Brainfade Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 A sobering NY Times article (long). http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/business/apple-america-and-a-squeezed-middle-class.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1&ref=todayspaper Excerpt: Apple executives say that going overseas, at this point, is their only option. One former executive described how the company relied upon a Chinese factory to revamp iPhone manufacturing just weeks before the device was due on shelves. Apple had redesigned the iPhoneÃÔ screen at the last minute, forcing an assembly line overhaul. New screens began arriving at the plant near midnight. A foreman immediately roused 8,000 workers inside the companyÃÔ dormitories, according to the executive. Each employee was given a biscuit and a cup of tea, guided to a workstation and within half an hour started a 12-hour shift fitting glass screens into beveled frames. Within 96 hours, the plant was producing over 10,000 iPhones a day. ŵhe speed and flexibility is breathtaking, the executive said. ŵhereÃÔ no American plant that can match that. Unmatched speed and flexibility resulting from unmatched exploitation? And there seems to be no solution in sight. Thoughts?
Vijay.Sharma Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 Zeitgeist! Sign of the times. We are lucky we are not as good as China in manufacturing otherwise imagine how many Infosys for Manufacturing would've been started up here!
bulbul Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 Zeitgeist! Sign of the times. We are lucky we are not as good as China in manufacturing otherwise imagine how many Infosys for Manufacturing would've been started up here! isthat Bad thing ? agree the Human conditions in Foxxcon factory not good...but do you really think we dont have any such issues here in India ??
Lurker Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 Unmatched speed and flexibility resulting from unmatched exploitation? And there seems to be no solution in sight. Thoughts? Few thoughts : a) Why is such exploitation not an issue in the West? For far less than this West goes after companies that utilize childrens as laborers. I am not advocating child labor in any way but if grown up are made to work 12 hours extra for a cup of tea there is something fundamentally wrong there. b) The opposite side of the spectrum is how an average American still refuses to "lower" his own standards. Last Friday we had an issue where couple of folks took off because they had their children baseball game even though we were in Production mode. There is something fundamentally wrong with this model too. c) What happens to all the Apple Iphone lovers now?? Would they care or does it matter to them at all? :winky:
bulbul Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 Few thoughts : a) Why is such exploitation not an issue in the West? For far less than this West goes after companies that utilize childrens as laborers. I am not advocating child labor in any way but if grown up are made to work 12 hours extra for a cup of tea there is something fundamentally wrong there. i think this Tea/Biscuit thing is bit exaggerated...its given before work started as they are woken up during midnight? so just have to assume they got to eat in between b) The opposite side of the spectrum is how an average American still refuses to "lower" his own standards. Last Friday we had an issue where couple of folks took off because they had their children baseball game even though we were in Production mode. There is something fundamentally wrong with this model too. May be one more Deep recession makes US guys to rethink about their life style and start adjusting.. c) What happens to all the Apple Iphone lovers now?? Would they care or does it matter to them at all? :winky Foxcon assemble for all the major elctronic gaints..so you have to stop buying most of the items from any other brands (you may have read recently about Suicide attempt by workers who assemble Xbox)
Lurker Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 i think this Tea/Biscuit thing is bit exaggerated...its given before work started as they are woken up during midnight? so just have to assume they got to eat in between That was my first thought. However this being an article of NY Times made it more trust worthy. May be one more deep recession makes US guys to rethink about their life style and start adjusting.. Doubt it really. We are now in 4th year of recession. When it has not changed in 4th would it change in 6th(say)? Foxcon assemble for all the major elctronic gaints..so you have to stop buying most of the items from any other brands (you may have read recently about Suicide attempt by workers who assemble Xbox) Probably not a bad idea, is it? How reasonable is it to text on Iphone that may have been compiled by a poor worked for an extra cup of tea? Or play on Xbox with friends which had been compiled by poor soul contemplating suicide? Good thing I own neither :--D
