Sachin v/s Lax for Carnish

[zen]

Irony is (if you understand what it is) - I can clearly see the mutual masturbation going on here. Carry on' date=' I would not like to spoil the party.[/quote']

[Sachinism]

I m referring to unnecessary chatter like in the never ending thread that I happened to notice .... If you don't agree with something discuss with the poster where he is posting. You go to some meaningless thread where the posters doesn't even post or discuss his views you don't agree with and start talking amongst yourself how bad or idiotic or whatever a poster is then I get a right too to associate another bad quality to the profile of those posters :P

We tried that. But you vehemently persisted with it and back up your theory with even more stuff that made as little sense. So instead of reasoning with, we just laugh at you. And my point wasn't about that thread. Read what you said and think about how that could that apply to you and the other jokers (yoda, srtfanaticsuck). Anyways didn't expect you see to see the irony of it and you proved us right

[zen]

We tried that. But you vehemently persisted with it and back up your theory with even more stuff that made as little sense. So instead of reasoning with' date=' we just laugh at you. And my point wasn't about that thread. Read what you said and think about how that could that apply to you and the other jokers (yoda, srtfanaticsuck). Anyways didn't expect you see to see the irony of it and you proved us right[/quote'] And your findings will be supported by other fanatics :P May be you should run to some off topic thread and discuss and laugh how rett can't even get the irony .... Ego boosting exercises :hysterical:

[pensionplan]

Exactly, poor guy will fail to see. I think its time to just let him be, mental disintegration comes to mind

Are you a mod here? WoW. Scary.

[The Outsider]

Wasting-a-start: Do you agree that at some point good-start turns into good-contribution within some margin of error depending on perception of judge - as there are no known (not to me) well established standards.

Yes.

I have no issues, as long as you use same metric to make your top-N list. As I said, in my view - wasting a start is a bigger crime - esp. to an irresponsible shot, and I think many others share same view point. And I use same metric to judge (a certain aspect) of all players' performances - SRT, RSD, Laxman, Sehwag or whoever.

Brings me back to the Chennai 136. Irresponsible shot or not?

Also - point to be noted, I never go about creating "xyz-choked-again" or "abc-is-better-clutch-player" threads right after easy-to-guess-outcomes. It is a trademark characteristic of certain class of "hahaha-i am-not-a-fanatic" people.

Don't know about creating such threads, but you have certainly tried to trivialize Laxman's 73* at Mohali by trying to argue it was a pressure free knock as he had nothing to loose. Chasing 200 more runs from 80/5 with Mongia and the tail qualifies as pressure, but chasing 90 with 2 wickets left qualifies as fun in the park?

ab jo bakna hai bako...free ka keyboard/internet, aur time tumharey paas bhi hai.

Ye baat sach hai - got loads of free time today.

[pensionplan]

Don't know about creating such threads' date='[b'] but you have certainly tried to trivialize Laxman's 73* at Mohali by trying to argue it was a pressure free knock as he had nothing to loose. Chasing 200 more runs from 80/5 with Mongia and the tail qualifies as pressure, but chasing 90 with 2 wickets left qualifies as fun in the park?

Yup remember that from another thread. If SRT played that knock I am sure the take would have done a 180 degree.

[akshayxyz]

Another example of what I said .... When you hv to do that^ you know your egos need some boost :hysterical: Do I really value your opinion or judgment? Am I suppose to discuss what you think about me with you? Does talking amongst yourself lend any creditability to what you are saying as ppl with some sort of sense can make it out! .... And stll we see such meaningless chatter It can happen a few times but this has been happening too regularly .... Poor quality, I must say but irony is that you won't realize that because that comes naturally to some of you :P

Yes, you are right and sole purpose of existence of lesser beings like rest of us, is to fight for those similes and stuff that you dish out so generously. Life would be so meaningless w/o that.

