Brainfade Posted July 2, 2012 Posted July 2, 2012 Man, this stuff is as abstract as it is fascinating. Anyone care to explain this to an atheistic non-physicist why they're calling it the "God" particle? http://news.yahoo.com/apnewsbreak-proof-god-particle-found-131226045.html GENEVA (AP) Scientists working at the world's biggest atom smasher plan to announce Wednesday that they have gathered enough evidence to show that the long-sought "God particle" answering fundamental questions about the universe almost certainly does exist. But after decades of work and billions of dollars spent, researchers at the European Organization for Nuclear Research, or CERN, aren't quite ready to say they've "discovered" the particle. Instead, experts familiar with the research at CERN's vast complex on the Swiss-French border say that the massive data they have obtained will essentially show the footprint of the key particle known as the Higgs boson all but proving it exists but doesn't allow them to say it has actually been glimpsed. It appears to be a fine distinction. Senior CERN scientists say that the two independent teams of physicists who plan to present their work at CERN's vast complex on the Swiss-French border on July 4 are about as close as you can get to a discovery without actually calling it one. "I agree that any reasonable outside observer would say, 'It looks like a discovery,'" British theoretical physicist John Ellis, a professor at King's College London who has worked at CERN since the 1970s, told The Associated Press. "We've discovered something which is consistent with being a Higgs." CERN's atom smasher, the $10 billion Large Hadron Collider, has been creating high-energy collisions of protons to help them understand suspected phenomena such as dark matter, antimatter and ultimately the creation of the universe billions of years ago, which many theorize occurred as a massive explosion known as the Big Bang. For particle physicists, finding the Higgs boson is a key to confirming the standard model of physics that explains what gives mass to matter and, by extension, how the universe was formed. Each of the two teams known as ATLAS and CMS involve thousands of people working independently from one another, to ensure accuracy. Rob Roser, who leads the search for the Higgs boson at the Fermilab in Chicago, said: "Particle physicists have a very high standard for what it takes to be a discovery," and he thinks it is a hair's breadth away. Rosen compared the results that scientists are preparing to announce Wednesday to finding the fossilized imprint of a dinosaur: "You see the footprints and the shadow of the object, but you don't actually see it." Though an impenetrable concept to many, the Higgs boson has until now been just that a concept intended to explain a riddle: How were the subatomic particles, such as electrons, protons and neutrons, themselves formed? What gives them their mass? The answer came in a theory first proposed by physicist Peter Higgs and others in the 1960s. It envisioned an energy field where particles interact with a key particle, the Higgs boson. The idea is that other particles attract Higgs bosons and the more they attract, the bigger their mass will be. Some liken the effect to a ubiquitous Higgs snowfield that affects other particles traveling through it depending on whether they are wearing, metaphorically speaking, skis, snowshoes or just shoes. Officially, CERN is presenting its evidence at a physics conference in Australia this week, but plans to accompany the announcement with meetings in Geneva. The two teams, ATLAS and CMS, then plan to publicly unveil more data on the Higgs boson at physics meetings in October and December. Scientists with access to the new CERN data say it shows with a high degree of certainty that the Higgs boson may already have been glimpsed, and that by unofficially combining the separate results from ATLAS and CMS it can be argued that a discovery is near at hand. Ellis says at least one physicist-blogger has done just that in a credible way. CERN spokesman James Gillies said Monday, however, that he would be "very cautious" about unofficial combinations of ATLAS and CMS data. "Combining the data from two experiments is a complex task, which is why it takes time, and why no combination will be presented on Wednesday," he told AP. But if the calculations are indeed correct, said John Guinon, a longtime physics professor at the University of California at Davis and author of the book "The Higgs Hunter's Guide," then it is fair to say that "in some sense we have reached the mountaintop." Sean M. Carroll, a California Institute of Technology physicist flying to Geneva for the July 4th announcement, said that if both ATLAS and CMS have independently reached these high thresholds on the Higgs boson, then "only the most curmudgeonly will not believe that they have found it." EDIT: CERN announces the discovery. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/large-hadron-collider/9374788/Higgs-Boson-announcement-from-Cern-as-it-happened.html
Clarke Posted July 2, 2012 Posted July 2, 2012 Looks like some big govt conspiracy to remove G*d from our lives.
