Experts comment on Sachin's retirement (Kapil, Ganguly and Vengsarkar)

[Late Cut]

I couldnt agree more with most of your points. Specifically how we tend to have no repurcussions for non performance. No wonder we suck at sports overall. Where I am unsure if I am getting you correctly though is the seniority value you are talking of. Lets take an example of the support that Sachin is getting, do you think it comes form the fact that he may be senior to some of the fans here? Just curious.

Senority in this instance does not have to do with age, but rather the fact that SRT isa senior in the team, and as such venerated, and as with our culture, considered godlike. This goes beyond considering him an exceptional athlete; for example, the most phenomenal athlete of our times is Michael Jordan; however culturally, you'll still notice that though considered a great, no one questioned the fact that his skill set was declining, and his role changed vastly over time. I would more call it the Bachan Phenomenon. :--D Lets also take case of SRTand his development. He was exceptionally skilled, but also got the opportunity to gain experience at the highest level to perform optimally at his peak. For example, his statistics in the first four years of his career in tests and ODIs are rather odinary. However, those were the years of needed experience that athletes need to maximize their skill set. It is those formative years that are valuable to an athlete in evolving to perform at his peak. Unfortunately, hero worship "forgets" this period in an athletes career, and the fact that it is needed in developing the needed skill set. People act and think s if SRT was born this way, and was this way from the begining, which does disservice to SRT as well as to those who might replace him, or others in the future. I would recommend reading Outliers by Malcom Galdwell. A lot of it is about aptitude and experience and applies well to a lot of areas.

[Raghav_12]

Senority in this instance does not have to do with age, but rather the fact that SRT isa senior in the team, and as such venerated, and as with our culture, considered godlike. This goes beyond considering him an exceptional athlete; for example, the most phenomenal athlete of our times is Michael Jordan; however culturally, you'll still notice that though considered a great, no one questioned the fact that his skill set was declining, and his role changed vastly over time. I would more call it the Bachan Phenomenon. :--D Lets also take case of SRTand his development. He was exceptionally skilled, but also got the opportunity to gain experience at the highest level to perform optimally at his peak. For example, his statistics in the first four years of his career in tests and ODIs are rather odinary. However, those were the years of needed experience that athletes need to maximize their skill set. It is those formative years that are valuable to an athlete in evolving to perform at his peak. Unfortunately, hero worship "forgets" this period in an athletes career, and the fact that it is needed in developing the needed skill set. People act and think s if SRT was born this way, and was this way from the begining, which does disservice to SRT as well as to those who might replace him, or others in the future. I would recommend reading Outliers by Malcom Galdwell. A lot of it is about aptitude and experience and applies well to a lot of areas.

This suggestion that for first four years, Tendulkar was granted a position in team based on his talent couldn't have been further away from truth. Look at these batting numbers for Indian batsmen for those four years and decide yourself whether he was granted a position or he deserved a position in team. Test's http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;spanmax1=14+Nov+1993;spanmin1=15+Nov+1989;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=batting ODI's http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;spanmax1=14+Nov+1993;spanmin1=15+Nov+1989;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=batting And there are Tendulkar's numbers in tests if you remove his very first year of cricket. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;spanmax2=14+Nov+1993;spanmin2=15+Nov+1990;spanval2=span;team=6;template=results;type=batting

[Late Cut]

This suggestion that for first four years, Tendulkar was granted a position in team based on his talent couldn't have been further away from truth. Look at these batting numbers for Indian batsmen for those four years and decide yourself whether he was granted a position or he deserved a position in team. Test's http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;spanmax1=14+Nov+1993;spanmin1=15+Nov+1989;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=batting ODI's http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;spanmax1=14+Nov+1993;spanmin1=15+Nov+1989;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=batting And there are Tendulkar's numbers in tests if you remove his very first year of cricket. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/class=1;spanmax2=14+Nov+1993;spanmin2=15+Nov+1990;spanva l2=span;team=6;template=results;type=batting

I havent alluded to the whys at all in my post, just the fact that you need experience and exposure at the right time to maximize ones talent. As for statistics, its a pet peeve of mine, being a statistics minor and all. It is easy to mislead people with numbers; for example, you could run the same numbers to 1992 nov and come up with vastly different results, you can run the same query limited to odis and make all sorts of arguments as to why SRT should not have been part of the odi set up. Numbers can be vastly misleading without proper parameters. I do wonder why though, that you appear to be so defensive? You created a strawman argument to make a certain assertion when no such argument or position was presented to begin with. It appears to be a trend.

