yoda Posted March 23, 2013 Posted March 23, 2013 Not quite. They were entering a grey area and I think it would not have gone SC's way in the long run. SC has no jurisdiction whatsoever. Diplomatic immunity means the subject can not be arrested or prosecuted or interrogated regardless of the seriousness of the crime and regardless of the evidence. Even if it's murder or espionage' date=' the worst the SC or the Indian government could have done was to expel him and send him back to Italy.[/quote'] Apparently immunity is not applicable if you chose to subject yourself to the courts by giving an affidavit, etc.
Crookbond Posted March 23, 2013 Posted March 23, 2013 So what happens now if India shows a giant ..l.' date=' to I[b']taly after they arrive back and abolish the new deal on death penalty? It wasn't going to be a death penalty in the first place. The families of the accused have also withdrawn cases against the Italian marines.
seedhi Posted March 23, 2013 Posted March 23, 2013 Why is it a face saving exercise for us? Apart from being trusting, what wrong has India done here? I agree they shouldn't have been let off to vote, but their Ambassador had given the court a written affidavit of sorts. They came, they murdered, and they were arrested. They tried to dump their GPS into the sea, to deny the investigative authorities the exact location of the crime. India, yet hasn't charged them with evidence tampering/ destruction. If anything we've already been lenient. Their ambassador lied to our court and his government went back on the promise that they had made to the court. Where we showed some kind of largese, their government was deceitful. India exerted some kind of pressure on the Italians and they were finally brow beaten into sending the 2 marines back.Does the court show a similar largesse towards Indian undertrials? And as far as Italians being browbeaten - they were able to extract two crucial promises from GoI - that the marines will stay in the Italian embassy (which is sovereign Italian land) and if convicted, they will serve their term in Italy. So how is this anything more than a vacation for those marines?
yoda Posted March 23, 2013 Posted March 23, 2013 Does the court show a similar largesse towards Indian undertrials? And as far as Italians being browbeaten - they were able to extract two crucial promises from GoI - that the marines will stay in the Italian embassy (which is sovereign Italian land) and if convicted, they will serve their term in Italy. So how is this anything more than a vacation for those marines? wow, sounds like a sweet deal for murder.
CSK Fan Posted March 24, 2013 Posted March 24, 2013 Does the court show a similar largesse towards Indian undertrials? And as far as Italians being browbeaten - they were able to extract two crucial promises from GoI - that the marines will stay in the Italian embassy (which is sovereign Italian land) and if convicted, they will serve their term in Italy. So how is this anything more than a vacation for those marines? Doesn't this happen with any international incidents similar to this, some lee way is always given
Crookbond Posted March 24, 2013 Posted March 24, 2013 Does the court show a similar largesse towards Indian undertrials? And as far as Italians being browbeaten - they were able to extract two crucial promises from GoI - that the marines will stay in the Italian embassy (which is sovereign Italian land) and if convicted, they will serve their term in Italy. So how is this anything more than a vacation for those marines? This is not just for the Italian Marines but for any national of the two countries - so an Indian can serve his trial in the Indian prison if convicted in Italy and vice-versa.
Raghav_12 Posted March 24, 2013 Posted March 24, 2013 This is not just for the Italian Marines but for any national of the two countries - so an Indian can serve his trial in the Indian prison if convicted in Italy and vice-versa. But recently I saw a news that there are more than 100 indians are locked up in Italian jails. Why any of these rules are not applicable to them? If following two things are true 1. They'll stay in Italian Embassy during trial 2. They serve their punishment in Italian prison, then this case this point onwards would be a joke. However, I am not against if there is any deal about death penalty as it anyway was not likely in case of marines.