Sachinism Posted July 2, 2012 Posted July 2, 2012 What's the god particle? Some non-existent atom that certain people want to believe in and let it dictate their lives?
Brainfade Posted July 2, 2012 Author Posted July 2, 2012 Looks like some big govt conspiracy to remove G*d from our lives. Clarke sir, I get your attempt at sarcastic humor, but this was meant to be a serious discussion about the discovery and what it means to our understanding of the mass of sub-atomic particles. Could we keep it that way? PS: Maybe the mods could move it to the nerd forum.
Brainfade Posted July 2, 2012 Author Posted July 2, 2012 What's the god particle? Some non-existent atom that certain people want to believe in and let it dictate their lives? It's not an atom. It is a yet undiscovered sub-sub-atomic particle that is the basis of the "matter" that gives protons, neutrons and electrons their mass (at least, that is my understanding).
bulbul Posted July 2, 2012 Posted July 2, 2012 guess they call it God particle because it is the basis for origin [scientists think..i don't know]
akshayxyz Posted July 2, 2012 Posted July 2, 2012 [layman alert] [atheistic-non-physicist to atheistic-non-physicist] my understanding of god particle/creation of matter. The perennial question among cosmologists, big-bang theorists is how was matter created in first place - if there is no 'intelligent' creator. How can something come out of nothing? Because, if big-bang is to be believed, there has to be a point in time, before which nothing - absolutely nothing - existed. There is something called as quantum fluctuations, that says particle-anti-particle pairs of virtual particles appear and disappear continuously - even in complete vacuum. Now, that kind of explains why there can be something out of nothing. But, still it does not explain, how the zero-sum of these matter-anti_matter pairs - at some point of time - can yield to overall positive matter, and eventually something as massive as universe. So, this God particle must be that particle, which once (or continuously) appears, creates (facilitates) that bias which allows matter to out-number anti-matter...or simply gives masses to particles. Since God is associated with 'creation', hence the term God particle.
Crookbond Posted July 2, 2012 Posted July 2, 2012 Check the video here http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/nstv/2011/12/macgregor-campbell-contributorwe-can-explain.html
akshayxyz Posted July 2, 2012 Posted July 2, 2012 Scholarly article for laymen. http://profmattstrassler.com/articles-and-posts/the-higgs-particle/why-the-higgs-particle-matters/
akshayxyz Posted July 2, 2012 Posted July 2, 2012 In the popular media, the particle is sometimes referred to as the God particle, a title generally disliked by the scientific community as media hyperbole that misleads readers.[9] So, my layman understanding#7, was exactly layman, influenced by hyperbole term. But, that's how I always thought, how matter would be created out of nothing..and when I read god-particle( higgs-field) gives mass to matter. I just fit it in my theory of creation of matter.
Nova Posted July 3, 2012 Posted July 3, 2012 Anyone care to explain this to an atheistic non-physicist why they're calling it the "God" particle? God particle is a marketing term to create hype and media interest. I don't think physicists really care about the use of this term. It's akin to the term "big bang" which was coined to sound more fascinating. There is no big bang which implies some sort of explosion... the more apt term should be big expansion.