[The Dark Horse]

Why is nobody discussing whether Dhoni is partial or not, as Kapil said:popcorn:

[CG]

Why is nobody discussing whether Dhoni is partial or not' date=' as Kapil said:popcorn:[/quote'] Whats to discuss,everybody knows it.

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[The Outsider]

---If everything is for WC2015, why do you care for this and small series. FYI, in 1992 when the WC happened in Aus, Indian team was there in those conditions 3 months before the WC and we did not even reached SF. And according to you if Mukund or Rahane play today 3 yr before 2015 WC here they will win us the WC.

Frankly, I don't care much for these series. In fact I hardly get the time to watch or follow much cricket anyways these days - the occasional highlights is about the extent. But look around and see that a lot of other countries have started their ODI planning with the 2015 WC in mind already. Clearly shows what the biggest catch in ODI cricket is and teams use these kind of series to plan and prepare for the next World Cup. It doesn't have to be at the cost of heavy losses - the things are mutually exclusive.

--Sure but why only in place of arguably greatest ODI player of all time, why not in place of Sehwag, tried and tested failure in overseas conditions

Haan to kar do drop Sehwag ko - am I complaining? Give Gambhir and Rahane a decent run of 15-20 ODIs at the top.

--Again Tendulkar did not decided one fine day to play a series but he decided not to play a series which coincidentally gave Rahane the chance to play so you and everybody should be greatful to Sachin for giving the youngster

You're contradicting yourself. As you've said that Tendulkar does not play the vast majority of India's ODIs anymore. So the norm is Tendulkar not playing ODIs for India and the day he gets out of some side of the bed he decides to play the occasional series.

I am repeating again only 4 out of last 25 ODI he has played itne matches averagely barish se dhul jaate hain, so stop making this man responsible for everything. Rahane got chance and he will surely but why again for this man why not Sehwag or Gambhir

So you're fine with someone playing a quarter of the team's ODI load in a year on his whims and fancies (and sucking in them on current evidence)? What's going to happen next? He is going to "rest" from the Asia Cup, play the entire IPL season, and come back a year later to play 6-7 more ODIs and you have no problems with that arrangement?

[Lurker]

Senority in this instance does not have to do with age, but rather the fact that SRT isa senior in the team, and as such venerated, and as with our culture, considered godlike. This goes beyond considering him an exceptional athlete; for example, the most phenomenal athlete of our times is Michael Jordan; however culturally, you'll still notice that though considered a great, no one questioned the fact that his skill set was declining, and his role changed vastly over time. I would more call it the Bachan Phenomenon. :--D Lets also take case of SRTand his development. He was exceptionally skilled, but also got the opportunity to gain experience at the highest level to perform optimally at his peak. For example, his statistics in the first four years of his career in tests and ODIs are rather odinary. However, those were the years of needed experience that athletes need to maximize their skill set. It is those formative years that are valuable to an athlete in evolving to perform at his peak. Unfortunately, hero worship "forgets" this period in an athletes career, and the fact that it is needed in developing the needed skill set. People act and think s if SRT was born this way, and was this way from the begining, which does disservice to SRT as well as to those who might replace him, or others in the future.

Thanks for clarifying. Yes I do understand better where you are coming from and couldnt agree more on SRT's formative years and how it helped him become the batsman he eventually did. That brings me up to a question though - How difficult it is for someone like SRT to give up cricket? He has been playing/thinking cricket since he was a kid. He has not really done anything outside of it, maybe one more reason why he wants to extend it as much as he can. Same with perhaps any other seniors, like Bacchan lol

I would recommend reading Outliers by Malcom Galdwell. A lot of it is about aptitude and experience and applies well to a lot of areas.