Crookbond Posted March 24, 2013 Posted March 24, 2013 But recently I saw a news that there are more than 100 indians are locked up in Italian jails. Why any of these rules are not applicable to them? If following two things are true 1. They'll stay in Italian Embassy during trial 2. They serve their punishment in Italian prison, then this case this point onwards would be a joke. However, I am not against if there is any deal about death penalty as it anyway was not likely in case of marines. 1. Where else will they stay? The incident happened in no man's land plus the families of the death victims have withdrawn their cases. 2. There is a pact between India and Italy that sentenced prisoners can serve jail time in either country. This however doesn't apply to convicts on death row. Ironically, the agreement was reached a month before the Italian marines incident and came into effect December last year. http://www.indianexpress.com/news/if-convicted-italian-marines-can-serve-jail-term-at-home/1072376/0
Raghav_12 Posted March 24, 2013 Posted March 24, 2013 1. Where else will they stay? The incident happened in no man's land plus the families of the death victims have withdrawn their cases. 2. There is a pact between India and Italy that sentenced prisoners can serve jail time in either country. This however doesn't apply to convicts on death row. Ironically, the agreement was reached a month before the Italian marines incident and came into effect December last year. http://www.indianexpress.com/news/if-convicted-italian-marines-can-serve-jail-term-at-home/1072376/0 India never conceded to Italian contention that incident happened in international waters. Then why use that to justify some other act? And if government believes that incident happened in international waters, which it does as per your logic, then Indian judicial system has no jurisdiction over the incident and this should be stopped immediately.
Mariyam Posted March 24, 2013 Posted March 24, 2013 1. Where else will they stay? The incident happened in no man's land plus the families of the death victims have withdrawn their cases. The incident ( murder, would be a more apt word) happened inside the territorial waters of India and not in international waters as claimed by the marines, who conveniently disposed of their GPS. The ship which took the hits didn't. Long story short: The nations' territorial waters are tri-layered. 1) Soverign water limits- 12 nautical miles from the nearest coast. 2) Contiguous zone of India- 24 nautical miles from the nearest coast 3) Exclusive Economic zone- 200 nautical miles from the nearest coast. The trawler was well in the exclusive economic zone, which as per all existing maritime conventions are the territorial waters of India, in which only Indian fishermen can go fishing or Indian oil companies can drill etc. That a merchant ship would not be aware of this is as credible as Mohammed Amir saying that he doesn't know what a no ball is. This is a lengthy, but very informative article on the issue http://www.keralaw.com/judgments/case-number/writ-petition-civil/2012-4542 And why is the withdrawing of complaints even relevant? It is a crime against the state.
Mariyam Posted March 24, 2013 Posted March 24, 2013 Does the court show a similar largesse towards Indian undertrials? And as far as Italians being browbeaten - they were able to extract two crucial promises from GoI - that the marines will stay in the Italian embassy (which is sovereign Italian land) and if convicted, they will serve their term in Italy. So how is this anything more than a vacation for those marines? This I wasn't aware of. Haven't (yet) come across anything of the sort in the media. Print or TV.
Crookbond Posted March 24, 2013 Posted March 24, 2013 India never conceded to Italian contention that incident happened in international waters. Then why use that to justify some other act? And if government believes that incident happened in international waters' date=' which it does as per your logic, then Indian judicial system has no jurisdiction over the incident and this should be stopped immediately.[/quote'] OK - Here is the ruling of the SC BEFORE they refused to return from Italy after going for the second time. http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/centre-told-to-set-up-special-court-to-try-italian-marines/article4319164.ece So clearly, this is NO deal but the same state even before they went to Italy. Like I also said earlier, the deal for Italian Marines to serve sentence in Italy is not really a deal with the marines but a deal with any prisoner per se. Mind you this applies to India as well.
DomainK Posted March 24, 2013 Posted March 24, 2013 Apparently immunity is not applicable if you chose to subject yourself to the courts by giving an affidavit' date=' etc.[/quote'] That's highly debatable.
G_B_ Posted March 24, 2013 Posted March 24, 2013 Its not "murder" its manslaughter. Dont think the marines woke up one day and said lets kill some locals.