The Outsider Posted July 3, 2012 Posted July 3, 2012 It's been one of the fascinations and challenges in Physics to think of the different forces we see in nature as manifestations of the same underlying force. Thus Electricity and Magnetism were unified and shown to be the same underlying force - Electromagnetism - through Maxwell's equations and later Electromagnetism and Weak forces were shown to be the same underlying force by Weinberg, Salam, and Glashow in their Electroweak theory. The Standard Model is the next step in the unification process which says that Electroweak and Strong forces (the ones governing the interactions between quarks and responsible for holding protons and neutrons together) are in fact one underlying force. We already know that the Standard Model will not be a complete theory because it predicts zero masses for neutrinos while there is strong evidence to suggest that neutrinos have mass. Nonetheless, since it works so well in some aspects like prediction of the bottom and top quarks which were later discovered that there should be a lot of truth to it. Also, if there is going to be any truth to String theory and unification of gravity in the future, some form of the Standard Model must hold because String Theory assumes a lot of results from the Standard Model. The Electroweak unification theory says that at very high energies the photon (carrier for the electromagnetic force) and W and Z Bosons (carriers for the Weak force) are identical. However, at low energies we see that is not the case and in particular W and Z Bosons have mass whereas a Photon is massless. How do you go from massless to something which has mass? The mechanism predicted is a combination of spontaneous symmetry breaking and a new field introduced in the Standard Model known as the Higgs field. First, to think of spontaneous symmetry breaking you can imagine a system in unstable equilibrium - like a Domino built from a pack of cards. Any slight disturbance to the system is going to break the symmetry. Below a certain energy (you can think of this energy as the energy where Electromagnetism decouples with Weak force due to spontaneous symmetry breaking) the Higgs field interacts differently with W and Z Bosons compared to Photons and this interaction gives mass to W and Z Bosons and leave the Photons unaffected. This interaction also gives rise to the particle, called the Higgs Boson or the God particle which is what scientists are trying to detect. The discovery of the Higgs Boson will be a great boost for the Standard Model and for the hope that at some point in the future we would be able to come up with a single unified theory of all forces - electricity, magnetism, weak, strong, and gravity. The Standard Model does not unify gravity at all and fields like String Theory attempt to do that. Why is it called the "God" particle? I am not sure of the origin. But it's very rarely referred by that name among the scientific community and might just be some journalistic embellishment. Tdigi, if I remember correctly the term Big Bang was actually coined by Fred Hoyle and/or his collaborators who were proponents of the Steady State hypothesis of the universe as a sort of disparaging term.
akshayxyz Posted July 3, 2012 Posted July 3, 2012 ^ So it still wont answer the question - something (as massive as Universe) out of (absolutely) nothing? or in other words, was there a point in time, before which there was nothing at all... I understand that concept of 'before' would be meaningless. But, if we must trust big-bang/big-expansion - there has to be a point, where we have to choose, either there was a point of 'absolute nothingness', or that ex-ex-ex...extremely condensed primordial matter/universe has there been forever, until the point it suddenly started expanding.
The Outsider Posted July 4, 2012 Posted July 4, 2012 ^ No, it does not imply the kind of results you are inferring at all. It is"merely" an attempt to unify Electromanism and particle physics.
Crookbond Posted July 4, 2012 Posted July 4, 2012 Higgs boson explained by a cartoon http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap120501.html
akshayxyz Posted July 4, 2012 Posted July 4, 2012 ^ No' date=' it does not imply the kind of results you are inferring at all. It is"merely" an attempt to unify Electromanism and particle physics.[/quote'] Ye tou badey dukh kee baat hui. That means there is at least one more particle/force remaining to be determined to answer origin of beginning.