Couldnt beleive you mentioned that. Finished it last month as part of my book-listen while driving to work. You may wanna try Innovator's Dilemma by Clayton Christensen

[akshayxyz]

one trivia on "to start preparing for 2015 WC already". AFAIK - Dhoni mentioned, after 2011WC win, that they started planning for 2011 WC about 1.5 years in advance only. Before that the focus was on #test ranking. It does not mean that we should not think about 2015WC at all. But, it means winning current tournament/matches should be highest priority. 2015WC specific trial/exposure runs can wait until mid/late 2013. As for giving some young guns experience of OZ pitches as a preparation for some event which is 3 years away - does not make sense. With the amount of cricket that is going to be played in before WC, last 1 year of conditioning / experience will weigh in much more than these 5-6 matches.

[Khalpat]

Frankly, I don't care much for these series. In fact I hardly get the time to watch or follow much cricket anyways these days - the occasional highlights is about the extent. But look around and see that a lot of other countries have started their ODI planning with the 2015 WC in mind already. Clearly shows what the biggest catch in ODI cricket is and teams use these kind of series to plan and prepare for the next World Cup. It doesn't have to be at the cost of heavy losses - the things are mutually exclusive. Haan to kar do drop Sehwag ko - am I complaining? Give Gambhir and Rahane a decent run of 15-20 ODIs at the top. You're contradicting yourself. As you've said that Tendulkar does not play the vast majority of India's ODIs anymore. So the norm is Tendulkar not playing ODIs for India and the day he gets out of some side of the bed he decides to play the occasional series. So you're fine with someone playing a quarter of the team's ODI load in a year on his whims and fancies (and sucking in them on current evidence)? What's going to happen next? He is going to "rest" from the Asia Cup, play the entire IPL season, and come back a year later to play 6-7 more ODIs and you have no problems with that arrangement?

Thanks Outty, first time some one has given sensible reply without labeling me as bhakth and talking wrt to Indian team and its future and not full of hatred for one player. Now I can understand what message you want to convey and believe me we both are on same page when we talk about our concern about Indian Cricket team. My only concern is here is one player who has been part of around 60% of total Indian team win from the time India started playing ODI(1974). He must also be having some thought for our team and its future, lets give some more time its still more than 3 years till the World Cup 2015 before coming out with sword. Lets not question his intentions, his credibility. Itna to usne kiya hai na humare liye. I dont know of you but I am watching Cricket from Reliance World Cup 1987 and Sachin has become a kind of habit for most of us. Do not redicule him for Rahane or any new player by questioning his credibility. He is still better than most of the ODI batsman of world.

[tothepoint]

Thanks Outty' date=' first time some one has given sensible reply without labeling me as bhakth and talking wrt to Indian team and its future and not full of hatred for one player. Now I can understand what message you want to convey and believe me we both are on same page when we talk about our concern about Indian Cricket team. My only concern is here is one player who has been part of around 60% of total Indian team win from the time India started playing ODI(1974). He must also be having some thought for our team and its future, lets give some more time its still more than 3 years till the World Cup 2015 before coming out with sword. Lets not question his intentions, his credibility. Itna to usne kiya hai na humare liye. I dont know of you but I am watching Cricket from Reliance World Cup 1987 and Sachin has become a kind of habit for most of us. Do not redicule him for Rahane or any new player by questioning his credibility. He is still better than most of the ODI batsman of world.[/quote'] Not labeling you a bakth or anything as such :dontmentionit: but hasnt Sachin played in 23 years out of 38(that is more than 60%) since 1974?

[akshayxyz]

Thanks Outty' date=' first time some one has given sensible reply without labeling me as bhakth and talking wrt to Indian team and its future and not full of hatred for one player. Now I can understand what message you want to convey and believe me we both are on same page when we talk about our concern about Indian Cricket team. My only concern is here is one player who has been part of around 60% of total Indian team win from the time India started playing ODI(1974). [b']He must also be having some thought for our team and its future, lets give some more time its still more than 3 years till the World Cup 2015 before coming out with sword. Lets not question his intentions, his credibility. Itna to usne kiya hai na humare liye. I dont know of you but I am watching Cricket from Reliance World Cup 1987 and Sachin has become a kind of habit for most of us. Do not redicule him for Rahane or any new player by questioning his credibility. He is still better than most of the ODI batsman of world.

This. Only correction would be, we can't wait until right before world cup..rather until mid-late 2013.