bulbul Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 That was my first thought. However this being an article of NY Times made it more trust worthy. i dont know whether i read in same article or some where else (today only) that Foxconn kitcen prepares 3 tonne pork and 15 tonne rice per day...so food may not be a problem.. Doubt it really. We are now in 4th year of recession. When it has not changed in 4th would it change in 6th(say)? i dont think this recession is affecting anyone much...Stock markets moved Up, Job maket improved etc Probably not a bad idea, is it? How reasonable is it to text on Iphone that may have been compiled by a poor worked for an extra cup of tea? Or play on Xbox with friends which had been compiled by poor soul contemplating suicide? as i already told you have to stop buying most of the Items not only these 2.. from wiki Foxconn manufactures products for companies including: (country of headquarters in parentheses) Acer Inc. (Taiwan) Amazon.com (United States)[24] In 2011, Amazon and Foxconn formed a joint-design manufacturing company. The move was meant to produce an Amazon branded smartphone sometime in 2012.[25] Apple Inc. (United States)[26] ASRock (Taiwan) Asus (Taiwan) Barnes & Noble (United States) Cisco (United States) Dell (United States) EVGA Corporation (United States) Hewlett-Packard (United States)[27] Intel (United States) IBM (United States) Lenovo (China) Logitech (Switzerland) Microsoft (United States) MSI (Taiwan) Motorola (United States) Netgear (United States) Nintendo (Japan) Nokia (Finland)[26] Panasonic (Japan) Philips (Netherlands) Sharp (Japan) Sony Ericsson (Japan/Sweden)[28] Toshiba (Japan) Vizio (United States)
Lurker Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 i dont think this recession is affecting anyone much...Stock markets moved Up, Job maket improved etc Really? This recession is affecting everyone at home, and abroad mate. Look at Europe, for instance, and how its economy is working. In US, the affect has been very much dependent on what your line of work is. If you are in Housing Industry you are essentially on welfare for a while now. If you are in Academics you have been advserly affected by little or no grants coming your way. Manufacturing has been hit. Services is the only sector which has not been affected much, technology and consulting being a part of it. Otherwise joblessness is all time high, housing market is down. And dont worry about Stock market. Not sure when it happened, but somewhere from being relegated to a snapshot on lower bottom on a daily newspaper it has suddenly become the lead indicator of economy today. Half of the world's problem is down to this stock market nonsense, I think, but hey I am a left leaning liberal.:two_thumbs_up:
Clarke Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 I read the entire article earlier, stuff that makes NYT one of the best in business. Some more highlights i thought i should pinpoint that relate to each party in the equation: Corporate responsibility: companies once felt an obligation to support American workers, even when it wasnÃÕ the best financial choice, said Betsey Stevenson, the chief economist at the Labor Department until last September. ŵhatÃÔ disappeared. Profits and efficiency have trumped generosity Consumer awareness: various academics and manufacturing analysts estimate that because labor is such a small part of technology manufacturing, paying American wages would add up to $65 to each iPhoneÃÔ expense. Since AppleÃÔ profits are often hundreds of dollars per phone, building domestically, in theory, would still give the company a healthy reward. A comment that i found very worthwhile (NYT pick as well): Governmental responsibility: As an Apple shareholder, and lover and owner of Apple products, I feel obliged to comment on this article. Paying workers $17 a day is why Tim Cook can earn almost half a billion dollars a year and why Steve Jobs could commission a yacht that costs hundreds of millions. G R E E D. Nothing else to it; American workers are skilled (the Boeing aircraft built in this country attest to it) and supply chain logistics are not a Chinese skill (I spent 24 years working in the logistics industry). Apple is a trans-national corporation; it does NOT owe any allegiance to the United States or any other nation; it owes its only allegiance to itself. The Republicans have paved the way for the United States to have the lowest import tariffs in the world (about a tenth of that of India or China) which opened the door for the flood of foreign made goods and the rapid loss of American jobs. Some remedies would include raising import tariffs and taxing corporate income at the same rate --whether earned overseas or domestically. The Republicans are turning the United States into a version of Haiti: A handful of people (the 1%) who make fantastic wealth, a non-existent middle class, and everyone else (99%) scrounging through garbage mounds for the scraps.As an Apple shareholder, and lover and owner of Apple products, I feel obliged to comment on this article. Paying workers $17 a day is why Tim Cook can earn almost half a billion dollars a year and why Steve Jobs could commission a yacht that costs hundreds of millions. G R E E D. Nothing else to it; American