Who is the greatest Indian Cricketer ever.

[yoda]

For srt, he's been widely acknowledged as the best player of his generation.

In ODIs yes. In tests he isn't even the best player from his own country. RD has better average, has performed better in clutch and has been much more reliable that SRT, IMO.

[Lurker]

Lurks , The decades that have the lowest bowling avgs(of the top ten bowlers for that decade) are 1990 and 1950 (Both have almost same bowling avg of 23+ ) ... and in 1990 ONLY SRT avged more than 50 ... and was ahead by 5 points from the next guy IIRC. Iam ofcourse talking Test matches here ... but if you consider ODIs then even there SRT scores at almost a SR of 90 with a avg of ~ 50 WHILE OPENING. That is why he is in a different league ...

BB. I have no issues with Sachin of 1990s but we can not judge a batsman by one decade can we? Fans who have watched cricket in 90s know that he was accepted as the best, even by his competitors. But Sachin did not retire in 90's did he? Sachin is very much playing in 2007 and his legacy would be judged by the fact that he did play, and ended up screwing his record, past 2002. Kapil did the same, should have called it quits around 1990, give or take a few years. If people look at his stats and take pot shots they fail to realize the man's worth - something whats happening to Sachin today. A true sense of deja vu for Indian cricket fans. xxx

[Lurker]

Lurks , The decades that have the lowest bowling avgs(of the top ten bowlers for that decade) are 1990 and 1950 (Both have almost same bowling avg of 23+ ) ... and in 1990 ONLY SRT avged more than 50 ... and was ahead by 5 points from the next guy IIRC. Iam ofcourse talking Test matches here ... but if you consider ODIs then even there SRT scores at almost a SR of 90 with a avg of ~ 50 WHILE OPENING. That is why he is in a different league ...

BB. I have no issues with Sachin of 1990s but we can not judge a batsman by one decade can we? Fans who have watched cricket in 90s know that he was accepted as the best, even by his competitors. But Sachin did not retire in 90's? Sachin is very much playing in 2007 and his legacy would be judged by the fact that he did play, and ended up screwing his record, past 2002. Kapil did the same, should have called it quits around 1990, give or take a few years. If people look at his stats and take pot shots they fail to realize the man's worth - something whats happening to Sachin today. A true sense of deja vu for Indian cricket fans. xxx

[Ram]

You have a different way of looking at it and thats quite fine by me. This could also be a generational thing since I am guessing you never got a chance to see Kapil in full glory as I did.

I was about to say the same too. It is obvious there is a generational bias here. Its something that cant be helped.

As a bowler Kapil ranks easily as the greatest paceman we produced. If for a moment we think he was not the best of his time(as Sachin is) it should also be thought of as the sheer amount of competition back then. I mean how can you top Marshall and Hadlee?? Again I have seen them both and trust me if they played today their stats would be even better. Would Sachin be the numero one if he played in 80s? We dont know but I find it hard to beleive he would top Sunil Gavaskar or Viv Richards. The latter, in particular, would have been more than a handy match. I am not going over the top when I say that 80s cricket were pure gold and today's cricket somehow doesnt match up.

Lurks , dont you think you are being a little unfair in saying today's cricket doesnt match upto the standards of the 80's ? Wasnt there a thread earlier in which almost all of us seem to agree that the level and standard of the sport almost always goes up with time ? Kapil was never the best bowler or batsman of his generation. Sachin was , for 5-6 years in a row, the worlds best batsman

[Predator_05]

As a bowler Kapil ranks easily as the greatest paceman we produced.

Yeah, the same way Ganguly is the greatest Indian captain. That is not saying much. Does Kapil have any competition for greatest paceman in Indian history ? When you compare him with guys like Binny, Ghavri, Prasad, Prabhakar Agarkar, Zaheer, Pathan etc. of course he is going to come out on top. These are all sh*tty bowlers. His only competition is Srinath, another bowler who averaged 28. The question you should ask yourself is; would Kapil Dev be the greatest paceman ever produced when compared to other countries' all-time greats ? Would Kapil count as one fo the greatest Australian bwolers ever when compared to McGrath and Lillee ? Would Kapil count as one of the greatest West Indian bwolers when compared to Ambrose, Marshall, Holding, et al ? Would he count as one of the greatest Pakistani bowlers when compared to Imran, Wasim, and Waqar ? You can use the same question when evaluating Tendulkar and he would make most countries' all-time XI without a shadow of a doubt.

