What to do with Kashmir ?

[achilles]

^ Sorry if I got personal. But his posts about us owing them Kashmir got me very angry.

[ganeshran]

Lets not get angry and start launching personal attacks here. The debate would degenerate into a shouting match then ..

[cricfan001]

@ganeshran, If you carefully study most of the current world conflicts then you would realise that because most muslim nations use "religion" as a strategic asset for countering a non-muslim nation either directly or via a proxy war. They also use sectarianism as a strategic asset, like in Iran-Iraq war and the current unrest in middle-east like in Bahrain etc. Once, all muslim nations realise that religion/sect cannot be used as a strategic weapon against an enemy then only world will be at peace. Do not be in any delusion or whatsoever, that resolving Kashmir would solve the tensions between India and Pakistan. Unless, Pakistan stops preaching radicalised version of its religion in madrassas and stops pampering these "Jihadis", there will never ever be peace. My simple question which I asked so many times to Asim earlier, why muslim nations involve in far-off lands even when the issue is internal to a specific country. Is this not a dangerous trend which could create direct/proxy wars. Only way forward in this world, is secularism and liberalism which guarantee rights of all. Unless muslim countries tread this path, there is no hope for peace. Religion should not be used as a state policy, if it is used then the fostering nations will live with devastating consequences.

[ravishingravi]

I agree with you Cricfan. Pakistan is under this delusion of muslim brotherhood or Ummah or whatever they call it. Fact is in my experience, they get treated quite differently in fact quite badly by the Arabs. But it has its roots in ancient India. Also in last century, remember Khilafat movement. My biggest concerns with Pakistan is, what will it do with Kashmir. They have been unable to run with any credibility a nation 1/5 th of size of India. There are freedom movements within Pakistan. As for India, I have come to the conclusion that Kashmir causes more problems than good. Consider the kind of resources country spends every year on Kashmir. Plus, it is a "disputed" area including POK even if we hate that word. The history on it is far from clear. I definitely doubt that Kashmiris who watch the news are chomping at the bid to join Pakistan. But it is also a fact that a large sect there wants to impose Sharia and govern it their way. They have their moives for "freedom" struggle. India has also treated them like a colony by and large. My belief is that if Kashmir was given the best opportunities and administration, the question of segregation never would have arisen among anybody. But Pakistan's activities combined with India behaviour have completely disoriented them. My feeling is that we might have to back to UN resolution. I also believe that India is going in the right direction and it has lot of work to do when it comes to integration of east. This is where our focus should be. Slaughter of Pandits as painful as it might have been we have to move forward.

[cricfan001]

@ravishingravi, Please think calmly and deliberate on the problems faced in kashmir. We need to have comprehensive knowledge of its history and what consequences will it lead for Indian state. Is it not true that rampant violence has started in Kashmir only after Zia took to power and it has escalated during Benazri's first term? Were they not using the madrassas setup during this time for traning/brainswashing the jihadis to fight the holy war in Afghanistan with Soviet Union against India? Was it not true during these times, the hindu community was driven out from their homes and tortured by the fundamentalist elements? Why is it that, a life of a hindu irrelevant to the media and the so called "pseduo-secularists"?. To me, all lives are relevant, irrespective of religion, so please note the slaughter and dislocation of pandits cannot be put calmly in a back burner. Why doesn't mainstream indian media educate people on the devastating difficulties encountered by Hindu population in Kashmir? Why the media is hell bent on only portraying one side of the picture? Do you honestly think that Pakistan will stop sponsoring terrorist activities in India, if kashmir issue is resolved? Not at all my friend. I already explained the answer above. If tomorrow some "x" part wants to secede from India, will we be doing that? Protecting a part of land, however irrelevant it may appear to a common man, is a psychological and moral obligation for the nation to defend that. This meek attitude of India over many centuries has been used by various invading armies to plunder and do mass-murder here, these actions fractured the psyche of the majority of the nation and made people suffer from low self-esteem for centuries. We need to get over this and understand "Justice" is a two-way process and Pakistan should reciprocate in kind with our gestures for peace. Do you think China will happily hand over its disputed land in Tibet, Xinjiang region or Taiwan? If secession starts, it will not end, it is like cancer which will suck the life of the nation. We should never let history repeat itself through our meek attitude. Secularism/Liberalism is our way of life and that is why India is progressing. But make no mistake, "Pseudo-secularism" is a curse and we should all condemn it in harshest way possible. The answer is simple to all the problems between India and Pakistan: When Pakistan truly espouses liberalism/secularism in their society be it civil or in military, then that time will be the end for all problems. Till that time comes, India has to be wary of all anti-national elements.

