Bowling Speeds

[OriginalCopy]

Based on my experience of viewing fast bowlers from the early 80's, I don't believe Lindwall is anywhere close to 90mph. This is just my opinion based on my views on how fast a 90mph ball looks on TV, and this spell by Lindwall does not seem to be close to that. One note however, he may have bowled faster in some other spell or in another game at some other time, so classifying him as a "slower" bowler based on just one spell seems quite error prone.

[msb1991]

Going back to the Lindwall video ... I did a rudimentary calculation based on the start and stop times on that flash video. It does have milliseconds and you will have to try it many times to get that right as the counter moves in big chunks. The fastest time that I got was 0.52. We obviously know the distance approx 17.68 mtrs . so the speed in KMPH= ((17.68/1000) x 3600 ) / 0.52 = 122 KMPH = 76 MPH.

Isn't that the average speed through the air? If the average speed is 76mph then the release speed will be more like 85mph?

[The Outsider]

Isn't that the average speed through the air? If the average speed is 76mph then the release speed will be more like 85mph?

It is not even right. I did the same for a delivery in which there is no bat involved to avoid any confusion and got a time of 0.47 seconds instead of the 0.52 he got. The ball is in line with the stumps in the second still. http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=1555591&postcount=755

[msb1991]

The three points you made shows that he is somewhere around 85-90mph at least which is probably the closest estimation that any stopwatch calculation could get to. The stopwatch method is also only reliable if it has been tested against real deliveries, just to show the method is correct and the timer has accurate reflexes.

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[pensionplan]

I actually think that Hadlee is terribly underrated as a bowler.

By whom? That does not count though.

[pensionplan]

I would say more like 100 MPH.

What the heck, I will go with that. I refuse to vote since there is no choice for close to 100MPH.

[surajmal]

It is not even right. I did the same for a delivery in which there is no bat involved to avoid any confusion and got a time of 0.47 seconds instead of the 0.52 he got. The ball is in line with the stumps in the second still. http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=1555591&postcount=755

frame rate of the video is different than standard modern video reels. So unless you have a reference point or you know about the projector, you cannot possibly calculate the speed that gives even a ballpark figure.

[surajmal]

I just wanna borrow something from baseball for a second. Walter Johnson is considered to be the best pitcher in history of baseball (especially by nostalgic pundits) and you'll find plenty of anecdotal evidence that his fastball routinely clocked 100 mph. These idiots think that since there was no measurement tools available, no one would actually question their claims. Unfortunately, Johnson's speed was measured at a munitions labratory in 1917 using a variation of Galileo's gravity drop method (pretty ingenious and gives remarkably accurate results - I had a physics lab in 10th grade and we got 8.6 m/s^2 for g). Anyways, those labratory folks managed to measure his fastball speed to 134 feet/s or about 92 mph, which was unheard of in that day and age (Johnson was considered the pitcher with the fastest fastball during his playing career). However, at present, every laloo panju pitches 92 mph or higher. So whenever I hear that syd barnes or larwood or keith miller were these express runaway freight trains, I just laugh.

[tothepoint]

I just wanna borrow something from baseball for a second. Walter Johnson is considered to be the best pitcher in history of baseball (especially by nostalgic pundits) and you'll find plenty of anecdotal evidence that his fastball routinely clocked 100 mph. These idiots think that since there was no measurement tools available, no one would actually question their claims. Unfortunately, Johnson's speed was measured at a munitions labratory in 1917 using a variation of Galileo's gravity drop method (pretty ingenious and gives remarkably accurate results - I had a physics lab in 10th grade and we got 8.6 m/s^2 for g). Anyways, those labratory folks managed to measure his fastball speed to 134 feet/s or about 92 mph, which was unheard of in that day and age (Johnson was considered the pitcher with the fastest fastball during his playing career). However, at present, every laloo panju pitches 92 mph or higher. So whenever I hear that syd barnes or larwood or keith miller were these express runaway freight trains, I just laugh.