[Guest BossBhai]

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[Ram]

Yeah, the same way Ganguly is the greatest Indian captain. That is not saying much. Does Kapil have any competition for greatest paceman in Indian history ? When you compare him with guys like Binny, Ghavri, Prasad, Prabhakar Agarkar, Zaheer, Pathan etc. of course he is going to come out on top. These are all sh*tty bowlers. His only competition is Srinath, another bowler who averaged 28. The question you should ask yourself is; would Kapil Dev be the greatest paceman ever produced when compared to other countries' all-time greats ? Would Kapil count as one fo the greatest Australian bwolers ever when compared to McGrath and Lillee ? Would Kapil count as one of the greatest West Indian bwolers when compared to Ambrose, Marshall, Holding, et al ? Would he count as one of the greatest Pakistani bowlers when compared to Imran, Wasim, and Waqar ? You can use the same question when evaluating Tendulkar and he would make most countries' all-time XI without a shadow of a doubt.

Excellent post !

[Lurker]

Lurks , dont you think you are being a little unfair in saying today's cricket doesnt match upto the standards of the 80's ? Wasnt there a thread earlier in which almost all of us seem to agree that the level and standard of the sport almost always goes up with time ?

Well Sriram that is hard to answer now, is it not. I mean comparison of eras never gives a straight answer. What you can certainly do is compare players of the era and see how good the cricket was then. Here take a look at the team of the time(late 70s early 80s): 1) Australia: Lillee, Thomson, Chappell brothers, Marsh, Boder etc 2) West Indies: Lloyd, Richards, Roberts, Marshall, Holding, Garner, Greenidge, Haynes, Dujon etc etc etc. 3) Pakistan: Miandad, Zaheer Abbas, Imran Khan, Asif Iqbal, Majid Khan, Wasim Raja etc etc. 4) India: Sunny, Kapil, Amarnath, Vishy, Vengsarkar, spinners(retired in late 70s). 5) England : Botham, Bob Willis, Geoff Boycott, David Gower, Alan Lamb etc etc. I mean you compare the teams and every team looks strong. Every team had 3-4 players, if not more, than would walk in their all-time greatest team. On the other hand today it is not exactly that, is it?

Kapil was never the best bowler or batsman of his generation. Sachin was , for 5-6 years in a row, the worlds best batsman

Well thats because Kapil was an all-rounder right? I mean do people question how good a bowler Sobers was? Or was Botham all time greatest pacer? No. Hadlee was the greatest bowler, alongside Marshall of his time. But his batting was hardly in the same grade as Kapil. Similarly Kapil was a better batsman but his bowling was not the greatest of his time. xxx

[koolkushie]

one thing in favor of kapil is that he won the world cup for india in 83... but if you look at individual achievements, perhaps there is no comparison to sachin tendulkar.. not only is sachin the greatest indian cricketer ever, but he is one of the best ever.. in the world.. now this is just my opinion.. and am not a big fan of sachin anymore, because his batting has deteriorated over the past few years.. but lets not forget that he is the King in this modern era of cricket..

[Ram]

Well Sriram that is hard to answer now, is it not. I mean comparison of eras never gives a straight answer. What you can certainly do is compare players of the era and see how good the cricket was then. Here take a look at the team of the time(late 70s early 80s): 1) Australia: Lillee, Thomson, Chappell brothers, Marsh, Boder etc 2) West Indies: Lloyd, Richards, Roberts, Marshall, Holding, Garner, Greenidge, Haynes, Dujon etc etc etc. 3) Pakistan: Miandad, Zaheer Abbas, Imran Khan, Asif Iqbal, Majid Khan, Wasim Raja etc etc. 4) India: Sunny, Kapil, Amarnath, Vishy, Vengsarkar, spinners(retired in late 70s). 5) England : Botham, Bob Willis, Geoff Boycott, David Gower, Alan Lamb etc etc. I mean you compare the teams and every team looks strong. Every team had 3-4 players, if not more, than would walk in their all-time greatest team. On the other hand today it is not exactly that, is it? '

Lurks , you have listed a lot of names of people who did outstandingly well then , but my question is - Would they have had the same kind of success , had they played now? which is the essential point isnt it ? the best way to sort it out is by comparing both Sachin's and Kapil's record against the same player in the same form. Alas , that is not possible. However , it is almost a guarantee that competitive nature and quality of any sport goes up with time.