[carnish]

The only reason I did that little stat thingy was because I wanted to know how they really compared. And you had promised to do it in the other thread (albeit on the next day of the day you said you would). So I waited for you to come up with it for 2-3 days and then I thought screw it lemme do it myself.

i would have gladly done it had it been just you and me.... i am here in this forum for fun and since i am a true follower of the game... just for argument sitting for long times in this blog and arguing doesnot excite me and you know how posters are in this forum... i am here to share my opinions and its not my problem if someone agrees to it or not... i can argue to some extent but going on and on isnt my cup of tea... however i did read your work and i must say some great work done by you:two_thumbs_up:

[Jersey #10]

Just to complete the troll job - "Yeah Laxman failed' date=' but he didn't fail as badly as God"[/quote'] you are not neutral, right? just pretending to be one...hater in disguise :((

[Sachinism]

Are you a mod here? WoW. Scary.

Hahaha another one that has been mentally disintegrated. You have nothing valid to debate so you talk about things that mean nothing. Have I used my mod powers to affect this debate? No, in that case this post of yours, like the rest of them is irrelevant. Go back to sitting on rett's knob or is it his turn now?

[The Outsider]

srtfanaticssuck, please don't bring about a posters moderator/admin status unless you feel he has been abusing it. In this thread I don't see Sachinism having deleted/edited any post?

[zen]

Go back to sitting on rett's knob or is it his turn now?

Nah, I don't think 'neutrals' do that Today, I am just winding things up here as I am preparing to go on a break from "online forums" so wont be posting much (may be occasionally) for a short period .... Interest in cricket might comeback for the Ind vs Aus series No hard feelings :icflove:

[akshayxyz]

Brings me back to the Chennai 136. Irresponsible shot or not?

I am fairly sure, it can not be dumber than what Laxman (and Dhoni, and Sehwag and Kohli, even Dravid) did today. Esp, given them number of runs required. In case of 136, I do not have any visual memories of that shot - I am assuming it must have been an act of desperation, given that the target was just 17 runs away and given what was expected off the other end, given the conditions and the pitch and precedences known at that moment I remember once Kapil hit 4 sixes in an over/in-a-row, when follow-on was just about as much runs away and the other end fell the next over. Had even one of those sixes failed - would you/others condemned Kapil's shot as much - given that it was inexcusable to follow-on? Also, even if the batsmen thinks that ball is to be hit - there is still a role that pitch and bowler plays, even a subtle variation (of bounce or turn or movement) can change a winning shot into a horrendous one. Specifically about Laxman's shot today, given the conditions and situations he is used to - as per his own standards and not comparing to anyone else, today's was pretty dumb shot, or perhaps just a tricky behavior of the pitch/bowler.

Don't know about creating such threads, but you have certainly tried to trivialize Laxman's 73* at Mohali by trying to argue it was a pressure free knock as he had nothing to loose. Chasing 200 more runs from 80/5 with Mongia and the tail qualifies as pressure, but chasing 90 with 2 wickets left qualifies as fun in the park?

There is a difference between "playing down his innings", and saying "in my opinion, in a nothing-to-lose situation I would feel more relaxed than pressurized". And from whatever little visuals I recall of that innings - it was much more tense in last 10-20 runs, than when Laxman and Ishant's partnership started. And I think I did clarify that, in my experience, I would be more anxious when end result is in sight, than otherwise. In other words - in my opinion, errors/'changes-in-natural-approach' due to anxiety are better indicators of pressure 'being felt' than the size/improbability of the task at hand. And of course, there is a possibility that some people can hide the visible signs of anxiety, but more often than not they do show up. There is a reason why there are examples of 'chokes' near the finishing line and 'comebacks' from rare positions.

[The Outsider]

I am fairly sure, it can not be dumber than what Laxman (and Dhoni, and Sehwag and Kohli, even Dravid) did today. Esp, given them number of runs required. In case of 136, I do not have any visual memories of that shot - I am assuming it must have been an act of desperation, given that the target was just 17 runs away and given what was expected off the other end, given the conditions and the pitch and precedences known at that moment

These kind of matches happen at intense concentration levels - when you have bowlers like Akram, Saqlain, and Waqar on a wearing pitch you look for the easiest scoring chance. Unfortunately for Tendulkar his back spasms and the intensity of the bowling attack got the better of him - it's a sport these things happen. I don't think Laxman's shot today was more or less retarded than Tendulkar's 12 years back.