Since you have brought baseball into the picture I would suggest you to go through this thread and tell these IDIOTS to just shut up :- http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?20992-Did-Pitchers-of-Yesteryear-Throw-With-quot-Much-Less-quot-Velocity-Than-They-Do-Today Could have copied and pasted a lot of stuff(research,views etc) but that wont do justice to their hardwork. I'm pretty sure you must have also missed this. "At the Aberdeen Proving Grounds he was measured using the ever-popular speeding motorcycle test, once used in 1914 with Walter Johnson who reached 99.7 mph, and Feller reached 98.6 mph." Don't forget to give equal importance to both 99.7mph and YEAR 1914. Also If you think lallu-panju Miller and Larwood were as fast as today's Agarkar and Prabhakar and you are laughing at this,then it's a win-win situtation for both of us. Cheers! PS : Faith in "God" WILL make you blind to Reality.

[The Dark Horse]

Check his spell after 6:00 to 6 :25.. bloody yorkers after yorkers!!...respect to the guys playing in that era without proper protection...

His action is similar to Malinga's

[surajmal]

Since you have brought baseball into the picture I would suggest you to go through this thread and tell these IDIOTS to just shut up :- http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?20992-Did-Pitchers-of-Yesteryear-Throw-With-quot-Much-Less-quot-Velocity-Than-They-Do-Today Could have copied and pasted a lot of stuff(research,views etc) but that wont do justice to their hardwork. I'm pretty sure you must have also missed this. "At the Aberdeen Proving Grounds he was measured using the ever-popular speeding motorcycle test, once used in 1914 with Walter Johnson who reached 99.7 mph, and Feller reached 98.6 mph." Don't forget to give equal importance to both 99.7mph and YEAR 1914. Also If you think lallu-panju Miller and Larwood were as fast as today's Agarkar and Prabhakar and you are laughing at this,then it's a win-win situtation for both of us. Cheers! PS : Faith in "God" WILL make you blind to Reality.

Lots of Anecdotes in that link. Anyways, I don't question Johnson "ability" throw in the high 90s. Throwing of the mound will definitely add couple of miles to the pitch (assuming he was pitching off flat ground during the test). But dialing up the fastball when babe ruth is on the mound (for 3-4 times a game) and coasting at 80 miles an hour for rest of the game is not the same as Justin Verlander or Randy Johnson hovering at 95-100 mph for entire outing. The pitching mechanics to sustain those kind of stresses are only possible after carefully understanding human kinetics (not possible in johnson's or even feller's days). Hell, the 5'10 Tim Lincecum came up throwing high 90s but that only last 3 years and now he is usually in low 90s and it will probably tail off even further even though his father design his pitching motion specifically for him through careful study. Coming back to the topic, other than word of mouth from English and Aussie cricket "historians", is there actual bloody proof regarding stated speeds of these speed merchants?

[tothepoint]

Lots of Anecdotes in that link. Anyways, I don't question Johnson "ability" throw in the high 90s. Throwing of the mound will definitely add couple of miles to the pitch (assuming he was pitching off flat ground during the test). But dialing up the fastball when babe ruth is on the mound (for 3-4 times a game) and coasting at 80 miles an hour for rest of the game is not the same as Justin Verlander or Randy Johnson hovering at 95-100 mph for entire outing. The pitching mechanics to sustain those kind of stresses are only possible after carefully understanding human kinetics (not possible in johnson's or even feller's days). Hell, the 5'10 Tim Lincecum came up throwing high 90s but that only last 3 years and now he is usually in low 90s and it will probably tail off even further even though his father design his pitching motion specifically for him through careful study. Coming back to the topic, other than word of mouth from English and Aussie cricket "historians", is there actual bloody proof regarding stated speeds of these speed merchants?

Yes there are lots of anecdotes but the general sentiment is the fastest pitchers of 1910s-20s could throw as fast as the fastest pitchers today(supported by lots of scientific proof). Coming back to cricket,if carefully understanding human kinetics is one of the most important factor,then how can you explain fast bowlers from WI and Pak of 70s-80s? Or do you thing even these great bowlers used to slow down considerably? And that historians within the quotes should be replaced with experts and fellow cricketers, they are the main culprits. Some proof that I have gathered is that Tyson clocked 89mph wearing two/three set of sweaters:- http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/story/86029.html But Bossbhai has already dismissed it saying Tyson said that himself. I hope you are not going to do the same thing.

