Lurker Posted February 8, 2013 Posted February 8, 2013 Obscenities, as they say, are the last refuge of the inarticulate %$#*&^%$@*! I can't talk on behalf of others, but obscenities whether in movies or otherwise are a complete put off. And contrary to what you say, the continuous string of obscenities in the movie for almost everything- before a murder scene or even before something as menial as buying eggs makes the characters look larger than life and doesn't add any credibility to the plot. Or so I feel. I am sorry, is this a philosophical discussion now? I thought you were all about movie being a Director's medium? Are you now suddenly a linguistic Police here? And possibly social too. There is a serious contradiction in your assessment, if you have not noticed it already. Tapori Bambaiyya on the other has always been portrayed in a very alluring way in Bollywood. A movie character who speaks tapori will eventually endear himself to you. His mannerisms maybe crass, but he would come across as someone with a heart. The characters in GoW don't really have anything going on for them. Tapori Mumbaiya were not made by Anuragh Kashyap, or even Vishal Bhardwaj. They were made by different set of Directors. When Ram Gopal Verma made Satya he laced Tapori language with lot of humor that made people go - Ohhh did he really say that?? Movies like Parinda and Angaar which were set against underworld background leaned heavily on violence. Both Vidhu Vinod Chopra and Shashilal Nair, directors of the movie, are on record saying they had to make it ultra violent as they could not lean on the language. So thank god that censor today allows this. I also think Mumbai language is never going to be as flowery as rustic anyway. What are they gonna show? Dawood's wife runing after him like Sardar Khan's wife spouting a bunch of gallis? Not happening. I can see why you found Mumbai Tapori alluring. Possibly because they are NEVER like real life tapori. Meet a real life tapori and I will guarantee you his language will make you uncomfortable. Another grouse that I had with the movie is the absolute and wrong generalizations: Qureshi's are butchers? That is as random as saying all those with the surname Agarkar are trundlers. Generally speaking too, though I'm a total Bollywood girl, I've been less than happy with the caricature like portrayal of Muslims in Bollywood. Either Muslims are: the honest patriotic cop, a side kick introduced for comic relief, a youth gone astray into the paths of terror or the portrayal is like how it is in Wasseypur. Of all the things that's what ticked you off? lol. I dont know enough about Qureishis vs Khans. But I do know that it borrows heavily from real life. And when I saw the movie, and I bet this is true for most Hindi movie fans, the last thing on my mind was are Qureishies really all butchers or not. I don't think I'd ever hear a girl talk to her peer: O #$$%%&^ tune Sachin ke batting dekhi kal. South Africa ki use %&& $%#^%^%&. other girl: Woh sab bhool ja %$#^*%$, kal accounts ka exam hai. kuch padha hai tune? It is such shallow, pointless and altogether demeaning talk which only the male of the species are capable of. :P I never asked women should start saying that, or not. But if you cant change, why expect us to change? How does it make sense that you wont abuse, and by the same token we should stop as well? And what happens when you watch a Hollywood movie that uses the same words? Do you blip them or fast forward them? By the way whats with passing comments ranging from articulateness to deameaning of male gender based on abuse? That gali can open opened on both sides you know. :winky::winky:
Mariyam Posted February 10, 2013 Posted February 10, 2013 Lurker, We're talking apples and oranges here. What I listed above were the reasons *I* did not like Gangs of Wasseypur. Being any kind of a social/linguistic police was not the intention and I'm sorry if I came across that way. Having said that, I would definitely sympathize with a Munna of Rangeela or a Bunnu (Anil Kapoor) of Deewana Mastana. I surely wouldn't be moved by Sardar Khan or any other character in GoW. There is no way I can relate to them. And the witty Bollywood taporispeak definitely makes for much pleasant hearing that the stuff that one comes across in GoW. Whether or not the movie deserves to be sent to the Oscars, on rather what are the parameters based on which we decide if a movie is Oscar worthy or not & whether or not GoW is a realistic movie are different discussions altogether. We ( India/Bollywood/powers that be) have had a poor record of sending some absolutely shambolic movies to the Oscars, ahead of much more deserving ones. We've sent Paheli and Lagaan. :D As an aside, Lurks, I've traveled quite extensively in Western and Central UP. I've never come across anything remotely resembling what I've seen in GoW. And its the mannerisms that I'm talking about. The exaggerated and aggressive body language. Neither was the language that colourful. Of course, I am not saying that it doesn't exist, but to think that it would exist to a much larger degree in one locality of Dhanbad, and not in the rest of the North Indian plains would be a stretch. The only logical outcome is that the portrayal is highly fictional and exaggerated. Ditto with Omkara. Most of the Biharis I've come across all sing paeans about the Ganga Jamuna tehzeeb; Khusrao, Ramdhari Singh Dinkar and Mirza Raz. If anything, I would say that the average person from Bihar and maybe UP, is a lot more inclined towards literature and poetry in general than people from say Maharashtra or Gujarat. Especially more than those from the cities. Anyways, I digress.....
