Olympics nothing less than a war for China

[Lurker]

Lurker, As an indian am I ashamed at the lack of physical fitness and sporting pedigree in Indians? yes absolutely (I get so annoyed seeing Indian guys in their 20's with pot bellies). Does the culture need to change with regards to this in India. absolutely yes. My question is why look at China, why not the USA, Aus or even some country like Jamaica to adapt the sporting culture from those places. China does a lot of underhanded stuff, which could lead to great results but which I dont want any part of.

Why emulate Americans even I say? One can even argue that American has historically lured top athletes from other countries with a citizenship carrot. Although Americans are first to proclaim it as a land of immigrant they would perhaps do well to realize it has always been the land of the most valuable immigrants :winky: Point being American models has its own fallacies, albeit lot less than Chinese. My assertion is to learn from the best, and Chinese are the best in many a games. Lets do that instead of taking stabs at them.

[ravishingravi]

Why emulate Americans even I say? One can even argue that American has historically lured top athletes from other countries with a citizenship carrot. Although Americans are first to proclaim it as a land of immigrant they would perhaps do well to realize it has always been the land of the most valuable immigrants :winky: Point being American models has its own fallacies, albeit lot less than Chinese. My assertion is to learn from the best, and Chinese are the best in many a games. Lets do that instead of taking stabs at them.

But I don't think the term "best" can be used in a void. One has to go back to the very basics of what kind of society are you trying to build, what should be the role of sports in education, how should the child be prepared to find his sport and succeed in it. And most importantly, what rights does he have. And yes he has a right to not play for his country. To get the best sportsmen, you have figure out the system you need to have in place. The system is determined by the objective, ethics, morality, philosophy of those who make it. So, it is rather simplistic to say "Oh lets see what the record breaking chinese swimmer did and do that". I don't think that is goal. The individual cannot be compromised. He has to be protected and nourished to achieve the same results. The record breaking swimmer is not only representing her talent but the system she has come through. Sports is like any other mode of expressing oneself. I want it to be an individual's right to express for the state not the other way round. To be quite honest I am very surprised as to how short sighted our approach has been towards some of these questions not to mention denial of some basic problems which cannot be justified under any code.

[Lurker]

To get the best sportsmen, you have figure out the system you need to have in place. The system is determined by the objective, ethics, morality, philosophy of those who make it. So, it is rather simplistic to say "Oh lets see what the record breaking chinese swimmer did and do that". I don't think that is goal. The individual cannot be compromised. He has to be protected and nourished to achieve the same results. The record breaking swimmer is not only representing her talent but the system she has come through.

You are somehow suggesting that those disagreeing here want the citizens to be thrown to the dogs here. :hehe: Iran and China have already been discussed by yours truly. Lets move on to Grenada now. Just stepped out of a meeting where folks marvel at how a country the size of Yuma is winning golds. So what now? Should we start comparing us to say Kazakhstan? Or Hungary? Or Ethiopia? Or Poland? Or Kenya? I can keep doing this whole day long and you can keep guarding human rights with all the flowery language, when really there is no need to :winky:

[coffee_rules]

You are somehow suggesting that those disagreeing here want the citizens to be thrown to the dogs here. :hehe: Iran and China have already been discussed by yours truly. Lets move on to Grenada now. Just stepped out of a meeting where folks marvel at how a country the size of Yuma is winning golds. So what now? Should we start comparing us to say Kazakhstan? Or Hungary? Or Ethiopia? Or Poland? Or Kenya? I can keep doing this whole day long and you can keep guarding human rights with all the flowery language, when really there is no need to :winky:

Why do we want to gold medals? What does Olympic superiority and Gold medals give to these countries Ethiopia, Hungary, Kazakhstan, or Kenya? DOes it solve any of their countries' problems?

[triam]

Lurker If the be all and end all of the sporting infrastructure is to get Olympic golds, then yes Chinese model is a very good template. But if the goal is to have a more sporting culture, we should really look at US/Aus (Forget who wins for USA, immigrants etc), I am talking about the culture where a 60 yr old guy heck runs a marathon just for the fun of it.