[tothepoint]

I see what you're doing. Faith in "God" makes us blind to reality. But on the other hand, we must uncritically accept Tyson's claims to big himself up because why would he lie. Why indeed? Your faith is good but mine isn't? Bradman was a great of his era and he deserves a more sophisticated argument than what you've produced so far.

Ok so while Bradman was just an outlier, Tyson and others from 30s-70s were out and out liars. Anything else?

[The Outsider]

Looks like the Tendulkar brigades arguments just seem to hinge on somehow trying to prove each and every person who has seen Bradman and subsequent players bat is a yahoodi, hindoo, amreeki agent.

[surajmal]

Yes there are lots of anecdotes but the general sentiment is the fastest pitchers of 1910s-20s could throw as fast as the fastest pitchers today(supported by lots of scientific proof). Coming back to cricket,if carefully understanding human kinetics is one of the most important factor,then how can you explain fast bowlers from WI and Pak of 70s-80s? Or do you thing even these great bowlers used to slow down considerably? And that historians within the quotes should be replaced with experts and fellow cricketers, they are the main culprits. Some proof that I have gathered is that Tyson clocked 89mph wearing two/three set of sweaters:- http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/story/86029.html But Bossbhai has already dismissed it saying Tyson said that himself. I hope you are not going to do the same thing.

lots of Scientific proofs? you must be joking. You don't think over 30-40 years, the training regiment would improve? And while keith miller had the proper build to be a great fast bowler, if you think, with that bowling action, he was a express pacer, you've another thing coming. The other two were 6 foot or below white guys and in those days, "white men can't jump" truly applies. West Indian Indian bowlers have genetic advantage. Ask a scientist, how much they actually believe in visual evidence. This debate is a fvckin joke. Get me more than "he believed that" or "while batting he felt that". If you don't have recorded measurements, quit.

[msb1991]

lots of Scientific proofs? you must be joking. You don't think over 30-40 years, the training regiment would improve?

I am not speaking about any past bowlers specifically. However, there are bowlers these days who can touch 150kph without any scientific training. You cannot honestly say that Yadav and Aaron were scientifically coached, with methods that were not available 30 to 40 years ago and that this contributed to both being able to touch 150kph. It stands to reason that bowlers in the past could also touch 150kph and more talented bowlers (not that Yadav and Aaron aren't very talented), upwards toward 160kph, as I believe Thomson did. The place where science has had an impact as the increased fitness and strength, and slight improved biomechanics of the players meaning there are far more 140kph than there ever has been. County cricket was not full of English bowlers who can bowl 140kph, as it is today. You merely have to switch on a county match to see a bowler who a foreign fan would not have heard of, being able to bowl at 140kph.

[The Outsider]

^ What about "black guy" Hall who played in a similar era to Bradman and is universally regarded as phhaaaassshhht? So was he phaaaaasshht?

[surajmal]

^ What about "black guy" Hall who played in a similar era to Bradman and is universally regarded as phhaaaassshhht? So was he phaaaaasshht?

wes hall was great. Built like a tank. A genuine fast bowler compared to these ****** english bowlers. But he was born 1937, so remind me when bradman faced him?

[surajmal]

I am not speaking about any past bowlers specifically. However' date= there are bowlers these days who can touch 150kph without any scientific training. You cannot honestly say that Yadav and Aaron were scientifically coached, with methods that were not available 30 to 40 years ago and that this contributed to both being able to touch 150kph. It stands to reason that bowlers in the past could also touch 150kph and more talented bowlers (not that Yadav and Aaron aren't very talented), upwards toward 160kph, as I believe Thomson did. The place where science has had an impact as the increased fitness and strength, and slight improved biomechanics of the players meaning there are far more 140kph than there ever has been. County cricket was not full of English bowlers who can bowl 140kph, as it is today. You merely have to switch on a county match to see a bowler who a foreign fan would not have heard of, being able to bowl at 140kph.

Imitation is under rated. In their younger days didn't waqar and wasim try to copy, to an extent, Imran? (I read somewhere). Exactly. Bradman may have faced 1 or 2 genuine fast bowlers (by standards of his time) in his career; rest were trundlers supreme.