[achilles]

China and India are at different ends of the deal. China might be coercing Tibet and Taiwan to stay with them. Here, Kashmir wants to be a part of our country and wants it to stay that way. I don't know why we even tolerate other countries poking their nose in our internal affairs and go for "piss talks" with them. Let us try asking Taiwan and China to sit at a table and try to resolve their issues and we'll hear a big "feck off and mind your own business" from them. Its about time we adopt the same attitude.

[Asim]

@ganeshran, If you carefully study most of the current world conflicts then you would realise that because most muslim nations use "religion" as a strategic asset for countering a non-muslim nation either directly or via a proxy war. They also use sectarianism as a strategic asset, like in Iran-Iraq war and the current unrest in middle-east like in Bahrain etc. Once, all muslim nations realise that religion/sect cannot be used as a strategic weapon against an enemy then only world will be at peace. Do not be in any delusion or whatsoever, that resolving Kashmir would solve the tensions between India and Pakistan. Unless, Pakistan stops preaching radicalised version of its religion in madrassas and stops pampering these "Jihadis", there will never ever be peace. My simple question which I asked so many times to Asim earlier, why muslim nations involve in far-off lands even when the issue is internal to a specific country. Is this not a dangerous trend which could create direct/proxy wars. Only way forward in this world, is secularism and liberalism which guarantee rights of all. Unless muslim countries tread this path, there is no hope for peace. Religion should not be used as a state policy, if it is used then the fostering nations will live with devastating consequences.

Bro! So far in almost each of your post I find same few points 1. "Ummah" problem (muslims involvment in far-off lannds) & Liberalism key to success. Let me try to explain it (my personal opinion and ofcourse based on my personal knowledge only) Ummah: I am not sure why but you looks bit over-excited on this term, probably you have not used it here but almost in each of your previous post and you ask why muslims involves themselves in far-off land issue... First of all I hope you understand what Ummah means, it is just one arabic word which means "a community"... and islamic community is not based on any region, specific nationality or race etc rather it is based on religious principals only so whoever is muslim wherever he is, part of muslim community and so part of ummat. Now tell me would you really feel anything dangerous if I say I am a part of muslim community, I hope no and its 100% same if I say I am part of Muslim ummah, so guess you should relax a bit and not feel any negativity in word "Ummah" because it will remain there as long as you have "Muslim Community" anywhere... Now 2nd part, why muslim nation involves in far-off lands, so what I feel is i). its not dead right all the way, biggest prove is: even all muslim countries themselves NEVER able to agreed together on any major world issue, and still IF anywhere you find such oeservation, I think I already have replied on it but in my opinion it happens when those "far-off lands" targets religion Islam instead of matter they dealing with. Suppose one incident of murder happens in UK, some poor hindu get involved in it and they instead of saying Mr.XYZ is involved, what if they call it Hinduism is involved behind this murder, I hope you can feeeel the reaction of hindus from each corner of world. Finally Liberalism :) you talking about same Liberalism where i.e. in France, Ban on Niqab of "Muslim" womens... How many of your Liberal countries stood against this liberal decision or wait, I think it was a right decision, is it? I am sure no Muslim country ever BANNED any other religion's any type of pratice, so bhayya aisey liberalism ka kya faida?

[Asim]

Hey Asim... I have done an extensive study of geopolitics and there is one fact which I am sure that no one of you guys even know about. NWFP is Afghanistan's territory that is illegally occupied by your country and based on a resolution (look up the UN website), you were supposed to return it back to them in 1999-2000. There is an agreement to that effect and your country has defaulted on the same. So playing the victim card over NWFP is bull sheet of the highest order. Secondly, Pakistan was created on the basis of the same document that granted Jammu & Kashmir to India. So before your country starts playing a victim card on Kashmir as well, be happy that we have still given you a part of it, which you don't deserve. Thirdly, the reason I was away from ICF for a month was because I was in Kashmir. And dude, I've got news. KASHMIRI'S DO NOT WANT TO BE A PART OF PAKISTAN, NOR DO THEY WANT INDEPENDENCE. They are happy being a part of India, and are SICK OF YOUR COUNTRY'S NOSE-POKING in a matter that is none of your business. You have destroyed a part of our country in your mad horde of having a jewel on your crown you don't even deserve. Fourthly, if you guys REALLY care for the sentiments of people, why is Baluchistan a part of your country? Fifthly, you should visit Kashmir before bullsheeting about how bad it is doing. It is doing phenomenally well and development is on track. Sorry to disappoint you. Sixthly, when I spoke to traders out there about being a part of Pakistan, they said, "Sahab, Hindustan mein hai toh itna dhandha toh hota hai. Agar woh bhikari country ka part honge, toh kaun aayega Kashmir? Kaun paise kharch karega Kashmir main? Humara pet kaise bharega? Hume yeh seeyasat se door rehna hai aur hume Hindustan mein rehna hai." Give me a point by point reply or don't at all reply. Thanks.

