Dhoni vs Bevan

[Marut]

whats your point ? he is not the worst player also' date=' he manages ok, and is brilliant in conditions that do not aid lateral movement. So he is better than bevan.[/quote'] It was just a reply to "Nobody in the worls is absolutely brilliant against the moving ball...". I did say that Dhoni is better than Bevan.

[CG]

BS. standards were lower.

Prove it.Hint-even if you have not watched cricket in 1990s just search for the no of bowlers with average less than 30 and how many played in australian domestic cricket.

[thongale]

Prove it.Hint-even if you have not watched cricket in 1990s just search for the no of bowlers with average less than 30 and how many played in australian domestic cricket.

I have watched cricket of both 90s and 00s. And without limiting to Aussie domestic circuit, shall we see how many international bowlers did average less than 30? The late 90s were the golden age of ODI cricket. It's simple. The stupid ball changes all came in 00s. 90s was the era of reverse swing. If you cannot bowl it, you get hammered, if you don't know how to play it, you are doomed. Wasim and Waqar were magical. But guys like Crowe, de Silva, Jones did exactly knew how to target them too. Now reverse swing is a dying art in ODIs.

[thongale]

This will not give the complete picture about bowling in 80s, 90s and 00s. But food for thought. 1 940 J. Garner WI 940 v New Zealand, 17/04/1985 2 923 R.J. Hadlee NZ 923 v Sri Lanka, 18/06/1983 3 917 S.M. Pollock SA 917 v Pakistan, 14/02/2007 4 913 M. Muralidaran SL 913 v New Zealand, 09/04/2002 5 903 G.D. McGrath AUS 903 v South Africa, 30/03/2002 6 892 E.J. Chatfield NZ 892 v Sri Lanka, 04/11/1984 7 891 D.K. Lillee AUS 891 v New Zealand, 20/02/1982 7 891 M.D. Marshall WI 891 v Australia, 27/01/1985 9 877 C.E.L. Ambrose WI 877 v England, 25/05/1991 10 875 M.A. Holding WI 875 v Pakistan, 02/12/1985 11 867 R.G.D. Willis ENG 867 v Sri Lanka, 20/06/1983 12 860 W.P.U.J.C. Vaas SL 860 v South Africa, 20/08/2004 13 852 B. Lee AUS 852 v South Africa, 03/02/2006 14 851 Maninder Singh IND 851 v West Indies, 02/01/1988 15 850 Wasim Akram PAK 850 v South Africa, 16/10/1994 16 848 A.M.E. Roberts WI 848 v India, 13/10/1983 17 845 Kapil Dev IND 845 v New Zealand, 10/04/1986 18 841 G.F. Lawson AUS 841 v West Indies, 14/03/1984 19 823 J.N. Gillespie AUS 823 v Pakistan, 04/09/2004 20 814 P.R. Reiffel AUS 814 v West Indies, 01/01/1996 Only 5 odd performances after 2005. Majority are in 1990-2005 era. And nearly half of the ODIs have been played after 2005 as well.

[Sehwag1830]

@Thongale: How many Great ODI batsman debuted 2000 ? Only 4 : Dhoni, Hussey, Deviliers, Amla and you can add Kohli if you want. Fact is there have been few great test as well as ODI players in last decade or so.

[thongale]

@Thongale: How many Great ODI batsman debuted 2000 ? Only 4 : Dhoni, Hussey, Deviliers, Amla and you can add Kohli if you want. Fact is there have been few great test as well as ODI players in last decade or so.

I am not clear on what you are stating. If you are trying to say that there were only few great ODI batsmen post 2000, it proves my point further. Even with lesser great bastsmen, the number of great oDI bowlers debuted post 2000 is less. That means 90s had better bowlers and better batsmen in ODIs!:--D I am not sure on what you have actually meant. Take care to elaborate.

