Its the decision to bowl first...

[Chandan]

I am not comparing India Vs Abroad. I am comparing subcontinental Vs non-subcontinental conditions' date=' which makes more sense because we want to analyze the performance of our players in conditions alien to them.[/quote'] Why? What has subcontinent got to do with it? Were the Pak mpitches same sa that in India? Have the SL pitches been same as in India? I just don't understand this subcontinent business!! After some day, we'll start saying about our performances in hemispheres!

[Ram]

Why? What has subcontinent got to do with it? Were the Pak mpitches same sa that in India? Have the SL pitches been same as in India? I just don't understand this subcontinent business!! After some day, we'll start saying about our performances in hemispheres!

Ofcourse pitches in India , B'desh , Pak and SL are similar to each other in pace and bounce. You would be denying the obvious if you say no to that. I think that comparison is a very objective and fair one.

[Chandan]

F'leg , Accepted that our team fails to inspire confidence sometimes. But , sometimes , it is easy to be the voice of doom and gloom , to castigate people left and right. It takes a lot of faith to stand by your team when things go wrong. That is what we try to do , and i dont see anything wrong in that. And after all , this is just a game. Nothing more , nothing less.

And it is you who have to decide whether you're a fair weather fan or a different one!

[Chandan]

Ofcourse pitches in India , B'desh , Pak and SL are similar to each other in pace and bounce. You would be denying the obvious if you say no to that. I think that comparison is a very objective and fair one.

And pitches in Australia, NZ and SA are also similar. Do we ever hear about our performance or anyone else's in southern hemisphere? If not, why?

[Ram]

And it is you who have to decide whether you're a fair weather fan or a different one!

I will hope for a win even if India Z plays Australia's all time best time. Its my fate that i am madly crazy about this game + blindly patriotic about my country. Now this is all getting stupidly sentimental. So , lets all dance ! :yay:

[Ram]

And pitches in Australia, NZ and SA are also similar. Do we ever hear about our performance or anyone else's in southern hemisphere? If not, why?

But , that is not the point of the debate. We are discussing about India's performance in non-sub continental conditions.

[fineleg]

For starters' date=' drop the Maharathis.[/quote']

This is outragious!! A cast creed or region has nothing to do if you consider the improvement of the team!!

Eh? Mrs. Chandan...where does caste/ creed/region come into this? :stoned::stoned::stoned: The only caste/creed here is the sitting-on-past-glory cricketers. Region: all these guys are Indians but not from same region. Unless ofcourse you are doing the confusion between Marathi and Maharathi. :haha: Please refer to: http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=89011&postcount=52 and to http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=49823&postcount=40

[Chandan]

But ' date=' that is not the point of the debate. We are discussing about India's performance in non-sub continental conditions.[/quote'] Actually that is the point. Why should the whole subcontinent be rolled into one? When we had gone to SL we saw that the pitches were completely different from that of India where batting in seond inning was almost impossible. In Pak, we saw few of the flattest of flat track in tests while they were seaming beauties in ODIs. India has a pretty flat track too not not as flat as that of Pak apart from the Nagpur track. So why should the whole subcontinent be rolled into one?? And if that is necessary, then why should we not do that with other parts of world too??? This is one basic question. And second is that I don't think Pak-SL-BD is akin to home for India; exactly the same way as Australia and NZ are not the home of SA.

[Chandan]

Eh? Mrs. Chandan...where does caste/ creed/region come into this? :stoned::stoned::stoned: The only caste/creed here is the sitting-on-past-glory cricketers. Region: all these guys are Indians but not from same region. Unless ofcourse you are doing the confusion between Marathi and Maharathi. :haha: Please refer to: http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=89011&postcount=52 and to http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=49823&postcount=40

Can you name the players instead?

[fineleg]

Sriram, Nothing abt being patriotic or unpatriotic. Its a game(like you said), and its ok if an Indian fan even supports Aus. Nothing wrong with that. (Thats a separate discussion - some seem to think that an Indian fan not supporting India is unpatriotic, others think that is not the case - its a different debate for a different day). In anycase, being REALISTIC about India's chances has nothing to do with patriotism - thats a loaded word. (forget India Z, if India plays Aus in Aus, there is 85-90% chance Ind's ass will be whooped by the Aussies - thats reality of today).

[fineleg]

Can you name the players instead?

from our current odi squad: SRT, SG, RD, AA

[Ram]

Its not just the seam movement or overcast conditions that we talk about , its the bounce. The trend is hard to miss Chandan. In India/pak/Sl/BD , our team has proven to be world beaters. Outside these countries , we have sucked , a lot. And i do not understand why you would want to react in the way you are , to essentially observations made about our team. There is nothing wrong in saying - " We are good in certain areas , we are bad in other ones" . It is to essentially improve ourselves , not to just criticize.