[Lurker]

Why do we want to gold medals? What does Olympic superiority and Gold medals give to these countries Ethiopia' date=' Hungary, Kazakhstan, or Kenya? DOes it solve any of their countries' problems?[/quote'] Is that a reason OR an excuse?

[Lurker]

Lurker If the be all and end all of the sporting infrastructure is to get Olympic golds, then yes Chinese model is a very good template. But if the goal is to have a more sporting culture, we should really look at US/Aus (Forget who wins for USA, immigrants etc), I am talking about the culture where a 60 yr old guy heck runs a marathon just for the fun of it.

Oh I am all for the growth of sporting culture but obviously that is not going to happen for a long long time really. We can romanticize all we want but what are the odds that in a country where a 50th selection IPL player (say) makes more money than Number 1 Shuttler, or pugilist, we will see a change? I do concur that I would much rather have an Aussie sporting culture though, rather than Chinese way of sporting.

[straighttalk]

Lurker If the be all and end all of the sporting infrastructure is to get Olympic golds, then yes Chinese model is a very good template. But if the goal is to have a more sporting culture, we should really look at US/Aus (Forget who wins for USA, immigrants etc), I am talking about the culture where a 60 yr old guy heck runs a marathon just for the fun of it.

china may not have a sporting culture regarding modern track and field events...but it has a very rich history of physical culture not just limited to its extremely rich martial arts history. http://www.asia-planet.net/china/physical-culture-sports.htm here is a link if you are curious about the growth of sporting culture in china.

[straighttalk]

http://kaleidoscope.cultural-china.com/en/11Kaleidoscope6493.html

[Lurker]

china may not have a sporting culture regarding modern track and field events...but it has a very rich history of physical culture not just limited to its extremely rich martial arts history. http://www.asia-planet.net/china/physical-culture-sports.htm here is a link if you are curious about the growth of sporting culture in china.

Of course China has a good sporting culture. Why else would every American sports franchise, right from NBA to NFL, bending over backwards to get an entry into China? Premier football clubs are trying to market their products and play matches. If China was indeed merely a Dictatorial regime where the only athletes were kids under rough training regime, there would be no market for these sports franchise would it now? That said, it is a comparative thing between going for say a Chinese model vis a vis Aussie model, I personally prefer the latter.

[straighttalk]

