How Modi conquered by raising the level of the game

[Khalpat]

Congress was not in power for a good 10 years and then these agencies were directly under the influence of their opponents. Still no evidence was found to convict them so I give that even greater credibility.

We already know about your and Seedhi 's view about riots happened in Gujarat in many other threads. Would like to know how do you view the speech given by Modi and what exactly is Rahul Gandhi's vision about India and its future. And also would want to see your comment about the awards won by Gujarat.

[Lurker]

We already know about your and Seedhi 's view about riots happened in Gujarat in many other threads. Would like to know how do you view the speech given by Modi and what exactly is Rahul Gandhi's vision about India and its future. And also would want to see your comment about the awards won by Gujarat.

It is a much ado about nothing. It is a simple speech that is being used by everyone because that is what an average Indian is more interested in these days, to pick sides on easy subject. If you ask me there are many more important topics that need to be discussed. For example, why is the Finance Ministry NOT giving Bihar special status?? Clearly Bihar has been lagging behind for 2 decades now. It is often used as favorite whipping boy of the nation. Last few years it has managed a very impressve turnaround and the number of awards won by the state may very well be comparable to Gujarat. And yet instead of supporting that growth it is being hampered by Congress led Govt. That, to me, is lot more important than retarded speech by Modi and Rahul. But that also means people will have to indulge in serious discussions, which is lot more harder to do than to defend, or attack, Modi.

[seedhi]

Congress was not in power for a good 10 years and then these agencies were directly under the influence of their opponents. Still no evidence was found to convict them so I give that even greater credibility.

Oh come on. From 84 to 89 it was Congress govt. Then for just one year it was VP Singh, under whom there was finally a bit of movement in justice. But then from December 1990 it was Chandrashekhar govt with support of Congress, and then from 1991 to 1996 it was PVN, then from 1996 to 1998 it was United Front supported by Congress. Even the so called activists who plead the Gujarat riot victims case agree that justice has been much more substantial in the Gujarat riots case than in the 1984 riots. The facts and figures on the convictions and prosecutions speak for themselves.

[The Outsider]

Oh come on. From 84 to 89 it was Congress govt. Then for just one year it was VP Singh, under whom there was finally a bit of movement in justice. But then from December 1990 it was Chandrashekhar govt with support of Congress, and then from 1991 to 1996 it was PVN, then from 1996 to 1998 it was United Front supported by Congress. Even the so called activists who plead the Gujarat riot victims case agree that justice has been much more substantial in the Gujarat riots case than in the 1984 riots. The facts and figures on the convictions and prosecutions speak for themselves.

Are you aware of the dynamics between VP Singh and Rajiv Gandhi? What about from '98 onward? The final judgment on the Tytler/Kumar case came out much later than after the Congress took power again. If their biggest political adversary cannot present evidence in the fair and impartial judicial system to prove them guilty, then I am afraid not even a neutral tribunal can outweigh it. Conclusion: Kumar/Tytler are more innocent than Modi because even adversaries with power over the investigating agencies could not present a case. Khalpat, will reply to your post a bit later.

[Khalpat]

If you ask me there are many more important topics that need to be discussed. For example, why is the Finance Ministry NOT giving Bihar special status?? Clearly Bihar has been lagging behind for 2 decades now. It is often used as favorite whipping boy of the nation. Last few years it has managed a very impressve turnaround and the number of awards won by the state may very well be comparable to Gujarat. And yet instead of supporting that growth it is being hampered by Congress led Govt.

I sir agree with you on this part having said that Tuhu lala Modiya ke bhula gayila aa Nitishwa ke promote kar tara. Chal Mardwan Nitishwa ke alge thread bana unha discuss karal jaayi.

[gs]

Am pretty sure a 14 year old Rahul Gandhi is the culprit we've been looking for all these years for the '84 riots. Or maybe a 13 year old Priyanka? Or Sonia Gandhi who was so deeply involved in politics in '84? Or maybe Rabbit Vadra?

The "high command" and the usual coterie of party seniors involve a lot of people who actively supported '84 riots. Thecurrent crop of Gandhi family may not be directly involved, but they still run under the Congress banner. A good analogy would be Hitler's kid running for election under the Nazi party banner with Himmler and Co as mentors. It was not the kid who gassed the jews right? So its ok to vote for him and bring the Nazi party to power again?