I remember once Kapil hit 4 sixes in an over/in-a-row, when follow-on was just about as much runs away and the other end fell the next over. Had even one of those sixes failed - would you/others condemned Kapil's shot as much - given that it was inexcusable to follow-on? Also, even if the batsmen thinks that ball is to be hit - there is still a role that pitch and bowler plays, even a subtle variation (of bounce or turn or movement) can change a winning shot into a horrendous one.

Completely different scenarios - Kapil was down to the last wicket, Tendulkar still had 3 more - that's a huge difference. As I said in the above statement, even the bowlers are trying their best at such times and Akram and Saqlain were as good as any bowlers in the history of cricket at that point. It was a top class cricketing encounter in which Tendulkar lost after giving his best and hampered by back spasms. I think he might have won us the match if not for his back spasms, but what do you say of a performance from Marshall where he picked up a 7 wicket haul to win a test with an arm in a sling?

Specifically about Laxman's shot today, given the conditions and situations he is used to - as per his own standards and not comparing to anyone else, today's was pretty dumb shot, or perhaps just a tricky behavior of the pitch/bowler.

Laxman would always have some seemingly "dumb" shots. He does not have a water tight technique like Tendulkar which is also a reason why he has been able to play innings like 96.

There is a difference between "playing down his innings", and saying "in my opinion, in a nothing-to-lose situation I would feel more relaxed than pressurized". And from whatever little visuals I recall of that innings - it was much more tense in last 10-20 runs, than when Laxman and Ishant's partnership started. And I think I did clarify that, in my experience, I would be more anxious when end result is in sight, than otherwise. In other words - in my opinion, errors/'changes-in-natural-approach' due to anxiety are better indicators of pressure 'being felt' than the size/improbability of the task at hand. And of course, there is a possibility that some people can hide the visible signs of anxiety, but more often than not they do show up.

Of course it was more tense in the last 10-20 runs - doesn't mean it wasn't tense earlier or that Laxman batted with a nothing to lose attitude as you were implying.

[Jersey #10]

How to show that Sachin is not good, 1. Find Sachin's worst stat (the hardest part) 2. Find someone who has done better for that stat 3. Compare the two based on that stat and that stat only. Ignore everything else 4. Pretend to be winning the argument - or - 1. Make up some bull sh!t way of comparing stats, even if it defies the laws or math 2. Mend the stats and compare 3. Make up a mold that Sachin doesn't fit in 4. Pretend to be winning while continuing to repeat the BS. - what to ignore - 1. Understand that ODI records are crap and do not mean anything (this basically wins you half the battle) -------- Truth - There is no "one" that is better than Sachin as a whole batsman. You need a force of ATG's to even get close to what Sachin has achieved.

[pensionplan]

I do not think he is slightly better IMO to me decidedly better than SRT or for that matter other batsman too based on the fact he has the knack of coming up with these gems in difficult conditions and team ended up winning. Here are some other of VVS's 2nd inning(3rd or 4th match innings) heroics which helped India win close games outside of Eden 281 and Durban 96. Mohali 73* vs Aus Port of Spain 74 vs WI Perth 79 vs Aus Colombo 103* vs SL Johhanesburg 73 vs SA Mumbai 69 vs Aus. Chennai 66 vs Aus It will be very tough to come up with such a list for any of the batsman in team wins like the ones VVS had in recent memory. Instead of making it a comparison between players why can't we accept that VVS has been the best man to perform under crisis in which we won close games.