Looked up at wikipedia...gives a comprehensive list of olympic medals and also the popularity of different sports. in particular...details how much the government has invested in the growth of sports. and here we are dissing at such a noble endeavor. in case anyone has the paitence..here are the two links http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport_in_the_People's_Republic_of_China http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_at_the_Olympics The second link clearly shows that China has won across many different disciplines and clearly they have won bulk of the medals in some select sports. But overall, they have won in many different events. But the most interesting piece of information is in the first link..which clearly shows that the western media has been very biased and most posters here have failed to keep an open mind about the same and has accused WITHOUT A SHRED OF EVIDENCE that people in China are forced to train against their wishes. I will just quote some passages from the link for the sake of pointing that out- 1.Although China has long been associated with the martial arts, sport in China today consists of a variety of competitive sports played in China, including mainland China, Hong Kong and Macau. Traditional Chinese culture regards physical fitness as an important aspect, and, since the 20th century, a large number of sports activities, both Western and traditionally Chinese, are popular in China. The country has its own national quadrennial multi-sport event similar to the Olympic Games, the National Games of the People's Republic of China. 2.Badminton, football, basketball and table tennis are the main sports in China. Prior to the 1990s, sport in China, as in some other countries, was completely government-funded. Some top athletes had quit at the height of their careers because they were uncertain about life post retirement. The situation began to change in 1994 when Chinese football became the first sport to take the professionalization road and in its wake similar reforms were carried out in basketball, volleyball, ping pong and weiqi. The process brought with it commercialization; sport associations became profit-making entities and a club system came into being; professional leagues formed, improving China's sports environment; and commercial management systems took shape. 3.The influx of modern sports appeared in China since the beginning of the 20th Century. The People's Republic of China has emphasized on sports and the government funds and trains young talented players into professional players, especially in the mid-20th century. Ping pong is one of the biggest amateur recreational sports in China today, with an estimated 200 million players. Badminton is also well established and quite popular in China. Football and basketball are also shown on TV. Popular amateur sports include table tennis, badminton, martial arts and various forms of pool. China's professional sports are in its developmental stages. 4.Basketball Yao Ming and other NBA success stories have helped to popularize basketball in China. The game was introduced to China by American YMCA workers in 1896, just five years after the Canadian, Dr. James Naismith, had invented the game while working for the YMCA Training School in Springfield, Massachusetts.[9] Since the arrival of Yao Ming in the NBA in 2002, the game has grown considerably in the world's most populated country. Some experts estimate as many as 300 million of China's 1.3 billion population now play basketball 5. Cricket Main article: China national cricket team Cricket is a fast growing sport in China. It is already a well established sport in Hong Kong, a former British Colony. The Chinese cricket team is the team that represents the country of the People's Republic of China in international cricket. The Chinese Cricket Association became an International Cricket Council affiliate member in 2004. It should be noted that the Special administrative region of Hong Kong is a member of the ICC in their own right, becoming an ICC associate member in 1969. Hence, players from Hong Kong are not eligible to represent China in international competition. Prior to the establishment of a recognized national side, the Shanghai Cricket Club, the largest club in the country, played games against many touring sides but they do not receive official recognition from the Chinese Cricket Association. Since September 2005, the Chinese Cricket Association has conducted 8 coaching/umpiring training courses under the assistance from the Asian Cricket Council (ACC). They were promoted in 9 cities in China, namely Beijing, Shanghai, Shenyang, Dalian, Guangzhou, Shenzhen, Chongqing, Tianjin and Jinan. More than 150 schools were involved. The Chinese Cricket Association has set itself other goals over the next 14 years. [7] A list of these goals follows: 2009: Have 720 teams across the country in a well-organized structure 2015: Have 20,000 players and 2,000 coaches 2019: Qualify for the World Cup 2020: Gain Test status 6. Football is the most popular spectator sport[13] in the country and has been one of the most well supported sports in China ever since it was introduced in the 1900s.[citation needed] At the international level, Chinese football has enjoyed little success despite the amount of support it receives from fans. Although the national team qualified for the 2002 World Cup, they failed to score a single goal and lost 3 group matches. Football has always been among the more popular amateur team sports for recreation in China, although in recent years has been surpassed by basketball. [9] High schools often have football facilities, some of which are rented on weekends to local amateur teams to organize matches. It is also the most popular sports to watch on television, with large international tournaments such as the World Cup and the European Championships, as well as major European leagues receiving widespread coverage 7.The results in competitive sports were down to a training system which is constantly being perfected. It is based on youth amateur sports schools and basic-level clubs, with teams representing localities as the backbone, and the national team at the highest level. The training system ensures that China elite teams maintain a year-round squad of some 20,000 athletes.

[straighttalk]

Question...is why is the Chineese government funding cricket? Are they forcing people to play cricket. Next when China kicks India's ass are we going to say well they train hard but we have a better cricketing history. Look at the support China provides for football and basketball. Basketball is the most popular amateur sports in China. If you read the article completely, you eyes will open to the biased reporting in western media.

[straighttalk]