[Yoda-esque]

Bevan is a world class finisher he has won many matches for Australia single handedly under different conditions.DHONI has a long way to go he has finished few matches for India for 2 years or so.He has done it many times for CSK but not for India

Cute post :icflove:

[Vilander]

This will not give the complete picture about bowling in 80s, 90s and 00s. But food for thought. 1 940 J. Garner WI 940 v New Zealand, 17/04/1985 2 923 R.J. Hadlee NZ 923 v Sri Lanka, 18/06/1983 3 917 S.M. Pollock SA 917 v Pakistan, 14/02/2007 4 913 M. Muralidaran SL 913 v New Zealand, 09/04/2002 5 903 G.D. McGrath AUS 903 v South Africa, 30/03/2002 6 892 E.J. Chatfield NZ 892 v Sri Lanka, 04/11/1984 7 891 D.K. Lillee AUS 891 v New Zealand, 20/02/1982 7 891 M.D. Marshall WI 891 v Australia, 27/01/1985 9 877 C.E.L. Ambrose WI 877 v England, 25/05/1991 10 875 M.A. Holding WI 875 v Pakistan, 02/12/1985 11 867 R.G.D. Willis ENG 867 v Sri Lanka, 20/06/1983 12 860 W.P.U.J.C. Vaas SL 860 v South Africa, 20/08/2004 13 852 B. Lee AUS 852 v South Africa, 03/02/2006 14 851 Maninder Singh IND 851 v West Indies, 02/01/1988 15 850 Wasim Akram PAK 850 v South Africa, 16/10/1994 16 848 A.M.E. Roberts WI 848 v India, 13/10/1983 17 845 Kapil Dev IND 845 v New Zealand, 10/04/1986 18 841 G.F. Lawson AUS 841 v West Indies, 14/03/1984 19 823 J.N. Gillespie AUS 823 v Pakistan, 04/09/2004 20 814 P.R. Reiffel AUS 814 v West Indies, 01/01/1996 Only 5 odd performances after 2005. Majority are in 1990-2005 era. And nearly half of the ODIs have been played after 2005 as well.

Thanks for stat mate. You have helped me explain the situation better, higher instance of statistical peaks or single instances of form in a player does not become an attribute its most certainly does not imply higher standards of the game. As a matter of fact, individual statistical peaks mean the standard is over all poor, wherein a poor player is available for scoring heavily against or getting out cheaply. When the overall standard is high the SD is lesser in player ratings, this explains the lack of peaks from players in 2000-2012 barring a few obvious freaks like Pollock,Mcgrath,Murali etc, implying had these fellows played in the good old days they would have been versions of Don Bradman in bowling.

[CG]

Thanks for stat mate. You have helped me explain the situation better, higher instance of statistical peaks or single instances of form in a player does not become an attribute its most certainly does not imply higher standards of the game. As a matter of fact, individual statistical peaks mean the standard is over all poor, wherein a poor player is available for scoring heavily against or getting out cheaply. When the overall standard is high the SD is lesser in player ratings, this explains the lack of peaks from players in 2000-2012 barring a few obvious freaks like Pollock,Mcgrath,Murali etc, implying had these fellows played in the good old days they would have been versions of Don Bradman in bowling.

:facepalm:

[Vilander]

:facepalm:

oh how rich you are a math illiterate.

[vvvslaxman]

This will not give the complete picture about bowling in 80s, 90s and 00s. But food for thought. 1 940 J. Garner WI 940 v New Zealand, 17/04/1985 2 923 R.J. Hadlee NZ 923 v Sri Lanka, 18/06/1983 3 917 S.M. Pollock SA 917 v Pakistan, 14/02/2007 4 913 M. Muralidaran SL 913 v New Zealand, 09/04/2002 5 903 G.D. McGrath AUS 903 v South Africa, 30/03/2002 6 892 E.J. Chatfield NZ 892 v Sri Lanka, 04/11/1984 7 891 D.K. Lillee AUS 891 v New Zealand, 20/02/1982 7 891 M.D. Marshall WI 891 v Australia, 27/01/1985 9 877 C.E.L. Ambrose WI 877 v England, 25/05/1991 10 875 M.A. Holding WI 875 v Pakistan, 02/12/1985 11 867 R.G.D. Willis ENG 867 v Sri Lanka, 20/06/1983 12 860 W.P.U.J.C. Vaas SL 860 v South Africa, 20/08/2004 13 852 B. Lee AUS 852 v South Africa, 03/02/2006 14 851 Maninder Singh IND 851 v West Indies, 02/01/1988 15 850 Wasim Akram PAK 850 v South Africa, 16/10/1994 16 848 A.M.E. Roberts WI 848 v India, 13/10/1983 17 845 Kapil Dev IND 845 v New Zealand, 10/04/1986 18 841 G.F. Lawson AUS 841 v West Indies, 14/03/1984 19 823 J.N. Gillespie AUS 823 v Pakistan, 04/09/2004 20 814 P.R. Reiffel AUS 814 v West Indies, 01/01/1996 Only 5 odd performances after 2005. Majority are in 1990-2005 era. And nearly half of the ODIs have been played after 2005 as well.