Well thats because Kapil was an all-rounder right? I mean do people question how good a bowler Sobers was? Or was Botham all time greatest pacer? No. Hadlee was the greatest bowler, alongside Marshall of his time. But his batting was hardly in the same grade as Kapil. Similarly Kapil was a better batsman but his bowling was not the greatest of his time. xxx

Ok , let me put it this way.Kapil wasnt even the best all-rounder of his generation with both Botham and Imran claiming the honors. So , there goes your argument trying to defend Kapil coz he was an all-rounder

[Lurker]

Lurks ' date=' you have listed a lot of names of people who did outstandingly well then , but my question is -[b'] Would they have had the same kind of success , had they played now? which is the essential point isnt it ? the best way to sort it out is by comparing both Sachin's and Kapil's record against the same player in the same form. Alas , that is not possible.

Okay tell me which of these players performance do you think would have suffered in today's era - Sunil Gavaskar, Viv Richards, Alan Border, Imran Khan, Malcolm Marshall, Richard Hadlee, Dennis Lilee, Javed Miandad, Ian Botham, Kapil Dev, Michael Holding, Joel Garner. There I gave you 11 names of the time. Tell me which of these do you think was not good enough to be successful today. Let me tell you beforehand what I think - All of these players would have BETTER record today. The batsmen for sure. The bowlers as well. Look at that bowling list and tell me which of the mentioned bowlers would be worse than - Ntini,Pollock, Hoggard - 3 of your highest ranked pace bowlers today(as per ICC ranking)

Ok , let me put it this way.Kapil wasnt even the best all-rounder of his generation with both Botham and Imran claiming the honors. So , there goes your argument trying to defend Kapil coz he was an all-rounder

Sriram you will have to pardon me on this one simply because I have done this all-rounder comparison exercise 200 times. Here is a quick tip though. Imran was NOT an all-rounder of his time. Okay hear me out here. Imran's stats for the first 65-70 tests are those for a great bowler and for the latter 30 odd tests as batsman. He did NOT fire as both batsman and bowler together. In the end he did end up with great stats but having seen him in action I dont rate him ahead of Kapil. Also Botham was the best batsman of the lot but worst bowler. Between him and Kapil again I go with Kapil cos he was a better bowler and as good a batsman if not better. xxx

[Predator_05]

Sriram you will have to pardon me on this one simply because I have done this all-rounder comparison exercise 200 times. Here is a quick tip though. Imran was NOT an all-rounder of his time. Okay hear me out here. Imran's stats for the first 65-70 tests are those for a great bowler and for the latter 30 odd tests as batsman. He did NOT fire as both batsman and bowler together. In the end he did end up with great stats but having seen him in action I dont rate him ahead of Kapil. Also Botham was the best batsman of the lot but worst bowler. Between him and Kapil again I go with Kapil cos he was a better bowler and as good a batsman if not better. xxx

We have heard this before, yaar. Simple question - is Kapil rated as the greatest all-rounder of his generation or not ? Is he rated better than Imran or Botham in the same way Tendulkar is rated as the greatest batsman of his generation ?

[Gambit]

Hard to look past a man who won us the world cup and someone who was probably the only genuine fast bowling all rounder(discounting MP) we had. My order of greatest Indian cricketers would be: Kapil SMG Rahul Dravid/Anil Kumble Sachin Tendulkar

[King Tendulkar]

Sachin

[Lurker]

Simple question - is Kapil rated as the greatest all-rounder of his generation or not ? Is he rated better than Imran or Botham in the same way Tendulkar is rated as the greatest batsman of his generation ?