This in itself warrants a separate thread but this is how PRC promotes sports and fitness in the country. By encouraging and providing facilities- The "Physical Health Law of the People's Republic of China" was adopted in 1995. In the same year, the State Council promulgated the "Outline of Nationwide Physical Fitness Program", followed by a series of rules and regulations. A survey released by the State Physical Culture Administration indicates that at present 33.9% of the population between 7 and 70 exercise regularly and 60.7 percent of the urban population go to sports clubs to engage in fitness activities. It is expected that by the end of 2005, 37 percent of China's total population will participate in regular physical exercises, and that over 95 percent of students will meet the National Physical Exercise Standard. Aiming to improve the health and the overall physical condition of the general population, the Nationwide Physical Fitness Program, with an emphasis on young people and children, encourages everyone to engage in at least one sporting activity every day, learn at least two ways of keeping fit and have a health examination every year. In this 15 year long program, the government aims to build a sport and health-building service system for the general public. There are about 620,000 gymnasiums and stadiums across China, most of them open to and widely used by the general public. Outdoor fitness centers have been installed in urban communities in public parks, squares, schoolyards, and other convenient locations. All communities and neighborhoods in Beijing are equipped with fitness facilities that meet the national standard. Building on what it already had, Tianjin has instituted large-scale expansion of its outdoor and indoor fitness facilities and stadiums. 2004 saw the completion of China's first large fitness arena with a floor area in excess of 10,000 sq m,etc. Starting in 2001, the State Physical Culture Administration has set aside the proceeds of the sports lottery as pilot funds, in order to build "China Sports Lottery Nationwide Physical Fitness Centers" as pilot projects in 31 large and medium-sized cities throughout the country, including Dalian, Beijing and Changchun. Some of these centers have already been built. Meanwhile, some 196 million yuan of sports lottery proceeds were used to construct public sporting facilities in China's less-developed western areas and in the Three Gorges region of the Yangtze River, supporting 101 counties and towns. With the increase in nationwide fitness activities, people's outlook on life has also changed. In many large and medium-sized cities, spending money in the pursuit of good health has become trendy. New types of sport, including rock climbing, horsemanship, bungee jumping, bowling, skateboarding, women's boxing, shuffleboard, taekwondo and golf are particularly popular among young people. At the end of 2003, work was started on China's first snow golf course in A'er Mountain, Inner Mongolia. This project, representing an investment of about 1 billion yuan, will be the sixth snow golf course in the world. The Nationwide Physical Fitness Program has set targets that, by 2010, about 40 percent of China's population will participate in regular physical exercise, there will be a clear improvement in the national physique and a major increase in the number of fitness sites so as to satisfy people's needs for keeping fit. Between 1990 and 2002 the average life expectancy of China's population increased by 3.25 years, reaching 71.8 years, approaching the level of moderately developed countries. The latest survey of the national health, which ended in October 2001, extended over three years and 31 provinces, autonomous regions and municipalities directly under the Central Government, making it China's largest ever in terms of scale and population numbers. The survey showed an increase in the growth of children and teenagers in China's rural areas, every index showing an average rate of increase surpassing that of same age group children in the cities. But the survey also revealed some grounds for concern. Chinese people's physical faculties drop sharply after they turned 40. In cities obesity poses a big threat to the health of children and teenagers, and overweight is also very common among adults. The health of women in rural areas is far from satisfactory. Based on the survey findings, relevant departments of the government continuously study methods of keeping fit, set new ways and standards for different age groups and strengthen instruction at community level.

[straighttalk]

