surajmal Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 P.S; Can we please spare the Indian army, the ONE institution in India that actually has at least some semblance of credibility and self-worth from all the mud-slinging? Please! I do respect the Army. That doesn't mean some of the higher ups aren't totally in bed with the MOD. And since you didn't respond to my query, I can assume you know jack all regarding Kargil? Thanks. My man, your fellow congressi-hater has riden to the rescue. Like he so elegantly explains in the post below, the 1962 Indo-China war was a total Indian army eff-up. The then Congressi govt has got nothing to do with it. After all, since when do politicians fight at the border? Reaching... are we?
Ram Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 I do respect the Army. That doesn't mean some of the higher ups aren't totally in bed with the MOD. And since you didn't respond to my query, I can assume you know jack all regarding Kargil? Thanks. Kargil was an intelligence failure AND a military failure. But above all, it was a failure of political leadership. We elect our leaders, not our military. Our elected representatives are ultimately responsible for our security. Even as the scumbag Musharraf was busy plotting the Kargil invasion, our then PM Vajpayee was exchanging warm hugs with Nawaz Sharif on the Wagah Border. Go figure! If you didnt know this basic concept, then your double-doctorate from Harvard on the Kargil War isnt of much use, I am afraid.
surajmal Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 Kargil was an intelligence failure AND a military failure. But above all, it was a failure of political leadership. We elect our leaders, not our military. Our elected representatives are ultimately responsible for our security. If you didnt know this basic concept, then your double-doctorate from Harvard on the Kargil War isnt of much use, I am afraid. Check who is responsible for the intelligence failure. And kindly explain, how is it a political failure when India has an eternal defensive posture towards its enemies? Did BJP not acquire the lost land back? (which your beloved congress clearly failed to do in 62). Even as the scumbag Musharraf was busy plotting the Kargil invasion, our then PM Vajpayee was exchanging warm hugs with Nawaz Sharif on the Wagah Border. Go figure! You mean like MMS for the last 10 years? And isn't that what you lefties liked about ABV? That he was willing to sit down and talk with the other side. Moving goalposts isn't doing you any help.
Ram Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 Check who is responsible for the intelligence failure. And kindly explain' date=' how is it a political failure when India has an eternal defensive posture towards its enemies? [/quote'] Yes, if you ignore the inconvenient fact that both the military and the intelligence agencies work for our govt, which should hold them accountable to executing their responsibilities in an excellent way, I agree, Kargil was an all out failure of JUST the military and intelligence. Have you ever heard of the concept of the 'Responsible Party'? You were right about one thing - Our netas cant go patrol our borders, but part of their job description is to hold the various branches of govt. accountable, WHICH DIDNT HAPPEN. When a BP oil rig in the gulf crashes and burns, its BP's CEO who lost his job. When a rogue JP Morgan trader makes an errant transaction that cost the company billions, its Jamie Dimon who faces the heat. Please dont tell me that you actually think the eventual outcome of the Kagil War was 'an accomplishment to be proud of'. What else do you think could have happened? That we simply let those intruders stay on? Or maybe gift them parts of Jammu and Rajasthan as well? As a country, there's nothing embarrassing and outrageous than having armed intruders and soldiers of a hostile country cross the border into OUR territory. You shouldnt be here today marveling about the fact that 'we acquired all lost land..'. The more pertinent question is - 'How the eff did this happen in the first place?'
Ram Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 You mean like MMS for the last 10 years? And isn't that what you lefties liked about ABV? That he was willing to sit down and talk with the other side. Making peace overtures is not a bad thing by itself. But being blissfully oblivious to a large scale military invasion being plotted and executed simultaneously, while making the peace overtures is a HUGE problem.