Look, if you want a list then here you go for 3rd and 4th innings - 119* Manchester v Eng 90 (saved the game) 104* Colombo v SL 93 (set up the 3rd innings for Indian victory) 85 Mumbai v WI 94 (set up the 3rd innings for Indian victory) 122 Birmingham v Eng 96 (second highest score 18, India lost) 155* Chennai v Aus 98 (set up the 3rd innings for Indian victory) 113 Wellington v NZ 99 (second highest score 48, India lost) 136 Chennai v Pak 99 (that one) 52 Melbourne v Aus 99 (the top 2 scores in the whole game was from him 116 and 52...same case like Lax's 96 and 38. The difference? Lax had Sreesanth, and Zak to make a fight whereas Sachin's teammates went hiding) 65 Mumbai v Aus 2001 (again top 2 scores in the match from him) 55 Mumbai v Aus 2004 (same game where Lax scored 69) ....alright I am tired of doing this anymore. I already told you that I consider Lax slightly better than Sachin. Now dont start digging into this innings and that innings coz there would be no end to it. Fact is that both of them have played gems and have won games. The difference between them ain't so great that one is can be considered head and shoulders above the other.

To the victor goes the spoils. The innings I listed are the gems played by VVS in which India won with no strings attached as you are doing "teammates went hiding" etc etc. I too can come up with such innings for a VVS or a RD like the ones you listed for SRT in which the teammates might have messed it up thus ending the game in a draw or a loss. So what you are saying does not cut it and what you see as slightly better is decidedly better for me in favor of VVS based on his game winning 3rd or 4th inning knocks. And one more thing SRT too played with the same team and at the same time as VVS did so he too had similar chances only that VVS is the one who had the knack to come up with such 2nd inning gems that outright resulted in wins. That is how it goes in sports keeping all the if's and but's aside.

[Raghav_12]

Nah, I don't think 'neutrals' do that Today, I am just winding things up here as I am preparing to go on a break from "online forums" so wont be posting much (may be occasionally) for a short period .... Interest in cricket might comeback for the Ind vs Aus series No hard feelings :icflove:

Oh Rett, You'll be missed :((. Cricket_2_Death err... Nonsense_2_Death will miss you too. Don't feel bad about being discussed in Never Ending Thread. Only legends are discussed there and when you see you being discussed there, you know what it means :winky: :two_thumbs_up::two_thumbs_up:

[CSK Fan]

To the victor goes the spoils. The innings I listed are the gems played by VVS in which India won with no strings attached as you are doing "teammates went hiding" etc etc. I too can come up with such innings for a VVS or a RD like the ones you listed for SRT in which the teammates might have messed it up thus ending the game in a draw or a loss. So what you are saying does not cut it and what you see as slightly better is decidedly better for me in favor of VVS based on his game winning 3rd or 4th inning knocks. And one more thing SRT too played with the same team and at the same time as VVS did so he too had similar chances only that VVS is the one who had the knack to come up with such 2nd inning gems that outright resulted in wins. That is how it goes in sports keeping all the if's and but's aside.

But its also a fact that we have a much better team during the peak form of Laxman and Dravid and the chances of team-mates messing up are pretty low. Even Laxman's 281 might have been in a lost/draw match if not for Harbhajan's bowling. Also take a gander at how many successful 4th innings chases have been in the last 6-7 years comapred to the 90s. Where the batsmen of the 90s all unanimously bad at chasing or have the pitches been lasting for the entire 5 days? In the recent Aus-Sa series in both the matches, the highest scores and the easiest batting were in the 4th innings, somthing unheard of Also you keep on repeating about Sachin and VVS being in the same team, but the difference is that when we had a decent team Laxman was in his peak form while Sachin is a batsman past his prime carrying injury for a good period of that comparison. Despite this Sachin has had some very good 4th innings knock too, all in the last 4-5 years when he was back to some form, the Chennai winning 100 being the best example. Now imagine the same Sachin in his peak form with the same team. I have said this before, but the scary thing with Sachin is that he still has time to prove his detractors wrong. His failure in SA was touted a lot by his critics but he made that right in the last series. Wait and watch he might even prove you wrong in this point. There are very few holes left in his resume as a batsman and he is filling those too, one by one.