http://www.china.org.cn/e-china/sports/popular.htm Chinese government issued a notice stipulating that workers and staff of government offices and other organizations have a ten-minute break in the mornings and afternoons to do exercises or engage in other sports. In the same years the state also worked out a sports system to increase labor and defense capabilities, and it was carried out throughout the country. It was changed into the Athletic Fitness Standard for young people in the 1960s and then into State Athletic Fitness Standard in the 1970s. In the past 50 years, about one billion people have met the state standard. In more than 20 years since the reform and opening to the outside world started, sports activities have been rich in variety, in the wake of the development of the national economy and improvement of the general standard of living. More and more people consider regular sports activities to be part of their daily lives in both rural and urban areas. he first New Long March Sports Meeting for the Aged was held in Beijing in 1978. The Chinese Association of Sports for the Aged was founded in April 1983. Then different mass sports associations and organizations were founded, such as the Angling Association, Kite Association and Dragon Boat Association. The popularity of sports activities in China has fostered many world-class athletes. Among the 94 medals captured in the 1988 Seoul Olympic Games, 26 were won by athletes from ChinaÃÔ rural areas. On New Year Day in 1995, the Chinese government put forward the Whole-People Health-Building Plan, with the aim of improving the peopleÃÔ physiques and health. This plan is named the Å°ne-Two-One Project, whereby everyone should take part in at least one sports activity every day, learn at least two health-building methods and take one physical examination once a year. The Physical Health Law of the PeopleÃÔ Republic of China was adopted by the Standing Committee of NPC on August 29, 1995. It was the first time for the state to enshrine the principle of ÅÑromoting physical culture and building up the peopleÃÔ health in law. Juan Antonio Samaranch, chairman of the International Olympic Committee, proposed that China should hold a mass bicycle contest in 100 cities, and in 1995 such a contest was held in China participated in by more than one million people from 107 cities, which was considered an unprecedented event in the world by the representative of Samaranch. In 1998 taijiquan was performed in Tiananmen Square in Beijing by 10,000 taijiquan enthusiasts from both China and abroad. In recent years, some new sports, such as rock climbing, horse racing, bungee jumping, bowling, skateboard, womanÃÔ boxing, taekwondo and golf are becoming popular among Chinese people, especially young urban people. Sports grounds and gymnasiums have never been so busy as at present. For example, swimming pools in Beijing open from morning till night, and are always busy, and the number of fitness centers has been increasing day by day. There are also many roller-skating rinks in Beijing. A lot of people also play table tennis and tennis. According to investigations of some Chinese cities, the annual increase rate of the number of people participating in sports activities is two percent. so yes they did not have a sporting culture..yet they are improving and we are nitpicking that they train hard and accusing without any basis that china is a dictatorship wherein young kids are picked up against their wishes and made to train for hours and without interest or any personal dedication..just under the threat of force...olympic champions are produced ...and they are defeating people in usa and asutralia..where the enjoy the best facilities and according to most posters....enjoy freedom and train at their best... do you guys realize how incredibly stupid your argument that the athletes are trained against their wish sound?

[straighttalk]

Of course China has a good sporting culture. Why else would every American sports franchise, right from NBA to NFL, bending over backwards to get an entry into China? Premier football clubs are trying to market their products and play matches. If China was indeed merely a Dictatorial regime where the only athletes were kids under rough training regime, there would be no market for these sports franchise would it now? That said, it is a comparative thing between going for say a Chinese model vis a vis Aussie model, I personally prefer the latter.

i agree....but people here are saying that child abuse, torture etc is going on in china.. my beef is with these words..if a criticism is made about the training methods...then its a much more valid one....because one is individual ..other is state controlled..

[coffee_rules]

Of course China has a good sporting culture. Why else would every American sports franchise, right from NBA to NFL, bending over backwards to get an entry into China? Premier football clubs are trying to market their products and play matches. If China was indeed merely a Dictatorial regime where the only athletes were kids under rough training regime, there would be no market for these sports franchise would it now? That said, it is a comparative thing between going for say a Chinese model vis a vis Aussie model, I personally prefer the latter.

NBA and NFL have a business model. NFL runs a NFL europe every season to promote the game in Europe. NBA has marketed the game, so much in the caribbean that it is the #1 sport after soccer. Cricket has taken a background. China is a good market for US sports. Huge # of people who follow US sport/pop-culture/lifestyles/ is a good enough market for the sport to grow. We are mixing up stuff.

[coffee_rules]

Copy-pasting Chinese propaganda material doesn't prove anything, Any criticism of Chinese people has been curtailed in the internet by their government. chinatalk , take a break...

[straighttalk]

Copy-pasting Chinese propaganda material doesn't prove anything' date=' Any criticism of Chinese people has been curtailed in the internet by their government. chinatalk , take a break...[/quote'] wikipedia..last i heard is not a chineese entity...just hiding behind the garb of chineese propaganda material and discounting historical events which are known worldwide and spewing biased rhetoric from western media doesn't change the truth

[triam]

@straighttalk you consider nytimes and guardian biased western media?

[straighttalk]

@straighttalk you consider nytimes and guardian biased western media?

the news papers are reputed and have a long history...but most newspapers carry many editorials and opinion piece and that depicts mostly one side of the story... even those news papers never mentioned thing like child abuse or kids being kidnapped for training..what they mentioned was extremely hard training... if the debate was confined to whether that training is good or bad..then it would have been objective criticism..however most people have used words like child abuse, human rights, torture and someone used the word barbaric practice...those are uncalled for in describing a very noble pursuit of excellence.