G_B_ Posted March 24, 2013 Posted March 24, 2013 btw kudos to the SC and the congress for bringing them back.
yoda Posted March 25, 2013 Posted March 25, 2013 Its not "murder" its manslaughter. Dont think the marines woke up one day and said lets kill some locals. Manslaughter typically is when it is accidental killing. When you are a trained military person and you fire at someone, what do you think is going to happen? These guys assumed them to be pirates with no evidence to indiate they were threatened, decided to fire and kill them, then proceeded as if nothing happened without any notification to anyone of what happened till they got caught by Indian Coast Guards.
G_B_ Posted March 25, 2013 Posted March 25, 2013 Manslaughter typically is when it is accidental killing. When you are a trained military person and you fire at someone' date=' what do you think is going to happen? These guys assumed them to be pirates with no evidence to indiate they were threatened, decided to fire and kill them, then proceeded as if nothing happened without any notification to anyone of what happened till they got caught by Indian Coast Guards.[/quote'] manslaughter also involves self defense. The fact is there was no motive (financial or otherwise) for the marines to kill the fisherman. They did not gain anything apart from what they thought was self protection (from supposed pirates). In no way is this homicide. The marines were there to guard the ship. In this case (the fisherman) the issue would be of voluntary manslaughter to what the marines will say was provocation from the fisherman (who they thought to be pirates). By my understanding the marines should get 5-6 years. Murder is not going to hold up in any court. Maybe rather than the actual marines who shot the fisherman we need to ensure who told them to carry out the order. After all from what i have read these guys are just low level foot soldiers.
Crookbond Posted January 16, 2014 Posted January 16, 2014 Italian marines ask India court to drop murder case http://www.livemint.com/Politics/JDG5E45RXWigesk4VdtRxK/Italian-marines-ask-India-court-to-drop-murder-case.html New Delhi: Two Italian marines appealed to India’s top court on Wednesday for murder charges against them to be dropped, citing extensive delays in starting any trial, legal documents showed. Lawyers for Massimiliano Latorre and Salvatore Girone filed a petition in the Supreme Court requesting that the case be dismissed so they can return to Italy because of the “failure of (the Indian) government to file a report for almost a yearâ€. The petition, a copy of which has been seen by AFP, is the latest twist in a case which dates back to February 2012 and sparked a diplomatic row between the two countries. India’s National Investigation Agency has filed preliminary charges of murder and attempted murder against the marines for allegedly shooting dead two fishermen off the southern coast of Kerala. But formal charges have not been laid against the pair and the Italian government is concerned a trial would get bogged down in India’s slow legal system. Citing the delay, the petition requests the court to “close the right of the government to file a charge sheet†and “permit the marines to travel to Italyâ€. The marines were guarding an Italian oil tanker in February 2012 when they opened fire on a fishing boat and two fishermen were killed. The marines say they mistook the fishing boat for a pirate vessel. They were allowed to go home to vote in elections and returned to India for trial in March last year. Rome initially refused to send them back to India, triggering a bitter diplomatic stand-off between the two countries. Italy had insisted the pair should be prosecuted in their home country because it said the shootings involved an Italian-flagged vessel in international waters. India says the killings took place in waters under its jurisdiction. India, which uses the death penalty in what it says are the “rarest of rare casesâ€, has assured Italy that the two men would not face execution if found guilty. The return of the two marines to India caused huge controversy in Rome and prompted Italy’s foreign minister to resign in protest. India told Italy in April last year that preparations to set up a special court to try the pair were at an “advanced stageâ€. If only, half of the energy invested in Khobragade was put in here - the govt could have saved the "dignity of the nation".
Crookbond Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 PTI_News: Home Ministry revises sanction given to prosecute two Italian marines in Kerala fishermen case. Clause on death penalty dropped.
CSK Fan Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 There was a lot of pressure from Italy and EU http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/italian-marines-case-may-impact-ties-with-india-eu/article5633723.ece But anyways, I have never seen death invoked in such cases in India
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