The Outsider Posted February 10, 2013 Posted February 10, 2013 As an aside, Lurks, I've traveled quite extensively in Western and Central UP. I've never come across anything remotely resembling what I've seen in GoW. And its the mannerisms that I'm talking about. The exaggerated and aggressive body language. Neither was the language that colourful. Of course, I am not saying that it doesn't exist, but to think that it would exist to a much larger degree in one locality of Dhanbad, and not in the rest of the North Indian plains would be a stretch. The only logical outcome is that the portrayal is highly fictional and exaggerated. Ditto with Omkara. Most of the Biharis I've come across all sing paeans about the Ganga Jamuna tehzeeb; Khusrao, Ramdhari Singh Dinkar and Mirza Raz. If anything, I would say that the average person from Bihar and maybe UP, is a lot more inclined towards literature and poetry in general than people from say Maharashtra or Gujarat. Especially more than those from the cities. Omkara was as accurate a portrayal of rural and semi urban Western UP lingo as you are going to get. Maybe you did not hear that kind of language because you are girl from Bombay and people were restrained in front of you, but that is how people do actually speak. Not having abuses or sentences like "Thokke ga peetega chhod dega" or "Kood....maine gotiyan pakad rakhi hain kya teri" or "Agar gooda hai...to utha moped aur teer ban ke nikal" would be fictional and exaggerated.
Lurker Posted February 10, 2013 Posted February 10, 2013 Having said that, I would definitely sympathize with a Munna of Rangeela or a Bunnu (Anil Kapoor) of Deewana Mastana. I surely wouldn't be moved by Sardar Khan or any other character in GoW. There is no way I can relate to them. And the witty Bollywood taporispeak definitely makes for much pleasant hearing that the stuff that one comes across in GoW. Mariyam, Of course you sympathize with Munna(Rangeela) or Bunnu (Deewana Mastana). You may even add Sidharth Marathe (Ghulam), Babban(Chunky Pandey in Tezaab) or Circuit (Munnabhai). Who would not? These are funny looking characters with a heart of gold. That they are good looking does not hurt. Or the fact that they will sacrifice themselves for a girl, or for their friends. Then again hate to break it to you but in real life such taporis do not exist! A Mumbai tapori lives in a chaal where he, and his family, shares the same bathroom with 50 other people. He looks like Chota Rajan or Ashwin Naik. His girlfriend is not Urmila or Madhuri, but instead are those at Kamathipura and Teen Batti. How do you like the Mumbai Tapori now? Sardar Khan is right on the money with how real life Bihari gangsters are, Munna and Bunnu exist only in movies. See the difference? As an aside, Lurks, I've traveled quite extensively in Western and Central UP. I've never come across anything remotely resembling what I've seen in GoW. And its the mannerisms that I'm talking about. The exaggerated and aggressive body language. Neither was the language that colourful. Of course, I am not saying that it doesn't exist, but to think that it would exist to a much larger degree in one locality of Dhanbad, and not in the rest of the North Indian plains would be a stretch. The only logical outcome is that the portrayal is highly fictional and exaggerated. Ditto with Omkara. Most of the Biharis I've come across all sing paeans about the Ganga Jamuna tehzeeb; Khusrao, Ramdhari Singh Dinkar and Mirza Raz. If anything, I would say that the average person from Bihar and maybe UP, is a lot more inclined towards literature and poetry in general than people from say Maharashtra or Gujarat. Especially more than those from the cities. Anyways, I digress..... There are different layers. I think there is a case to be made that the upward we are moving socially the more we are moving away from our own culture. Most Indian couples find it easy to say - I love you - than a much more sweet and romantic (in my opinion) - Hamein aapse beintehaa mohabbat hai. So we are okay if we hear in a Hollywood movie - Bloody pimp, freaking whhore...while Bhadwa saala randibaaj makes us uncomfortable, even though they mean the same. Your post set me thinking. Thank you for that, I will write an article sometime. :winky:
Nova Posted February 10, 2013 Posted February 10, 2013 Obscenities' date=' as they say, are the last refuge of the inarticulate![/quote'] Such quotes don't work for the medium of cinema. :headshake: Some of the best movies have shyt load of obscenities. Examples: Casino Goodfellas Reservoir Dogs Pulp Fiction The Departed American History X Scarface Closer All of the above movies, except Closer, are of the crime/gangster genre. You see a pattern here? You may be quite biased in your views, because you don't like such movies in the first place. Gangster flicks demand profanity as it defines a character and sets the tone of the movies. Cops and gangsters do swear in real life. PS. You gave Paan Singh Tomar 3/10. Serious gritty drama is not your style. :winky:
Mariyam Posted February 13, 2013 Posted February 13, 2013 Lurker, I am well aware what a tapori looks like, the kind of places he lives and what is the kind of language that is natural to him. I thought we were discussing cinema. I remember reading a paragraph from Maximum City in which a tapori/ street ruffian actually copies Anil Kapoor of Tezaab in his style of dressing. Point I'm trying to make is that the Munnas/Bunnus/Babbans of Bollywood have had as much of an impact on the dressing/ speech of taporis as the other way around. It is a symbiotic relationship. :D There is a basic disconnect here. I do not have any kind of a craving for realistic cinema. The slapstick comedies and romantic pot boilers do the trick for me. For you, as well as other NRIs, I suppose that realism means a lot more as being far away from India you would want a movie which depicts India as it is; instead of mindless and oft repetitive comedies and romantic flicks shot in Malaysia/Europe/Dubai. Movies are much more than entertainment for you (lot). They are a heady mix of entertainment and nostalgia.
