Ijazat. It deals with 3 characters, a free lance photographer who has a pre-marital relationship with an obsessed girl and a simple girl that gets caught between the two. Now it deals with adult oriented theme in a very matured manner without judging anyone and without any need for censorship. Plus this movie came around 20 odd years from today. If you take today's movie it seems every other one deals with pre/post marital relationship, extra-marital and so on. The censor does not stop them. What it does stop is the actual depiction of the act. And I must say I wonder as to the neccessity of such acts at time. In Last tango in Paris it was needed, but was it needed in Ijazat? No.

Putting aside for a moment the argument that "well, they should be free to do it irrelevent of Indian tastes, because thats freedom", knowing that it will lead to another debate entirely similar to recent ones ive had on the art student arrest - id like to instead just remind you that not every film can avoid showing acts of sex, if they are central to the charecter buildup, relationship, plots, etc - thus making an example of one film that didnt need to show sex to get its adult message across dosent somehow justify the censorship of many more films that cant avoid it. I dont want to see something that is restrained like Ijazat all the time - how could one make a film about an S&M relationship or something without showing the passion of the act directly? The real shock of seeing a sexual assult on film cannot be emulated by innuendo. What if a filmaker wants to show a homosexual kiss, to send out a message?

See this is what I am perhaps saying too though maybe not in same words. I have a feeling that you enjoy Japan and South Korean movie because it depicts the culture(old as well as new) with honesty.

I see where you are coming from here - since India's culture is not perticularily into stuff like that yet, a person who wanted full on realism is already getting it. But I infact am not interested in cultural realism at all - when I say I like the underground concepts explored in Japanese and South Korean cinema - it is because I want to explore the concept itself, not the people who really follow it - and thats why I cannot be satisfied with Indian cinema right now - because I want the movies which set the trends, not the ones that document them. There is a place for a movie that reflects the attitudes of the time (id say Rang De Basanti, or Fight Club (the American version) are examples of such movies), but you misunderstand why I want diversification - I dont want it to show the Indian condition with honesty (I can get that from Ramu's films or something anyway) - I want to diversify, because I want new concepts explored, new trends set, and boundaries pushed back. Japanese cinema and South Korean cinema is honest about human nature - not just Japanese and Korean nature. Japan isnt really a post-apocayptic hellhole of street gangs and self-mutilated punks, or a post-human dystopian world of mega-corporations, or a demonic samurai filled landscape of terror (lol)... These concepts all all simply devices, and could take place anywhere. You were right in one respect - I crave honesty - but not the sort of honesty that is confined within any one border - rather the honesty which is human nature - and which Indian and Iranian cinema shys away from due to taboo and dogma.

[gorah_pindu]

I hate mobs..culture ke thekedaar. I agree to a rating system(instead of standard U/A). I am not so sure about the whole time and wealth thing GP, can u please elaborate on that?\ xxxx

I just mean time for attitudes to change, and wealth as in middle class educated people wanting better products - and paying for them.

[gorah_pindu]

because it depicts the culture(old as well as new) with honesty.

To elaborate on what I mean, take this example. There is a manga called Berserk, which is set in a fictional medieval Europe/India inspired world. The primary appeal of this perticular work, is the concept - the world in which the anti-hero protagonist finds himself is not simply nihilist - it is beyond that - it is a world in which there is a higher power, but that power is totally and utterly maleviolent, and thus the world is pure undiluted suffering. This sort of thing cant be produced by a country that is being limited by censors the way India is. I crave its honesty - the way the world created is an utterly horrific reflection of our own. Thats the kind of freedom I long for in Indian cinema. Of course - the audience and film industry have to want to experiment first, hence we go back to blaming the audience - but im sure there are at least some filmakers in India who are limited from going where they want.

[max1_]

Indian cinema is improving. We get to see a lot more variety these days. But they can still get better by cutting out unecessary stuff like some song sequences, etc.

[beetle]

Max1?????????????????

[CC1981]

Gorah, unfortunately, when it comes to freedom of expression (physical or verbal), India is far far behind the west, probably India today is equivalent of the pre-WWII American (NOT European btw) moral compass.

[gorah_pindu]

Id like that to change though. Maybe India needs its own equivalent of the hippy movement :)

[suma25]

http://passionforcinema.com/who-the-****-i-think-i-am/ :hysterical: hilarious incident that happened to anurag kashyap(black friday) fame..clearly indicates how indian masses are totally obssessed with candyfloss cinema and not so open to realistic /experimental cinema.

[Gambit]

I don't think there is anything wrong with Hindi cinema. It's always tried to entertain and if that compromises quality, then so be it. Movies like Coolie No.1 might not make you think and win acclaim from some la di da film jury but they are awesome in their own right. Having said that, there is still a huge number of Hindi films that make you sit up and take notice. They are that brilliant.