At the end of the day it still doesn't explain his poor strike rate. Even in that era there were so many who had better strike rates than Bevan. Yes Bevan was mentally strong and could keep his wicket and provide some good finishing to his side. But Jonty Rhoades during the same period when Bevan played had an average of 70 with a strike rate of 82 while chasing successfully.

[CG]

oh how rich you are a math illiterate.

:hysterical::hysterical: you bet.

[Vilander]

At the end of the day it still doesn't explain his poor strike rate. Even in that era there were so many who had better strike rates than Bevan. Yes Bevan was mentally strong and could keep his wicket and provide some good finishing to his side. But Jonty Rhoades during the same period when Bevan played had an average of 70 with a strike rate of 82 while chasing successfully.

older players have better rating peaks because overall standard of an average player was poor then, which is better now so no one single player gets big stat peaks like before, or at least not that often.

[CG]

older players have better rating peaks because overall standard of an average player was poor then' date=' which is better now so no one single player gets big stat peaks like before, or at least not that often.[/quote'] forget the ratings .if you watched cricket in 1990s just answer-was the bowling standards higher and pitches more conducive to spin and pace in respective countries or not.

[Vilander]

forget the ratings .if you watched cricket in 1990s just answer-was the bowling standards higher and pitches more conducive to spin and pace in respective countries or not.

Grounds had longer boundaries. But i am sure pitches were as bad or as good as now. But what i do remember is indian opener Cheeka going after a wide ball getting an out side edge for 4 then the next ball going for a wide ball getting an out side edge and dropped, then the next over going for an wide ball getting edge and getting caught, commentator calling him aggressive player. Nowadays he would be called tailender. Of-course its just one player but the drift is, although its more romantic to say the older era players were great they can never be emulated etc, it has to be kept in mind that they were great considering the time not great as in they would definitely do better now, most of them might but not all of them by default. peaks were more impressive since the surrounding mountains were largely hillocks.

[thongale]

Thanks for stat mate. You have helped me explain the situation better, higher instance of statistical peaks or single instances of form in a player does not become an attribute its most certainly does not imply higher standards of the game. As a matter of fact, individual statistical peaks mean the standard is over all poor, wherein a poor player is available for scoring heavily against or getting out cheaply. When the overall standard is high the SD is lesser in player ratings, this explains the lack of peaks from players in 2000-2012 barring a few obvious freaks like Pollock,Mcgrath,Murali etc, implying had these fellows played in the good old days they would have been versions of Don Bradman in bowling.

You may have apoint about pre 1990 performances, but post 1990 it was due to sheer brilliance of players. IIndividual statistical peaks mean that there have been more players who have been on blistering form in the past, and you had a higher chance of being rolled over when confronted with one, rather than playing steady performers. These statistical peaks are not one off performances, but a gradual accumulation of great performances. If you have a highest ever peaks some where, that means that player must have been ****ing awesome in some time of his life.

[thongale]

At the end of the day it still doesn't explain his poor strike rate. Even in that era there were so many who had better strike rates than Bevan. Yes Bevan was mentally strong and could keep his wicket and provide some good finishing to his side. But Jonty Rhoades during the same period when Bevan played had an average of 70 with a strike rate of 82 while chasing successfully.

Completely irrelevent point to the discussion. The discussion was on quality of cricket, whether it was same or not.

[Sehwag1830]

I think when we discuss about cricket in 1990s we must not forget half of the ODI at that time was played at Sharjah. And Sharjah was the toughest place to bat .

[Ultimate_Game]

I think when we discuss about cricket in 1990s we must not forget half of the ODI at that time was played at Sharjah. And Sharjah was the toughest place to bat .

:hysterical: Not sure whether you are serious :haha:

[Vilander]

You may have apoint about pre 1990 performances' date=' but post 1990 it was due to sheer brilliance of players. IIndividual statistical peaks mean that there have been more players who have been on blistering form in the past, and you had a higher chance of being rolled over when confronted with one, rather than playing steady performers. These statistical peaks are not one off performances, but a gradual accumulation of great performances. If you have a highest ever peaks some where, that means that player must have been ****ing awesome in some time of his life.[/quote'] well the actual boundary of such an event can not be drawn, we can argue each other to the ground. but the boundary could be as you say 1990 or as i say 2000. But my point is in former times peaks were more due to overall poor competition, in later times ( 2000 according to me 1990 according to you) it was due to freaks who exhibited immense skill in their art. I think we can agree to disagree.