Flintoff's lift

[gator]

even Gangs, Tendulkar have done tht... contributed matchwinningly with both bat and ball in some matches.... they are not allrounders- are they??? nothing special about a bowler who has 2 5fers in his career, whichever way u look at it....

[Donny]

mm, FF no more turns/wins a match (using the example you gave) than any other cricketer. To win a Test in one session, a player would need to take 4 or 5 wickets or hit big runs when his team was in trouble. And I mean BIG runs like Ian Botham did in an Ashes Test against Australia. To assert, "If he hadn't taken those wickets, Australia would've won in all probability" is drawing a very long bow, considering 20 wickets are needed for a win. Besides, it's completely hypothetical as to what could've happened if he didn't. In many, many Tests, players turn in good performances. That's what they're selected for.

[Ram]

I understand that its completely hypothetical to think about what would have happend , if Flintoff hadnt taken those two wickets. But , it would also be a little naive claim that , that particualar over from Flintofff didnt contribute in a major way in terms of affecting the result of the match. That over was essentially the turning point of the Aussie second innings. Things were going on VERY smoothly for them and as Mark Nicholas claims, Flintoff had 'knocked the game on its head" Not only did i put forward that particular over as something to back up my claim, but his performance through the entire match to highlight that he was the DIFFERENCE between the two teams. I never claimed that Flintoff was England's best match-winner. I claimed that he had the talent to turn a test match in a session. I stick to that claim.

[Donny]

Actually, this is what you claimed: "He can win/turn matches in a session."

[Ram]

Actually' date=' this is what you claimed: "He can win/turn matches in a session."[/quote'] Yes. I thought i had provided enough to back that claim. Namely the Edgbaston test and the 3rd test at Nagpur in 2005.

[The Outsider]

Didn't Flintoff do it with the bat as well at Edgbaston adding around 100 runs with the tail in the second innings?

[Donny]

http://www.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2005/AUS_IN_ENG/SCORECARDS/AUS_ENG_T2_04-08AUG2005.html

[The Outsider]

^ Exactly. Instead of chasing 200 Australia ended up chasing close to 300.

[Gambit]

Anyone remember Flinty's knock with Harmy at the other end against SA in 2003? An awesome display of hitting which, eventually, turned the test in England's favour.