Yeah Sir! I really dont know about the NWFP stuff you told but wait you talking about some "U.N Resolution" :) Ahh don't tell me... I hope you got my point I hope you had a great tour there, I would love to visit Kashmir & even India some day of my life, and very much honestly speaking here, if people of Kashmir as you told happily wants to be a part of india, thats it... issue resolved, what else we want? since day 1 we are already saying it should be done according to what Kashmiris want but just one little step you required to take: I m not sure why then indian administration hesitate to ask Kashmiri people infront of whole world, just do it, let the whole world including Pakistan satify once and forever, issue resolved... Happy ending... 60 saal sey Pak-Ind ka aik hi fundamental issue chal raha hey, usko resolve karney k liay itna b nahi kar saktey kya?

[jonas10]

Yeah Sir! I really dont know about the NWFP stuff you told but wait you talking about some "U.N Resolution" :) Ahh don't tell me... I hope you got my point I hope you had a great tour there, I would love to visit Kashmir & even India some day of my life, and very much honestly speaking here, if people of Kashmir as you told happily wants to be a part of india, thats it... issue resolved, what else we want? since day 1 we are already saying it should be done according to what Kashmiris want but just one little step you required to take: I m not sure why then indian administration hesitate to ask Kashmiri people infront of whole world, just do it, let the whole world including Pakistan satify once and forever, issue resolved... Happy ending... 60 saal sey Pak-Ind ka aik hi fundamental issue chal raha hey, usko resolve karney k liay itna b nahi kar saktey kya?

Yah you Paks care so much about Kashmir's independence that you gave your godless muslim hating Chinese masters a piece of Kashmir to keep the Indian boogy man from ripping the last 1/3 back from you. Enough with this you want Kashmir independent you'd gift it to Beijing if we ever did it. The funny thing is then they'd probably setup an army base to irradiate Uighur muslims in Xinjing.

[cricfan001]

Hey Asim, before I explain on why "muslim ummah" concept is dangerous for the neighbouring sovereign non-muslim states and to the rest of the world, let me explain few things from my point of view: 1. Already in the last millennium, my nation has sufferred brutally at the hands of invading mongols/mughals/afghans, these people plundered our people here, destroyed our culture, did mass murder here, simply because we practised a different faith compared to them. We were considered "infidels/kaffirs" by these invading barbarians and they massacred our people. Check the historical facts of how Muhammed Ghazni, Mohammed Ghori, Teimur, Babur, Aurangazeb did to the indigenous people of this nation. Was Jijya tax not imposed on infidels/kaffirs to cooerce them to abandon their faith/culture? This land has seen enough bloodshed in the name of the religion and it was done during those times with the same idea of advancing this concept of "muslim ummah". When these barbarians found the majority of the indigenous population not ready to abandon their faith, they introduced new types of hardships like Jijiya, low grade jobs and other forms of hardships etc. 2. Now, you are complaining about France and other liberal nations. Before you go on that line, now tell me how many muslim nations in the world that are left with more than 10 % of minority population and what is the state of those? What were the statistics of Hindu/Sikh minority in Afghanistan during Nabibuallh period in 1991 and what is now? What was the percentage of minority population in Pakistan during independence and what is now? Does equal rights given to minorities in muslim nations apart from few liberal muslim nations? How Saudi Arabia treats other religions, are there any public temples/churches in the whole country?. I can go on and on on this but I will leave all this to your conscience. If you are honest, then you will see what I'm talking about. Please note, for most of the muslims, "religion" is their first priority and for that they will not mind to support "muslim ummah" concept, even that may hurt the country they live in. This leads to direct/indirect support of proxy war and meddling in the internal affairs of far-off nations (sorry to use this word repeatedly, but I have to use it to make a point). If this is not the case, why then Uzbeks, Chechens, Turks,Arabs fought against Soviet Union in Afghanistan? Is this not happening in Kashmir? Is this not happening in Xianjing in China? Is this not happening in chechenya? If only muslim nations treat minority communities with respect , grant them equal rights, adopt liberal and secular policies, then we will have resolution to these conflicts. The "Jihadis" are not born they are made by some of the madrassas which propound hate. I know not all muslims accept this, but there are enough training grounds for these in Pakistan and else where, ready to create havoc to innocent peoople. As I said earlier, religion is for the person to get spiritual guidance and act as a human being, when you categorize only people who abide with your religion as "muslim ummah", then more problems arise. Why not accept a totally utopian law, where every human being in any corner of the world is part of a big family? I dislike those people/nations which preach equality to be awarded for them when in the West, but sadly excuse themselves of the same obligation to their minority communities in their host countries. It is not like other religions/people not committed crimes, but in modern times the rise of extremist elements from muslim countries is very high and this poses threat to peace and security of other nations and in fact to the whole world. Note, I'm talking of radicalised/brainwashed extremists and not common muslims. I'm just suggesting that, if we follow liberal and secular way of rule then there will not be that much scope for radicalisation as compared to a exclusive religious state. Again these are my views, you don't need to accept them or think correct from your perspective, but I have studied and understood enough that when a state uses "religion" as a counter weight to foment issues to a neighbour then the results are devastating and long lasting. Brother, I hope we all have peaceful and prosperous lives but when Pakistan is sponsoring cross-border terrorism to hurt India, then I'm afraid we will not have one.