Crookbond Posted July 4, 2012 Posted July 4, 2012 One of the papers from LHC experiment has 3000 authors http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0550321311002938#aff019 :secret:
b555 Posted July 4, 2012 Posted July 4, 2012 Aonther approach that i liked Q. What are the implications of this newly discovered particle? Why should non-physicists care about this? A. The search for the Higgs boson at the Large Hadron Collider is the culmination of research over the last half-century. This particle is inextricably intertwined with an incredibly mundane-sounding question: “What is the physics of motion?” Motion ties together the fundamental concepts of space, time and mass: Space and time are linked through velocity, while mass is the resistance to changes in velocity. Explaining motion was important enough that Aristotle sought to do so, and his answer stood for almost 2,000 years. But penetrating more deeply into the mysteries of motion led to the revolutions of Galileo, Newton and Einstein. In this same tradition, the Higgs boson holds the promise of beginning to finally elucidate the fundamental origins of mass. We cannot yet say whether the phenomenon we are reporting today is indeed the Higgs; that will take much more data to determine. But so far it fulfills our search criteria, and if confirmed, will set an important milestone in our understanding of nature. Should we be observing something other than the Higgs — well, that may be even more important. Q. What was MIT’s contribution to this finding? A. The MIT group is coordinated by six faculty members and has more than 50 members, including graduate and undergraduate students, making it the largest U.S. university group on the CMS experiment. The group was founded several decades ago by Jerry Friedman and the late Henry Kendall [both of MIT], together with Richard Taylor [of the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center, or SLAC], who demonstrated the existence of quarks in a series of experiments from 1967 to 1973. Today our group analyzes topics as diverse as heavy-ion physics and Higgs searches, which have become our focus since 2009. The MIT team is deeply involved in four of the five core searches for the Higgs boson. Our group’s most prominent contribution in finding this new particle is our work on the analysis of the Higgs’s decay to two photons, which represents the lion’s share of the observation of the new particle. Traditionally graduate students and postdocs are the workhorses of such analysis efforts, and in many ways our students and postdocs pioneered the analysis of Higgs bosons’ decay into two photons. One outstanding example was the introduction of advanced techniques — the so-called multivariate analyses, or MVA, techniques — into the standard analysis. The MVA has boosted the sensitivity of the two-photon analysis substantially. Through the rigorous application of MVA techniques, we were able to increase the power of the data by more than 50 percent. Q. What is the next step for this research? A. To find a particle discovery of similar magnitude, one perhaps has to go all the way back to 1974, and the discovery of the J/psi particle by Samuel Ting [of MIT] and Burton Richter [of SLAC]. At that time the nature of the J/psi particle was not obvious: There was speculation, but it took several years to unravel its nature completely. In the wake of that event, an entire new family of particles was discovered, which clearly determined the nature of the initially mysterious J/psi particle and changed our view of particle physics forever in the so-called “November Revolution.” The analogy with the present situation is certainly not perfect, but there are some important lessons to be learned. We do not yet understand the nature of this new particle we have found with the CMS experiment: We have our suspicions that it could be the Higgs boson, as predicted by the Standard Model, but it could also be something else. There is, for example, the theory of supersymmetry, which predicts more such types of particles that we might find in further analyses. Their discovery — or unambiguous identification of the new particle as something other than the Higgs boson — would be even more exciting and would cause another revolution in our understanding of particle physics. To resolve these issues, it is vital to map out the properties of this new particle, so our MIT research group will now focus on measuring all possible properties of this particle, including its couplings with other particles and its spin. This will require substantially more data and an extension of the analysis to include more ways this new particle might manifest in the detector. In the same vein, we will keep our eyes open for more particles of similar nature, since history tells us if you find one particle there might be more around the corner.
The Outsider Posted July 4, 2012 Posted July 4, 2012 Ye tou badey dukh kee baat hui. That means there is at least one more particle/force remaining to be determined to answer origin of beginning. To understand what happened so early on in the universe one needs a Quantum theory of Gravity which we don't have. Once the scale of the universe becomes small like the Planck time 10^-43 seconds one needs a quantum theory of gravity which we don't have, so anything before that time can be answered only when a self consistent quantum theory of gravity can be formulated.
The Outsider Posted July 4, 2012 Posted July 4, 2012 BTW, it has probably happened - CERN announced the discovery today of a Boson at 125.3 GeV with a significance of 4.9 standard deviations. The energy range is in lines with the predicted Higgs Boson and denotes the energy level at which Electromagnetism decouples from Weak force. It's a truly incredible discovery and gives a lot of credence to theories and attempts to unify the different forces we see in nature. Completely remarkable how something as exotic as the Higgs Boson can be predicted using just brains, pen, and paper though it took billions of dollars and countless man hours to prove it's existence, it's all going to be worth it. I can't overstate the importance of this discovery. Am moving this thread to Chit Chat for a while. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/large-hadron-collider/9374788/Higgs-Boson-announcement-from-Cern-as-it-happened.html
Recommended Posts