workers are skilled (the Boeing aircraft built in this country attest to it) and supply chain logistics are not a Chinese skill (I spent 24 years working in the logistics industry). Apple is a trans-national corporation; it does NOT owe any allegiance to the United States or any other nation; it owes its only allegiance to itself. The Republicans have paved the way for the United States to have the lowest import tariffs in the world (about a tenth of that of India or China) which opened the door for the flood of foreign made goods and the rapid loss of American jobs. Some remedies would include raising import tariffs and taxing corporate income at the same rate --whether earned overseas or domestically. The Republicans are turning the United States into a version of Haiti: A handful of people (the 1%) who make fantastic wealth, a non-existent middle class, and everyone else (99%) scrounging through garbage mounds for the scraps.[
Clarke Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 b) The opposite side of the spectrum is how an average American still refuses to "lower" his own standards. Last Friday we had an issue where couple of folks took off because they had their children baseball game even though we were in Production mode. There is something fundamentally wrong with this model too. Maybe that depends on where u are in US. I've never seen anyone hesitate working multiple nights/weekends at a stretch over here and i reckon that's because this is one of the hardest hit regions in the country over the last decade. Then again, we're IT & not unionized.
Brainfade Posted January 23, 2012 Author Posted January 23, 2012 It's not about the biscuits, tea or rice and pork. It is about liberty and choice. I realize that survival is paramount, and that the impoverished workers are perhaps content to gratefully consume rationed rice & pork and tea & biscuits, and work extremely hard so they don't lose even that. But, that is not true freedom. Does their hard work lead to being able to lift themselves beyond the mundane, and make free choices? Start a business? Own a home? Does the prosperity of the collective nation trickle down to individual prosperity? Or is that a luxury only some societies deserve? Or maybe it is just a matter of time? @ Lurker: your point about reversed values at the workplace - you are absolutely right. The pendulum seems to have swung the other way in many cases. People have a sense of entitlement without having to pay the price for their choices. On a related note, it is easy to see how labor has priced itself out. $40, $50, $60 bucks an hour for routine skills.
Lurker Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 Profits and efficiency have trumped generosity This is something I am seeing everyday in my own line of work. As a Business Intelligence guy my entire work has revolved with working with Senior Execs and allowing them to get to the data to make best decisions on their own. The biggest difference that I am seeing from Senior Execs of 90s to that of class of 2005 onwards is how short sighted they are. Earlier they all had 5-10 year plans, budgeted accordingly and then compared Actuals with Forecasted data. These days it is all Internet era with real time comparison. Okay great. But that also means the forecasting is down to a year at most, often even smaller. How do you make great companies, create good jobs when you are so sighted. You wont even marry a girl you saw for less than a year? Why work for a company like that? The other aspect is Share Market. Too many these short sightedness is driven by the market. Sure Apple can build it in US and instead of 299$ price tag make that 365$. But would the market, the shareholders agree to that? And yes that includes you and me. The reason why Stock Market has gloriously effed United States, and increasingly the world, is because much as you and I hate the Oil companies and their Billion Dollar profits, if we have a chance to buy their shares wouldnt we??:((
Lurker Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 It's not about the biscuits, tea or rice and pork. It is about liberty and choice. I realize that survival is paramount, and that the impoverished workers are perhaps content to gratefully consume rationed rice & pork and tea & biscuits, and work extremely hard so they don't lose even that. But, that is not true freedom. Does their hard work lead to being able to lift themselves beyond the mundane, and make free choices? Start a business? Own a home? Does the prosperity of the collective nation trickle down to individual prosperity? Or is that a luxury only some societies deserve? Or maybe it is just a matter of time? If I had a dime for everytime anyone mentions the word freedom these days :woot: CA, you are being a tad unfair. One can always use cases like this to feel good about oneself, in this case US society. There is nothing good to feel about. Chinese workers are getting exploited, American company (Apple) is making hand over fist, American worker does not have a job, and a 22 year old will put all his months savings into his iPhone. Nothing good in that model, if you ask me.