[Asim]

Yah you Paks care so much about Kashmir's independence that you gave your godless muslim hating Chinese masters a piece of Kashmir to keep the Indian boogy man from ripping the last 1/3 back from you. Enough with this you want Kashmir independent you'd gift it to Beijing if we ever did it. The funny thing is then they'd probably setup an army base to irradiate Uighur muslims in Xinjing.

:facepalm: wohi dhak kay teen paat...

[Asim]

@cricifan: Thanks for such detailed reply, I will try to post back in my next session but meanwhile just want your view or little explaination on what you asked "how many muslim nations in the world that are left with more than 10 % of minority"... I mean what does that mean? (Do muslims dont allow them to live in their country or you want to say muslim converts them "by force" or what?)

[cricfan001]

@cricifan: Thanks for such detailed reply, I will try to post back in my next session but meanwhile just want your view or little explaination on what you asked "how many muslim nations in the world that are left with more than 10 % of minority"... I mean what does that mean? (Do muslims dont allow them to live in their country or you want to say muslim converts them "by force" or what?)

Asim, what I meant was, when muslim majority nations acquired independence or when underwent islamic revolution, the minority population in various countries that I mentioned such as Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran was relatively healthy compared to the current state. Do you think, if minorities were given equal rights and safety, will their population dwindle to the way it is currently? Would majority of the minorities run away from those countries abandoning their business, life style etc., for seeking asylum in other countries? My friend, you can be honest to yourself and not to me on this.... You can go through any statistics, I can guarantee you apart from a handful of muslim majority nations like Turkey, Malaysia etc., not many provide safe haven along with equal rights/respect for minorities. Anyway, I have analysed enough and you can have your own views about this. But, I'm pretty much clear on what consequences we are facing and will face, when interference in the internal matters of India is done by nations like Pakistan through the garb of this "ummah" concept in Kashmir. This is a blatant sponsoring of terrorism in Kashmir in the name of religion on Pakistan's part. You talk of your muslim brethren and stuff, then what has happened to your ever concerning people of Pakistan, when Chinese army slaughtered Uyghur muslims in Xinjiang region in China? You kept quiet and I accept that because that is the internal affair of China. But, then why come so much interference in Indian part of Kashmir in the name of "religion"? Why these double standards and hypocrisy? I stand my ground that only a country based on secularism,liberalism and democratic setup with equal rights, respect and justice for all people irrespective of their affiliations would provide a stable country that promotes peace and friendship within it's own country and also towards its neighbour... Bottom line for my argument ... True secularism and liberalism with obvious restrictions accompanied by democratic set of government is the only hope for majority of the muslim countries worldwide to overcome from the current chaotic state they are in...

[jonas10]

@cricifan: Thanks for such detailed reply, I will try to post back in my next session but meanwhile just want your view or little explaination on what you asked "how many muslim nations in the world that are left with more than 10 % of minority"... I mean what does that mean? (Do muslims dont allow them to live in their country or you want to say muslim converts them "by force" or what?)

Thanks for such a detailed reply? Look at what you wrote to my valid point "wohi dhak kay teen paat..." I raised some valid issues and you have no comments dealing with the Pak Masters the Muslim hating Chinese! Why did you give a part of your Kashmir controlled land to them?!?! Why dont you care nothing for the muslims being killed in China??? What about Balouchistan and NWFP? Pathetic.