Clarke Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 This is a trivial discussion, its not like the Paki terrorists would spare us if our govt issued sane statements all the time. Kashmir govt: Congress allies. Indian govt: Congress & allies. The armed forces in J&K: on the orders of govt of Congress & allies. BJP's presence in any of the above: none
vayuu1 Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 @ Ram are u di**vijay,Kapil sibal,Manish tiwari(Teri kis kis ne mari) in disguise :hmmm:
Clarke Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 "The US and UN should also order drone strikes and coalition troops invasion, to target these terror camps, which are mentioned by the Indian minister of fanning Hindu terrorism," said Ehsan. :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:
surajmal Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 Yes, if you ignore the inconvenient fact that both the military and the intelligence agencies work for our govt, which should hold them accountable to executing their responsibilities in an excellent way, I agree, Kargil was an all out failure of JUST the military and intelligence. Have you ever heard of the concept of the 'Responsible Party'? You were right about one thing - Our netas cant go patrol our borders, but part of their job description is to hold the various branches of govt. accountable, WHICH DIDNT HAPPEN. Pakis started the war. So who is the 'Responsible Party'? You do know that in a defensive posture your military expenditures are multiple folds higher than otherwise? Of course you don't. So you expected a scenario where BJP-Indian Army without any intelligence network in Pakistan, with a piss poor budget, WHILE always seeking peace with rabid dogs should keep the borders shut air tight? You lefties never cease to amaze me. Please dont tell me that you actually think the eventual outcome of the Kagil War was 'an accomplishment to be proud of'. What else do you think could have happened? That we simply let those intruders stay on? Or maybe gift them parts of Jammu and Rajasthan as well? As a country, there's nothing embarrassing and outrageous than having armed intruders and soldiers of a hostile country cross the border into OUR territory. You shouldnt be here today marveling about the fact that 'we acquired all lost land..'. The more pertinent question is - 'How the eff did this happen in the first place?' Read the stories from late 90s. After Pokhran, entire world was against you. BJP did a damn fine job in getting the narrative in your favour all over the world while getting the land back. But no, accomplishment would be serving Siachen and Sir creek on a platter to Pakis in a faint hope of a promise that they won't kill anymore of our civilians. Just mind boggling. Making peace overtures is not a bad thing by itself. But being blissfully oblivious to a large scale military invasion being plotted and executed simultaneously, while making the peace overtures is a HUGE problem. No large scale invasion. Just Northern Light Infantry + Jihadis with arty support. It wasn't meant to be a large operation. Rather to **** around with the on going "piss" process and grab strategic piece of land in the midst. There hope was a quick ceasefire and a UN intervention followed by a status quo positioning. But you would know that.. Whatever. Waste of time.
Clarke Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 Yes, if you ignore the inconvenient fact that both the military and the intelligence agencies work for our govt, which should hold them accountable to executing their responsibilities in an excellent way, I agree, Kargil was an all out failure of JUST the military and intelligence. Have you ever heard of the concept of the 'Responsible Party'? You were right about one thing - Our netas cant go patrol our borders, but part of their job description is to hold the various branches of govt. accountable, WHICH DIDNT HAPPEN. When a BP oil rig in the gulf crashes and burns, its BP's CEO who lost his job. When a rogue JP Morgan trader makes an errant transaction that cost the company billions, its Jamie Dimon who faces the heat. But is the highlighted Obama's fault since the EPA & Dept of Commerce did not do their job ?
Ram Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 Pakis started the war. So who is the 'Responsible Party'? You do know that in a defensive posture your military expenditures are multiple folds higher than otherwise? Of course you don't. So you expected a scenario where BJP-Indian Army without any intelligence network in Pakistan' date=' with a piss poor budget, WHILE always seeking peace with rabid dogs should keep the borders shut air tight? You lefties never cease to amaze me.[/quote'] This portion of the post makes ZERO sense, but nevertheless, if I try hard to crystallize the essence of what you are saying, it seems like you are implying that the prevailing conditions then almost mandated a Pakistani invasion. Like we just stood at the border and waved them in with a grin. And clearly, you havent understood a word of what I meant by 'Responsible Party', so let me repeat one more time - Our elected govt. is ultimately responsible to to secure our nation's sovereignty and assure our security. If something goes wrong on those fronts, I am going hold my govt. accountable for that undesirable outcome. Being an Indian, showing the finger of blame on the Pakistanis for the Kargil fiasco is utterly useless and is like a home owner suing the thieves who invaded their property.
seedhi Posted January 24, 2013 Author Posted January 24, 2013 My man' date=' your fellow congressi-hater has riden to the rescue. Like he so elegantly explains in the post below, the 1962 Indo-China war was a total Indian army eff-up. [b']The then Congressi govt has got nothing to do with it. After all, since when do politicians fight at the border? :hysterical:You've got to be kidding me. A series of bad decisions at the political level led India to a humiliating defeat. For one, Nehru and his chamcha Krishna Menon simply neglected the armed forces and their modernization - they did not even have proper gear to fight. The ordanance factories were producing coffee makers. Secondly, read about the forward policy of Nehru - he basically pushed the unprepared army into a confrontation, which was bound to end in disaster as the army was simply unequipped. The very fact that it was a defeat makes it incomparable with any other conflict. In Kargil, the Indian army recovered all the peaks and thrashed the pakis badly after an initial setback. In 1962, after having lost Aksai Chin, Nehru made light of the loss and did not attempt to regain it - it is probably lost now forever. P.S; Can we please spare the Indian army, the ONE institution in India that actually has at least some semblance of credibility and self-worth from all the mud-slinging? Please! This thread was about the home minister's outlandish comments and you brought in the Kargil conflict - which was an intelligence failure - into the discussion.