[Raghav_12]

This. Only correction would be, we can't wait until right before world cup..rather until mid-late 2013.

This preparing team for world -cup has been overhyped. India as a team has never planned thing keeping such long term visions. For this WC, that we won also, we picked Piyush Chawla who hasn't played any ODI for team India two years, on either side of WC. We picked Ashwin who was omitted from Indian team for SA ODI series just before the WC. Looking at the way India has gone about WC's in past, it's really laughable that people find it catastrophic that Sachin holds a place of somebody who'll play WC some 3 years down the line. Reality is, in these three years, we'll change three set of players and players selected for WC will not be coming from any of these sets.

[The Outsider]

Dropping Ganguly and Dravid from the ODI side well before the 2011 World Cup allowed Gambhir and Kohli/Raina to settle in and play an important part in winning the 2011 World Cup. Australia have dropped Ponting because he does not fit into their 2015 World Cup plans. But Tendulkar can come in once or twice a year, play a handful of ODIs, go back to playing a full season of IPL and come back again so that decent performers in his absence can be bought a ticket home and watch him on TV.

[akshayxyz]

Dropping Ganguly and Dravid from the ODI side well before the 2011 World Cup allowed Gambhir and Kohli/Raina to settle in and play an important part in winning the 2011 World Cup. Australia have dropped Ponting because he does not fit into their 2015 World Cup plans. But Tendulkar can come in once or twice a year, play a handful of ODIs, go back to playing a full season of IPL and come back again so that decent performers in his absence can be bought a ticket home and watch him on TV.

Barring CB series ( so far), and except Kohli - many youngsters were tried, but no one looked good enough to replace SRT-ODI-part-timer.. I am with you on that whatever energy/passion is left in him, better not be wasted in IPL...in fact it will only help him, if his 'hunger' of cricket is directed towards ODI,tests...IPL can/should wait until his retirement.

[Raghav_12]

Dropping Ganguly and Dravid from the ODI side well before the 2011 World Cup allowed Gambhir and Kohli/Raina to settle in and play an important part in winning the 2011 World Cup. Australia have dropped Ponting because he does not fit into their 2015 World Cup plans. But Tendulkar can come in once or twice a year, play a handful of ODIs, go back to playing a full season of IPL and come back again so that decent performers in his absence can be bought a ticket home and watch him on TV.

These are your inferences. We keep trying new players all the time and some of them become established player and some of them not. If you look at the Ganguly and Dravid's retirement from team - I guess the player who found place in team was Rohit Sharma, who was nowhere to be seen in WC. The other player was Robin Utthapa. You don't start preparing team for WC 4 years ahead of time. International teams are selected on one basis that is pick your best available 11 players.

[Bumper]

Barring CB series ( so far), and except Kohli - many youngsters were tried, but no one looked good enough to replace SRT-ODI-part-timer.. I am with you on that whatever energy/passion is left in him, better not be wasted in IPL...in fact it will only help him, if his 'hunger' of cricket is directed towards ODI,tests...IPL can/should wait until his retirement.

That's hardly the point though. That argument is flawed on multiple counts: 1) SRT's form hardly inspires any optimism in the current series. If we are gonna fail we might as well fail with a Rohit Sharma. BTW, why was Rohit dropped yesterday ? 2) For tests, "SRT is a better bat than some of the youngsters & therefore deserves to continue" kinda argument makes sense. Even on that count, there is no evidence that Sachin is any better than a rookie on current form. But ODIs is all about world cup. People who are not in the reckoning for the next world cup, should make way. There are two relevant questions: 1) Why is SRT continuing to play ODIs ? I can't think of any logical reason other than that he wants to get his 100th ton in Australia. This to me is baloney sausage and sheer disrespect to the sport. Indian cricket is not his personal fiefdom, regardless of how much he has done for our cricket. 2) Why is SRT allowed to play ODIs when he is clearly not in the plan for the 2015 world cup ? That's our "SRT is a holy cow and he can do whatever he wants" mentality. This should change. Our players simply dont know how to go out respectfully. They leave such a bad taste in our mouth, you start wondering if they are the same guys who served us gloriously all these years.