[Asim]

Thanks for such a detailed reply? Look at what you wrote to my valid point "wohi dhak kay teen paat..." I raised some valid issues and you have no comments dealing with the Pak Masters the Muslim hating Chinese! Why did you give a part of your Kashmir controlled land to them?!?! Why dont you care nothing for the muslims being killed in China??? What about Balouchistan and NWFP? Pathetic.

What I wrote to your "valid" points was my true reaction (I hope you know the meaning of that phrase)... Few reasons why I replied you like that: All of your post absolutly was not a "reply" to my post rather an altogether different story, at least connect your thoughts bit properly with what I said... Want to remain stick only with core topic as maximum as possible and more importantly dont want to convert this discussion into a bitter experience of conversation. I am seriously impressed the way "cricfan001" is posting here, we also might disgree on most of the thoughts but at least all of serious and sincere attitude with decency and sense in his talks but very sorry to mention it; the way you and few other guys want to discuss this topic it will proceed like this: Kashmir - Indian, Pakistani & china Kashmir - Balochistan - NWFP - Gujrat Riots - Freedom Fights - Export of terrorism - UN Resolution - Mao insurgents - Jihadi Centres - Aasam & Manipur - 60,000 Muslim killings in Kashmir - Nagaland - Mumbai Attacks - Naxalite - Muslim & Hindu - Indian involvment in Balochitan elemts - ISI vs RAW - BLA & CIA - Afghanistan & Russia - Bosnia & Palestine - Osama and Obama - Neuclear assets - Afghanistan & Taliban - Weapons of Mass Destruction - oil reserves - Muslim fundamentalism - jew zionist - New World Order - World War 3 - End of world - Day of Judgment - Thread Locked...

[jonas10]

This is truly pathetic and the typical Pakistani mentality. You want to bring up Kashmir but have no way to explain why you gave a part of "independent we pray Kashmir to China". As well the "we love all Muslims that is why we fight for Kashmir" you apparently don't give a damn about the Muslims being slaughtered in China. (You are aware they once actually shut every single Masjid on Friday in the entire country - they state that Muslims need not apply for jobs they are ethnically cleansing the only Muslim state and now half the people in Xinjing are Han Chinese????). Very relevant to Kashmir and yet you have no answer to these two points. I reiterate - pathetic and hypocritical.

[Hell Raiser]

Did Paki's gave POK's control to China?? Really??? Then why the hell do these Pakistani's talk big about Kashmir. This is really pathetic as usual from them.

[Asim]

This is truly pathetic and the typical Pakistani mentality. You want to bring up Kashmir but have no way to explain why you gave a part of "independent we pray Kashmir to China". As well the "we love all Muslims that is why we fight for Kashmir" you apparently don't give a damn about the Muslims being slaughtered in China. (You are aware they once actually shut every single Masjid on Friday in the entire country - they state that Muslims need not apply for jobs they are ethnically cleansing the only Muslim state and now half the people in Xinjing are Han Chinese????). Very relevant to Kashmir and yet you have no answer to these two points. I reiterate - pathetic and hypocritical.

1. As for as your point of handing over any part of Pakistani Kashmir to China is concerned, it will be a breaking-news for almsot all of people even in this thread, it was absolutly false Propaganda of Indian media and nothing else, chapter close... (or give me any non-indian authenticated source for this information) 2. Give me 2 figures, till date... how many muslim been killed by chinese forces, ii). How many muslims been killed by indian forces in Kashmir?

[achilles]

Since we are talking about statistics and minority's, may I know- 1. "How many Hindus are left in Pakistan today?" 2. "How many Hindus were a part of Pakistan when you got independence?"

[cricfan001]

Asim, also for your information, the author Nadeem F.Paracha in Dawn (http://www.dawn.com/2011/05/29/smokers-corner-wrinkles-in-youth.html), is espousing what I have been repeatedly telling in this thread on why there needs to be a drastic change in Pakistani society. Why tolerance, pluralistic values, democratic setup, religious tolerance is needed. In fact, this applies to all fundamentalist muslim nations. If you want to see world with peace then change the attitude of people who are driven to extremism. Please bear in mind, there are other conflicts in the world too, but majority of most dangerous conflicts in the world are rising with extremist/false version of Islam being advocated in madrassas in Pakistanis and else where in the world be it in Afghanistan, Sudan, or Western countries etc. Read that article carefully without any bias and open mind, it is a short and summarized version briefing the current attitude prevailing in Pakistan. If you still do not understand this and try to come with some vague arguments, then I will not waste any more time in explaining to you and making you understand the values of plural society. Final example to end the debate from my side would be from one of the most famous quotes... "There is nothing more difficult than waking someone who is only pretending to be asleep."