[Ram]

Sriram, Nothing abt being patriotic or unpatriotic. Its a game(like you said), and its ok if an Indian fan even supports Aus. Nothing wrong with that. (Thats a separate discussion - some seem to think that an Indian fan not supporting India is unpatriotic, others think that is not the case - its a different debate for a different day). In anycase, being REALISTIC about India's chances has nothing to do with patriotism - thats a loaded word. (forget India Z, if India plays Aus in Aus, there is 85-90% chance Ind's ass will be whooped by the Aussies - thats reality of today).

Hey , i made that patriotic comment with ref to Chandan's query about me being an all-weather fan or not. Surely wasnt directed against posters who make constructive criticism and objective assessments of our team. And yes , i understand that supporting/not supporting the cricket team has nothing to do with being patriotic/non-patriotic.

[Chandan]

Its not just the seam movement or overcast conditions that we talk about ' date= its the bounce. The trend is hard to miss Chandan. In India/pak/Sl/BD , our team has proven to be world beaters. Outside these countries , we have sucked , a lot. And i do not understand why you would want to react in the way you are , to essentially observations made about our team. There is nothing wrong in saying - " We are good in certain areas , we are bad in other ones" . It is to essentially improve ourselves , not to just criticize.

Can you tell me when we last won in SL, if you're so convinced about the similarity and India's strength? And aren't Aus, SA and NZ pitches the same bouncy one? So why don't we have a similar comparison for those teams in similar conditions?

[Chandan]

from our current odi squad: SRT' date=' SG, RD, AA[/quote'] And who do you wish to replace them with?

[Ram]

Can you tell me when we last won in SL, if you're so convinced about the similarity and India's strength? And aren't Aus, SA and NZ pitches the same bouncy one? So why don't we have a similar comparison for those teams in similar conditions?

I dont think we have played even a single ODI match in Sri Lanka in the last 2 years. We did go there during the latter half of 2006 , but all the matches got washed out. All my stats were for 2 years , from aug 2005 to aug 2007, which i think is a fair timeline to judge a team's strength and weaknesses. And for the second part of your post , i assume you are asking me to do a comparison for Australia/NZ/SA with respect to their record in these countries and in the subcontinent. I wish i could do it, but it would take a painfully long time for me to finish it. For India alone, i had to browse through the matches/series Archive feature in cricinfo for every ODI series India played in the last 24 months, which took about 20 mins in itself. But off the top of my head , i can say Aus have been fairly dominant everywhere , and their only two major losses have infact come in Aus ( VB series) and NZ ( Chappell-Hadlee trophy)

[Chandan]

And for the second part of your post , i assume you are asking me to do a comparison for Australia/NZ/SA with respect to their record in these countries and in the subcontinent. I wish i could do it, but it would take a painfully long time for me to finish it. For India alone, i had to browse through the matches/series Archive feature in cricinfo for every ODI series India played in the last 24 months, which took about 20 mins in itself. But off the top of my head , i can say Aus have been fairly dominant everywhere , and their only two major losses have infact come in Aus ( VB series) and NZ ( Chappell-Hadlee trophy)

No. I'm not asking you to do that. But to give me one reason why, we the fans or the media do not consider them to be similar if they consider that the whole sub-continent is similar? And I'm tired of this sub-continent thing!! You have to do a home an away comparision. Why on earth will you include the whole subcontinent as the home of India? They are different countries who play cricket, same as SA, NZ and Australia. I NEVER read any person--in fan or media, referring to SA's performance in Southern hemisphere and outside it!! Why should we do so for subcontinent??? Why??? PS: Sorry if I was aggressive in debate!:regular_smile:

[fineleg]

And who do you wish to replace them with?

Replace them with some youngsters. Yes I say "some" youngsters...the selectors can decide on them, atleast we will play a future team and try to build one. Its ok if in the process we lose for a year to other teams.

[Chandan]

Replace them with some youngsters. Yes I say "some" youngsters...the selectors can decide on them' date=' atleast we will play a future team and try to build one. Its ok if in the process we lose for a year to other teams.[/quote'] I'd ask you to suggest the names. Selectors will do what they are doing. If you don't like it, then suggest a full remedy.

[beetle]

I agree. The holy trinity needs to retire from ODIs unless all ODI tracks we play on are difficult ones to bat on because on such tracks' date=' their class will outshine the opposing team's batsmen. However, on flat tracks(on which 99% of ODIs are played), more often that not, they will be outscored by younger and fitter batsmen.[/quote'] :dito: