Mohnish Parmar: Hung out by BCCI to dry

[CG]

I do not agree that we should allow chuckers as it will create a whole lot of problems,With muruli action i have turned the ball a mile and in our matches some of opp guys copy his action and its damn hard to face them with out using your feet.Ajmal teesra and doosra should be banned.

[jairamesh]

I do not agree that we should allow chuckers as it will create a whole lot of problems' date='With muruli action i have turned the ball a mile and in our matches some of opp guys copy his action and its damn hard to face them with out using your feet.Ajmal teesra and doosra should be banned.[/quote'] Well, that's the point everyone is trying to make, but Ajmal continues his merry way. He is chucking his way to wickets, whilst the rest stand idle trying to hold the morale/ethical/sportsmanship ground. Ajmal is not going to get banned, then why has BCCI held Parmar back!? It's as easy as looking at "one set of rules for one bowler and another set of rules for the other". When the English commies/Coaches were complaining about Ajaml's action, I sympathized with them.

[Crookbond]

I have just one problem with this "allowance of chucker" theory. What if, GOD (not Sachin) forbid, the ICC amends the 15 degree rule after Ajmal retires? Do we sacrifice our "chucker" due to the ICC whims and fancy dance? I'm not too sure.

[rkt.india]

I do not agree that we should allow chuckers as it will create a whole lot of problems' date='With muruli action i have turned the ball a mile and in our matches some of opp guys copy his action and its damn hard to face them with out using your feet.Ajmal teesra and doosra should be banned.[/quote'] Don't agree. I think we should give some leeway to spinners, otherwise game will become all one sided favoring batsmen from every corner and we wont see any contest between bat and ball. Already batsman can read and know spinners variations through video footage. Already flat pitches sucking everything out of the bowlers and even if there are some turning tracks, ICC is quick to warn them.

[rkt.india]

I have just one problem with this "allowance of chucker" theory. What if' date=' GOD (not Sachin) forbid, the ICC amends the 15 degree rule after Ajmal retires? Do we sacrifice our "chucker" due to the ICC whims and fancy dance? I'm not too sure.[/quote'] This rule was made for Murli eventually and Murli gone and then came Ajmal, so there will be consistent supply of bowlers like these in every country, but in India, these bowlers are banned and no bowled by umpires even at age cricket even if one bowler is not going over 15 degree. Anyway, an umpire cannot exactly tell if a bowler is going over 15 degrees, so how can an umpire call a bowler no ball and I saw Mohnish Parmar in U19 WC held in Srilanka in 2006 where his doosra was difficult to read but it was clearly as big a chuck as is done by Ajmal, but one cant say he was going over 15 degree by naked eyes, and his off spinner was not chuck at all even then.

[Crookbond]

This rule was made for Murli eventually and Murli gone and then came Ajmal' date=' so there will be consistent supply of bowlers like these in every country, but in India, these bowlers are banned and no bowled by umpires even at age cricket even if one bowler is not going over 15 degree. Anyway, an umpire cannot exactly tell if a bowler is going over 15 degrees, so how can an umpire call a bowler no ball and I saw Mohnish Parmar in U19 WC held in Srilanka in 2006 where his doosra was difficult to read but it was clearly as big a chuck as is done by Ajmal, but one cant say he was going over 15 degree by naked eyes, and his off spinner was not chuck at all even then.[/quote'] The rule was made in 2004 and not for Murali. The elbow bend can be an illusion to the naked eye. Only scientific testing can prove otherwise. http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/525937.html Anyways, it still doesn't answer the question - "What if ICC does a U-turn on the 15-degree rule?"

[rkt.india]

The rule was made in 2004 and not for Murali. The elbow bend can be an illusion to the naked eye. Only scientific testing can prove otherwise. http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/525937.html Anyways, it still doesn't answer the question - "What if ICC does a U-turn on the 15-degree rule?"

But that rule was made to support Murli, otherwise what was the reason to make a rule of that kind. Your question is far fetched. ICC only increased the limitation to 15 degree which was 5 degree before. ICC had done a study in 2001 in ICC trophy in Kenya and according to that study most bowlers apart from Ramnaresh Sarwan had bent in their arms. Even likes of McGrath had 10 degrees bent. They did the same study on old bowlers through videos and they found that most bowlers had elbow bent of some degree. That story was on cricinfo as well. This rule has very bleak possibilities to be overruled.

[Crookbond]

But that rule was made to support Murli, otherwise what was the reason to make a rule of that kind.

Your this part contradicts with the later part of the post! One place you say it was for Murali-support and other place you say everyone does it?

Your question is far fetched. ICC only increased the limitation to 15 degree which was 5 degree before. ICC had done a study in 2001 in ICC trophy in Kenya and according to that study most bowlers apart from Ramnaresh Sarwan had bent in their arms. Even likes of McGrath had 10 degrees bent. They did the same study on old bowlers through videos and they found that most bowlers had elbow bent of some degree. That story was on cricinfo as well. This rule has very bleak possibilities to be overruled.

After a long time we realize, using bio-mechanical tests, that naked eye calls were an illusion. How about we have "advanced" tests which disprove this fact? It's definitely a possibility, so my question is very much valid, IMHO.

[jairamesh]

The rule was made in 2004 and not for Murali. The elbow bend can be an illusion to the naked eye. Only scientific testing can prove otherwise. http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/525937.html Anyways, it still doesn't answer the question - "What if ICC does a U-turn on the 15-degree rule?"

Are our pace bowlers utilizing this? We already had Amit Singh and Kamran Khan banned during the IPL without proof on how much they flexed. Also how many must have got stopped through junior, club, academies and first class set-ups by umpires without a proper biomechanical test? Can't help but think the likes of Brett Lee, Tait, Akthar, or Malinga would never make it through an India cricket set-up from youth to first class because at some stage they will be banned for chucking.

[rkt.india]

Your this part contradicts with the later part of the post! One place you say it was for Murali-support and other place you say everyone does it?

Do you think people believe in that study that was done by ICC? No. Most people think it was just a made up report done to increase the limit from 5 degrees to 15 degrees for Murli's cause. It was a futile exercise. I did not say that everyone does it. It was said in ICC report.

After a long time we realize, using bio-mechanical tests, that naked eye calls were an illusion. How about we have "advanced" tests which disprove this fact? It's definitely a possibility, so my question is very much valid, IMHO.

I don't trust any biomechanical test done in lab under specialist supervision. One does not bowl in matches and is always aware of not bending his arm too much in those tests. When one watch match videos in slow motion then it is quite obvious how much Murli used to bend his elbow and same is about Ajmal. He also wears a full sleeve to hide that to make it look less obvious. There is no illusion in slow motion. Why only these two look that blatant?

[rkt.india]

Are our pace bowlers utilizing this? We already had Amit Singh and Kamran Khan banned during the IPL without proof on how much they flexed. Also how many must have got stopped through junior, club, academies and first class set-ups by umpires without a proper biomechanical test? Can't help but think the likes of Brett Lee, Tait, Akthar, or Malinga would never make it through an India cricket set-up from youth to first class because at some stage they will be banned for chucking.

This.

[bajrang]

No it's not! Just read up more. Let me say this again - medical or no medical condition, a bowler can bend ONLY till 15 degree. Clear?

say it as many times as you want , u will still sound stupid. here what David Richardson, the ICC's general manager has to say

"There is nothing preventing a bowler bowling with a bent arm, provided he does not straighten it beyond the permitted degrees of tolerance."

the 15 degree rule applies to straitening the arm, i can bowl with 45 degree bend in arm if i want to given i dont go past 30-60 degree range at the time of release. http://www.espncricinfo.com/pakistan-v-england-2012/content/story/552462.html ajmals arm starts at 23.5 degree. http://www.espncricinfo.com/pakistan-v-england-2012/content/story/552579.html Clear??! :hysterical:

[Old guy]

say it as many times as you want , u will still sound stupid. here what David Richardson, the ICC's general manager has to say the 15 degree rule applies to straitening the arm, i can bowl with 45 degree bend in arm if i want to given i dont go past 30-60 degree range at the time of release. http://www.espncricinfo.com/pakistan-v-england-2012/content/story/552462.html ajmals arm starts at 23.5 degree. http://www.espncricinfo.com/pakistan-v-england-2012/content/story/552579.html Clear??! :hysterical:

this.. thing is ajmal when bowls does not straightens his arm it starts at 23 degree and stays within limit so in still pictures it looks bad.. but check him at point of release it will still be little bent (atleast thats the supposed reason why he is allowed to bowl)

[rkt.india]

this.. thing is ajmal when bowls does not straightens his arm it starts at 23 degree and stays within limit so in still pictures it looks bad.. but check him at point of release it will still be little bent (atleast thats the supposed reason why he is allowed to bowl)

Sab bakwas hai. It is not practically possible to bowl with so much bent arm and does not straighten it. It looks good to read but think logically and try to imply it in practical. I daily try to bowl like him, but is not possible to not straighten the elbow.