surajmal Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 This portion of the post makes ZERO sense, but nevertheless, if I try hard to crystallize the essence of what you are saying, it seems like you are implying that the prevailing conditions then almost mandated a Pakistani invasion. Like we just stood at the border and waved them in with a grin. And clearly, you havent understood a word of what I meant by 'Responsible Party', so let me repeat one more time - Our elected govt. is ultimately responsible to to secure our nation's sovereignty and assure our security. If something goes wrong on those fronts, I am going hold my govt. accountable for that undesirable outcome. Being an Indian, showing the finger of blame on the Pakistanis for the Kargil fiasco is utterly useless and is like a home owner suing the thieves who invaded their property. Clearly, there must have been an alternative universe where your beloved BJP unleashed a spectacular charm offensive that wooed the entire world. But unfortunately, here's what actually happened back then - Our govt was asleep, the Pakistanis sneaked in, violated our sovereignty and seized our land. We were completely blind-sided, not having a clue of how the eff this happened. Once again, like most times, it was the men and women of our military who came to save our collective pride, sacrificing the lives o 398 of their own in the process. This again makes zero sense. Thats right, just a few thousand Pakistani insurgents and uniformed army personnel in Indian territory is no big deal. :hysterical: For you to brush aside the Kargil fiasco as some sort petulent Pakistani tactic to involve the UN, is, in your words, mind-boggling. Its like talking to Retard. I'm not gonna bother responding to it because you are clearly ignorant regarding Kargil (and army matters in general).
Ram Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 You've got to be kidding me. A series of bad decisions at the political level led India to a humiliating defeat. For one' date=' Nehru and his chamcha Krishna Menon simply neglected the armed forces and their modernization - they did not even have proper gear to fight. The ordanance factories were producing coffee makers. Secondly, read about the forward policy of Nehru - he basically pushed the unprepared army into a confrontation, which was bound to end in disaster as the army was simply unequipped. The very fact that it was a defeat makes it incomparable with any other conflict. In Kargil, the Indian army recovered all the peaks and thrashed the pakis badly after an initial setback. In 1962, after having lost Aksai Chin, Nehru made light of the loss and did not attempt to regain it - it is probably lost now forever.[/quote'] You could have spared all that effort required to type that out, if only your sarcasm detector was in working order. Do you actually think I will naive enough to give our govt a clean chit for the 62 war, when in the same thread, I am blaming the govt for the Kargil War. I obviously hold the Govt that was in power in 62 (which happened to be Congressi) accountable for our setbacks then, just like how I hold the govt. of 99 (which happened to be BJP) accountable for the calamity in 99. No, this thread is about you quoting a Pakistani terrorist to push your talking point. A new low in discourse, I might add.
Ram Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 Its like talking to Retard. I'm not gonna bother responding to it because you are clearly ignorant regarding Kargil (and army matters in general). Well, it takes a retard to identify another one. The pleasure in mine. And btw, dont forget to dust off your degree on 'army matters in general', the next time your sort your documents.
seedhi Posted January 24, 2013 Author Posted January 24, 2013 Do you actually think I will naive enough to give our govt a clean chit for the 62 war' date=' when in the same thread, I am blaming the govt for the Kargil War. [/quote']Possible, for a die-hard dynasty bhakt like you ..
Ram Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 Possible' date=' for a die-hard dynasty bhakt like you ..[/quote'] Yes, a dynasty bhakt who voted for the BJP in the general elections of 2004, the only elections that I ever got to vote, in India.
surajmal Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 Well, it takes a retard to identify another one. The pleasure in mine. And btw, dont forget to dust off your degree on 'army matters in general', the next time your sort your documents. Obama killed Osama, right? :hysterical:
seedhi Posted January 24, 2013 Author Posted January 24, 2013 Anyway, back to the topic. This is a cartoon on Shinde affair by Sudhir Tailang. Hopefully, he is not labeled anti-national for this.
Raghav_12 Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 Lets get this straight - You are using something terrorists in Pakistan said' date= by opportunistically capitalizing on a faux-pas by the Indian home minister, to discredit our home minister? Firstly, let Home minister admit that it was a faux-pas only then direction of debate can change. You admitiing that it was a faux-pas yet supporting him while he continue to be obdurate is akin to supporting a spoilt kid who is not ready to admit his open mistake yet need support from his parents. Instead of condemning home minister's irresponsible behaviour in strongest terms, you are coming up with these lame defenses.
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