Lurker Posted February 13, 2013 Posted February 13, 2013 I remember reading a paragraph from Maximum City in which a tapori/ street ruffian actually copies Anil Kapoor of Tezaab in his style of dressing. Point I'm trying to make is that the Munnas/Bunnus/Babbans of Bollywood have had as much of an impact on the dressing/ speech of taporis as the other way around. It is a symbiotic relationship. :D Gaya Varli ke gutter mein is what you are thinking. Parinda dialogue that was picked by underworld. Of course they feed on each other. My assertion was rather that the portrayal that makes you cringe in GOW is dead on, while the portrayals that make you like the characters mentioned are hardly accurate, or realistic. There is a basic disconnect here. I do not have any kind of a craving for realistic cinema. The slapstick comedies and romantic pot boilers do the trick for me. For you, as well as other NRIs, I suppose that realism means a lot more as being far away from India you would want a movie which depicts India as it is; instead of mindless and oft repetitive comedies and romantic flicks shot in Malaysia/Europe/Dubai. Movies are much more than entertainment for you (lot). They are a heady mix of entertainment and nostalgia. If I had a dollar, or rupee, for every time that argument was thrown in my face, it would have been hell of a lot worthwhile :winky: No, it has nothing to do with NRI status. It has a lot to do with the fact that perhaps your gender and social status makes you react in a certain way? Even if unknowingly :winky: Here, try this out sometime. If you have a naukrani, a kaamwaali, a dhoban or somebody from so called "poor" strata. Sit with them for the GOW, Omkara. Somebody who understands Hindi will help, better still from Bihar and UP area. See if they cringe as much as you do. My bet is that is not going to be the case. The higher we move in social hierarchy the more we try to move away from vernacular. Maybe that is a bit of fabric of our middle class values.
The Outsider Posted February 13, 2013 Posted February 13, 2013 There is a basic disconnect here. I do not have any kind of a craving for realistic cinema. The slapstick comedies and romantic pot boilers do the trick for me. For you, as well as other NRIs, I suppose that realism means a lot more as being far away from India you would want a movie which depicts India as it is; instead of mindless and oft repetitive comedies and romantic flicks shot in Malaysia/Europe/Dubai. Movies are much more than entertainment for you (lot). They are a heady mix of entertainment and nostalgia. Ufff Ho! Basic disconnect is that on one hand you are saying that the language used in Omkara is not how people actually converse, on the other you are saying that you don't like it because of the abuse. The first part is false and the second part is your opinion and choice. No one is contesting your likes or dislikes, what is being contested here is your assertion that Omkara does not represent the local linguistics and mannerisms. Shah Rukh Khan movies which have nothing to do with the style of cinema Omkara is from are invariably super hits in the US and devoured by the NRIs. So I don't understand your NRI point either. In fact Gangs of Waaseypur was not even released in the US.
Nova Posted February 13, 2013 Posted February 13, 2013 There is a basic disconnect here. I do not have any kind of a craving for realistic cinema. The slapstick comedies and romantic pot boilers do the trick for me. For you, as well as other NRIs, I suppose that realism means a lot more as being far away from India you would want a movie which depicts India as it is; instead of mindless and oft repetitive comedies and romantic flicks shot in Malaysia/Europe/Dubai. Movies are much more than entertainment for you (lot). They are a heady mix of entertainment and nostalgia. Movies are meant not only for entertainment but to get an insight into the culture they portray. Some of us like realistic cinema, for this reason, from Bollywood or Hollywood. It has nothing to do with NRI status.
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