Well if you are asking me then I would say sure Kapil is rated as the greatest all-rounder of his generation. But I am sure you wont buy it. You would go by experts and experts would perhaps rate someone else ahead of Kapil. That is fine with me because I am the first one to accept that Kapil's record took a big hit due to his performance after knee surgery. If you take Kapil's record from his debut to say 1987(before knee surgery) is the best of the lot. Plus he had also been a WC successful captain. His last few years put his stats in bad shape. Same with Sachin. His best years are behind him. And if he continues like this for another year or two he would face the same problem. He already is. In late 90s it was Universal that Sachin is the best, Lara was mercurial but not in the same league. Today a lot, if not most, agree that Lara is/was better? Why? Because of the last few years. xxx

[Gambit]

one thing in favor of kapil is that he won the world cup for india in 83... but if you look at individual achievements, perhaps there is no comparison to sachin tendulkar.. not only is sachin the greatest indian cricketer ever, but he is one of the best ever.. in the world.. now this is just my opinion.. and am not a big fan of sachin anymore, because his batting has deteriorated over the past few years.. but lets not forget that he is the King in this modern era of cricket..

Welcome to ICF koolkushie!

[Ram]

Okay tell me which of these players performance do you think would have suffered in today's era - Sunil Gavaskar, Viv Richards, Alan Border, Imran Khan, Malcolm Marshall, Richard Hadlee, Dennis Lilee, Javed Miandad, Ian Botham, Kapil Dev, Michael Holding, Joel Garner. There I gave you 11 names of the time. Tell me which of these do you think was not good enough to be successful today.

Dont you realize you have given me an almost important task to do ? Trying to figure out how these players would have done is in simple words " namumkin". I bought out the point because you seem to suggest that , somehow , cricket played in the 80's was better than it is now and hence , Kapil's record should be given more weightage. I didnt agree with that , and i think so will most.

Let me tell you beforehand what I think - All of these players would have BETTER record today. The batsmen for sure. The bowlers as well. Look at that bowling list and tell me which of the mentioned bowlers would be worse than - Ntini,Pollock, Hoggard - 3 of your highest ranked pace bowlers today(as per ICC ranking)

That is pure speculation. I say the batsman of that era were not used to some quick bowling , floundered regularly against the Windies pacers and hence gave them the inflated stats that make them look so good.

Sriram you will have to pardon me on this one simply because I have done this all-rounder comparison exercise 200 times. Here is a quick tip though. Imran was NOT an all-rounder of his time. Okay hear me out here. Imran's stats for the first 65-70 tests are those for a great bowler and for the latter 30 odd tests as batsman. He did NOT fire as both batsman and bowler together. In the end he did end up with great stats but having seen him in action I dont rate him ahead of Kapil. Also Botham was the best batsman of the lot but worst bowler. Between him and Kapil again I go with Kapil cos he was a better bowler and as good a batsman if not better. xxx

Its not about the stats i am talking about here Lurks. Come to think of it , if we go the stat route , Sachin would win this hands down. Purely interms of talent , I have seen many past greats rate Imran ahead of Kapil. Kapil is always the last in the list of best all-rounders of the 80's , whenever that topic comes for discussion. You rate him ahead of all , maybe because of personal bias. The experts dont seem to think so. And to Botham was the worst bowlers seems a little out of place. Even with his total lack of form towards the end , Botham stil has a comparitively better record than Kapil.

[Guest BossBhai]

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[Lurker]

Dont you realize you have given me an almost important task to do ? Trying to figure out how these players would have done is in simple words " namumkin". I bought out the point because you seem to suggest that , somehow , cricket played in the 80's was better than it is now and hence , Kapil's record should be given more weightage. I didnt agree with that , and i think so will most.

No I don't think I have given you an impossible task at all. I think I have supplied you with a list of players that are all-time greats. Every great batsman of our generation - Sachin, Ponting, KP - is compared to one batsman - Viv Richards. Every technically correct batsman of our times - Dravid etc - is compared against Sunil or Boycott. Every fast bowler of our times - Akhtar, Lee, Bond - are compared against Marshall, Holding, Roberts. You hear them everyday, on radio, in media and you also hear how an Akhtar is not a patch on a Marshall, a Ponting is not as good as Richards etc etc.