[Old guy]

Sab bakwas hai. It is not practically possible to bowl with so much bent arm and does not straighten it. It looks good to read but think logically and try to imply it in practical. I daily try to bowl like him' date=' but is not possible to not straighten the elbow.[/quote'] lol.according to him he has some problem in arm .. just like murli did :winky: thats why can can even bowl with bent arm

[rkt.india]

lol.according to him he has some problem in arm .. just like murli did :winky: thats why can can even bowl with bent arm

Yes. He may have some problem in his arm and can bowl with bent arm but not straightening it just rubbish. If he and Murli didnt, then I do not think any spinner should be called for chucking.

[jairamesh]

say it as many times as you want , u will still sound stupid. here what David Richardson, the ICC's general manager has to say the 15 degree rule applies to straitening the arm, i can bowl with 45 degree bend in arm if i want to given i dont go past 30-60 degree range at the time of release. http://www.espncricinfo.com/pakistan-v-england-2012/content/story/552462.html ajmals arm starts at 23.5 degree. http://www.espncricinfo.com/pakistan-v-england-2012/content/story/552579.html Clear??! :hysterical:

You tell me from the videos that he is not completely straightening his arm? There is good reason to where long sleeves, and umpires can't keep track of every single action and how would they measure how much they straightened anyways. These players have been taking liberty of lack of technology to monitor there every action, and thumbs up to them for exploiting it. Murli laughed all the way to 800 wickets, whilst Ajmal has became just as lethal as Murli if not more. vsRpH5T73Hk&start=65 9Sbe975rpKU&start=72

[rkt.india]

:hysterical:

[Crookbond]

Do you think people believe in that study that was done by ICC? No. Most people think it was just a made up report done to increase the limit from 5 degrees to 15 degrees for Murli's cause. It was a futile exercise. I did not say that everyone does it. It was said in ICC report.

I'm not sure I'm getting your point here. The report says other bowlers too bent their arms way beyond 10 degrees according to bio-mechanical tests. It's a study done and the only way to disprove it is to do a counter-study. Beliefs are good but not when science into picture.

I don't trust any biomechanical test done in lab under specialist supervision. One does not bowl in matches and is always aware of not bending his arm too much in those tests. When one watch match videos in slow motion then it is quite obvious how much Murli used to bend his elbow and same is about Ajmal. He also wears a full sleeve to hide that to make it look less obvious. There is no illusion in slow motion. Why only these two look that blatant?

You may be right on the bio-mechanical tests conducted under lab supervision. I'm sure one day we will have technology to test it in real match conditions. But, lets not comment without knowing the procedure of these bio-mechanical tests. It's the best we can do and we should accept it. Ajmal wearing a full-sleeve to hide his bent in the arm sounds like a conspiracy theory. The reason the illusion exists is due to a natural bent in their arm. Slow motions don't hide illusions! -GrOLdi5s0M

[Crookbond]

say it as many times as you want , u will still sound stupid.

Lets stay clear of personal remarks. You may be at the receiving end. I will ignore this as of now.

here what David Richardson, the ICC's general manager has to say the 15 degree rule applies to straitening the arm, i can bowl with 45 degree bend in arm if i want to given i dont go past 30-60 degree range at the time of release. http://www.espncricinfo.com/pakistan-v-england-2012/content/story/552462.html ajmals arm starts at 23.5 degree. http://www.espncricinfo.com/pakistan-v-england-2012/content/story/552579.html Clear??! :hysterical:

You can be called a 'chucker' if you bent your elbow 15 degrees while bowl. Ajmal and all international bowlers are within the 15 degree limit. If not, they wouldn't be allowed to bowl. This 15 degree bowling limit is a HARD RULE, irrespective whether you have a bent arm or bent elbow. You can't "bowl" with a 60 degree arm, you can "start" with a 60 degree arm. While bowling, you should bowl with a 15 degree arm limit PERIOD. In technical terms, it's the degree of "elbow extension" which matters when you bowl not the degree of "elbow abduction". The degree of "elbow abduction" for Ajmal is 25 degrees, there's no limit on it. The degree of "elbow extension" is limited to 15 degrees. No international bowler, in the current format, can bend beyond it. Simple. Ajmal's "elbow extension" is within 15 degrees and hence he's allowed to bowl.