[akshayxyz]

That's hardly the point though. That argument is flawed on multiple counts: 1) SRT's form hardly inspires any optimism in the current series. If we are gonna fail we might as well fail with a Rohit Sharma. BTW, why was Rohit dropped yesterday ? 2) For tests, "SRT is a better bat than some of the youngsters & therefore deserves to continue" kinda argument makes sense. Even on that count, there is no evidence that Sachin is any better than a rookie on current form. But ODIs is all about world cup. People who are not in the reckoning for the next world cup, should make way.

There are two relevant questions: 1) Why is SRT continuing to play ODIs ? I can't think of any logical reason other than that he wants to get his 100th ton in Australia. This to me is baloney sausage and sheer disrespect to the sport. Indian cricket is not his personal fiefdom, regardless of how much he has done for our cricket.

One of the keywords comes to my mind - - passion.. you would understand only if you have executed some passion over long term, at highest levels.. or have worked closely with someone such. "Playing ODIs just to get 100th ton" - He had a choice to not to skip WI tour, Eng ODIs, WI(in india) ODIs to achieve the 'selfish' milestone.... "Disrespect to sport" - Continuing to provide your services, and still giving 100% commitment and dedication in nets, field. How is it disrespect to the sport?

2) Why is SRT allowed to play ODIs when he is clearly not in the plan for the 2015 world cup ? That's our "SRT is a holy cow and he can do whatever he wants" mentality. This should change.

I am all for planning for 2015 WC - but not at the cost of series at the hand. Besides, how can you assume that having some seniors around in ODI dressing room is not part of the plan? Even for 2011 WC, the actual preparation/planning started about 1.5 years before. 3 years is way too much time to start being finicky about minute details towards WC2015. Take one series at a time until mid-late 2013, before start worrying about 2015 WC.

Our players simply dont know how to go out respectfully. They leave such a bad taste in our mouth, you start wondering if he is the same guy who served us gloriously for all these years.

Criticize as much you wish on technical aspects, but resorting to extremist remarks like - bringing disrespect to the game - sound so childish and in poor taste.

[Khalpat]

Here is one thing, Sachin like others was one of the main reason of our success in WC he played brilliant innings against Eng, SA, Aus in QF, Pak in SF. Before WC he has played in S. Africa and made 142 and 14* (90 balls)in Capetown and saved the match. I am talking about 2011 only not talking about his previous legacy, forget that. Now just like other human beings after WC which happened in April 2011 he thought of giving a shot, since he was in such a brilliant form he wanted to continue but he also wanted to give youngsters chance so he didnt toured WI. The form of life in which he was he could have easily made century there. Then came England tour which was a collective failure of team and then thing started to get worse. He has only played one ODI series after WC that too is going on, Captain decided that there will be rotation of seniors, he bowed down to that decision. Believe me all gentleman here, if he thinks that he is not able to time the ball well or there is an age catching he would be the first person to come out and say , guys my time is up. Just have patience. He has given so many glorious moments to us, we just need to give him time and nice farewell.

[Raghav_12]

Here is one thing, Sachin like others was one of the main reason of our success in WC he played brilliant innings against Eng, SA, Aus in QF, Pak in SF. Before WC he has played in S. Africa and made 142 and 14* (90 balls)in Capetown and saved the match. I am talking about 2011 only not talking about his previous legacy, forget that. Now just like other human beings after WC which happened in April 2011 he thought of giving a shot, since he was in such a brilliant form he wanted to continue but he also wanted to give youngsters chance so he didnt toured WI. The form of life in which he was he could have easily made century there. Then came England tour which was a collective failure of team and then thing started to get worse. He has only played one ODI series after WC that too is going on, Captain decided that there will be rotation of seniors, he bowed down to that decision. Believe me all gentleman here, if he thinks that he is not able to time the ball well or there is an age catching he would be the first person to come out and say , guys my time is up. Just have patience. He has given so many glorious moments to us, we just need to give him time and nice farewell.

Well, he was going to be criticised either way. He skipped WI tour (in favour of youngsters so that they can have a go in relatively easier conditions) then people are after him telling he picks which series to play which not to based on his whims and fancies. If he had played WI tour, very same set of people would have told that he is playing not so important series just to inflate his numbers. That's problem of being SRT.