That is pure speculation. I say the batsman of that era were not used to some quick bowling , floundered regularly against the Windies pacers and hence gave them the inflated stats that make them look so good.

Okay if that being the case then Sunil Gavaskar should be ranked ahead of any Indian batsman, agreed? Check his stats against West Indies. Also check Alan Border's stats against West Indies. Since we can not compare Viv Richards stats against West Indies, check his against the next best teams - Australia, England and Pakistan. Same with bowlers. If West Indies bowlers were greats how do you explain a Richard Hadlee? A Dennis Lillee(who incidentally is picked ahead of Mcgrath ,the greatest pace bowler of this time, by all Aussie pundits) etc etc.

Purely interms of talent , I have seen many past greats rate Imran ahead of Kapil. Kapil is always the last in the list of best all-rounders of the 80's , whenever that topic comes for discussion. You rate him ahead of all , maybe because of personal bias. The experts dont seem to think so.

You may have seen them rate others ahead of Kapil. But have you ever saw a few series, game of Kapil?? Here is what I would advice. Check the International games of 1985 WSC or Asia Cup or 1992 World Cup. You would easily see them online(Youtube, and some right here on ICF). See both Kapil and Imran in action and then tell me who was more talented. No stats, no expert opinion, just watch the game and tell me later on. :wink_smile:

And to Botham was the worst bowlers seems a little out of place. Even with his total lack of form towards the end , Botham stil has a comparitively better record than Kapil.

Because all you did was go to CI and check his stats. I am sure you didnt see him bowl. I wouldnt berate Botham, I really liked the way he played but if you read more about him you will find how his wickets came.

[Ram]

No I don't think I have given you an impossible task at all. I think I have supplied you with a list of players that are all-time greats. Every great batsman of our generation - Sachin, Ponting, KP - is compared to one batsman - Viv Richards. Every technically correct batsman of our times - Dravid etc - is compared against Sunil or Boycott. Every fast bowler of our times - Akhtar, Lee, Bond - are compared against Marshall, Holding, Roberts. You hear them everyday, on radio, in media and you also hear how an Akhtar is not a patch on a Marshall, a Ponting is not as good as Richards etc etc.

That is precisely the point i am trying to make . I say , a Lee or an Akhtar or a Bond would be doubly effective against the batsman of an earlier era since they were not used to genuine quick bowling. So does that now make Sachin's record against these players even more creditworthy ? looks like we are going in a circle with this point. So , lets drop this point alone , if you agree.

Okay if that being the case then Sunil Gavaskar should be ranked ahead of any Indian batsman, agreed? Check his stats against West Indies. Also check Alan Border's stats against West Indies. Since we can not compare Viv Richards stats against West Indies, check his against the next best teams - Australia, England and Pakistan. Same with bowlers. If West Indies bowlers were greats how do you explain a Richard Hadlee? A Dennis Lillee(who incidentally is picked ahead of Mcgrath ,the greatest pace bowler of this time, by all Aussie pundits) etc etc.

I have already mentioned that i would view with a pinch of salt , the records of these fast bowlers. The pitches have gotten flatter these days , batsman is more used to faster bowling and a variety of other reasons to make me think along those lines.

You may have seen them rate others ahead of Kapil. But have you ever saw a few series, game of Kapil?? Here is what I would advice. Check the International games of 1985 WSC or Asia Cup or 1992 World Cup. You would easily see them online(Youtube, and some right here on ICF). See both Kapil and Imran in action and then tell me who was more talented. No stats, no expert opinion, just watch the game and tell me later on. :wink_smile:

I have seen videos yes , of Kapil , Botham and Imran. I definitely think Imran and Botham were better bowlers than Kapil , with Kapil being the better batsman of the group. I am pretty sure you wouldnt agree with my assessment.

Because all you did was go to CI and check his stats. I am sure you didnt see him bowl. I wouldnt berate Botham, I really liked the way he played but if you read more about him you will find how his wickets came.

Am surprised you dont rate a player who was once considered the most talented and outstanding player of his time. Surprise !