bulbul Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 It's not about the biscuits' date=' tea or rice and pork. It is about[b'] liberty and choice. I realize that survival is paramount, and that the impoverished workers are perhaps content to gratefully consume rationed rice & pork and tea & biscuits, and work extremely hard so they don't lose even that. But, that is not true freedom. Does their hard work lead to being able to lift themselves beyond the mundane, and make free choices? Start a business? Own a home? Does the prosperity of the collective nation trickle down to individual prosperity? Or is that a luxury only some societies deserve? Or maybe it is just a matter of time? . Good to hear and read but reality is different...take example in India if u spend more than 32rs per day means you are not Poor..what do you expect such people worry most about ? Liberty or Seeing thru each day? Every one have Dreams not for themselves atleast for thier kids but not everyone can start Buseness , build home etc..so people make compromises and move on with life by working for Average salary
Alchemist Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 Maybe that depends on where u are in US. I've never seen anyone hesitate working multiple nights/weekends at a stretch over here and i reckon that's because this is one of the hardest hit regions in the country over the last decade. Then again, we're IT & not unionized. When it comes to production and hourly workers in US. The companies are abided by some laws so that they cannot take advantage of people. People at my company do work extra hours. But for extra cash. So unless we are looking at some good profit by running extra, we dont run over time. Also, with all the cost cuttings, the managers are given "over time" targets per month. So the supervisors hesitate to call the operators for some overtime if the work is nor super important.
Brainfade Posted January 23, 2012 Author Posted January 23, 2012 If I had a dime for everytime anyone mentions the word freedom these days :woot: CA, you are being a tad unfair. One can always use cases like this to feel good about oneself, in this case US society. There is nothing good to feel about. Chinese workers are getting exploited, American company (Apple) is making hand over fist, American worker does not have a job, and a 22 year old will put all his months savings into his iPhone. Nothing good in that model, if you ask me. . Good to hear and read but reality is different...take example in India if u spend more than 32rs per day means you are not Poor..what do you expect such people worry most about ? Liberty or Seeing thru each day? Every one have Dreams not for themselves atleast for thier kids but not everyone can start Buseness , build home etc..so people make compromises and move on with life by working for Average salary You guys misunderstood my post. Lurker, I was in no way criticizing the Chinese workers, but the system that is exploiting them to where they cannot think of translating hard work into advancement. I was criticizing the model, and pointing out how ironic it is that the US celebrates liberty and economic freedom, but the luxuries are enjoyed on the backs of exploited workers. dumdum, I understand that "freedom" and "liberty" are romantic notions. Note that I mention that "survival is paramount, and the workers are gratefully content." I am just pointing out that a better society would provide opportunities for these workers to advance beyond survival. As it stands now, they don't seem to have that opportunity. But, you are right, too ... at least, they have a job and can provide for themselves. Maybe their next generation will take a step forward towards "freedom."
Vijay.Sharma Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 isthat Bad thing ? agree the Human conditions in Foxxcon factory not good...but do you really think we dont have any such issues here in India ??Nothing is actually universally good or bad. Everything becomes good or bad based on t,s,p,c
Stuge Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 from wiki How will I access ICF if I stop buying computer parts ?? :((:(( Shame we are using stuff which is made by the people who are exploited :((
Lurker Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 I was criticizing the model' date=' and pointing out how ironic it is that the [b']US celebrates liberty and economic freedom, but the luxuries are enjoyed on the backs of exploited workers. So a few years back I was running Accounting Reports for one of the world's largest copper company based out of AZ (it was eventually merged with one of the world's largest gold company). One of the KPIs for this company was called P3 (Price Per Pound) of Copper. Since this company had mines all over the world the P3 was broken down by region. Here is a sample of how it looked. P3 in USA - 100c/lb P3 in Peru/Chile - 15c/lb P3 in Congo/other parts of Africa - 1c/lb (figures for illustration purpose only of course). The non-US companies were helping the bottomline, boosting the profits and share market, thus making the workers, and US citizens rich. Had it been depedent on US mines only, the copper company may have either made a loss or shut down. You truly beleive Chinese workers are the only lot who has helped US citizen celebrate "economic freedom"?? xxx
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