[gs]

We had examples of Central Govt 'looking at the other way' along with many state govts. when few terrorists killed Indira Gandhi..while innocent people were burned and butchered all over the country. I grew up in MP and in areas like Chhindwara (Kamalnath's constituency) Sikhs were meticulously eliminated. Many Sikhs vanished overnight... Don't talk about retards.. You just've to look at yourself in mirror.. It was a systematic pogrom all over India.. And nothing has ever been done on it ever. Atleast in Gujarat the investigations have been going on and many people have been prosecuted. The current Gandhi family has blood in their hands including many of it's top leaders. I hope if any opposition party comes in power, they open all the rioting cases against these Kongis which've been brushed under the carpet for so many years..

Its the Kaangress bhakths who are retards. 60+ years on, they still refuse to learn like the retards that they are. Exactly! Why not use the same yardstick to measure both parties?!?

[seedhi]

Are you aware of the dynamics between VP Singh and Rajiv Gandhi? What about from '98 onward? The final judgment on the Tytler/Kumar case came out much later than after the Congress took power again. If their biggest political adversary cannot present evidence in the fair and impartial judicial system to prove them guilty, then I am afraid not even a neutral tribunal can outweigh it.

The passage of 14 years had led to significant erosion of evidence. Secondly, there was no "judgment" on Tytler as he was not tried. The CBI closed his case in 2007 when the Congress was in power, but it was reopened by the magistrate. This is the timeline from the wiki:

India's Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) closed all cases against Jagdish Tytler in November 2007. On 18 December 2007, Additional Chief Metropolitan Magistrate of Delhi court, Sanjeev Jain, who had earlier dismissed the case after CBI submitted a misleading report in his court, ordered India's Central Bureau of Investigation to reopen cases relating to 1984 anti-Sikh pogroms against Jagdish Tytler.[49] In December 2008, a two-member CBI team was sent to New York to record the statements of two eyewitnesses, Jasbir Singh and Surinder Singh. The two witnesses have stated that they saw Jagdish Tytler lead a mob during the pogroms, but did not want to come to India as they feared for their security.[50] They also blamed the CBI for not conducting a fair trial and accused it of protecting Tytler.

Conclusion: Kumar/Tytler are more innocent than Modi because even adversaries with power over the investigating agencies could not present a case. Khalpat, will reply to your post a bit later.

No one is more or less innocent, at least legally. I was talking about the credibility of the investigation process. The SIT actually has a track record of delivering justice in the Gujarat riots. The CBI has no such track record. Let me also add that the SIT in case of Gujarat riots was formed in 2007 or so. So the CBI (controlled by Congress from 2004) could have nailed Modi before that. It can even do so now if it wanted to. If there was any shred of evidence against Modi the Central govt would have used the CBI against him.

[seedhi]

I dont want to get personal you, L'Etranger. But you have claimed that you heard an IAS officer in Gujarat tell you about Modi's complicity in the riots. I have to remind you that under Indian law you are constrained to present this evidence in the court via an affidavit. Even if you are a US citizen I am sure there is some statute in US law also for this purpose. On a different (and a more trivial) level, your inaction opens you up to the accusation of hypocrisy.

[Lurker]

I sir agree with you on this part having said that Tuhu lala Modiya ke bhula gayila aa Nitishwa ke promote kar tara. Chal Mardwan Nitishwa ke alge thread bana unha discuss karal jaayi.

:clap::clap: Bhojpuri zindabad. Rauwa Bhojpuri baran?? Nitish Kumar is doing lot better, and more, than Modi. It is just certain Indian, and Indian media's, obsession with Modi that seems to make their life complete. Only the other day Nitish Kumar mentioned chance of opening a new Atomic Research Center in Bihar. Still pending proposal, but I hope it works. For the longest time many of our so called "fellow citizens" have not shied away from taking a potshot at Bihar. Now when it is turning things around they are sleeping lol. I wish Bihar received special status so it can double up the growth. And frankly if Bihar grows it will automatically pull atleast Jharkhand and Eastern UP (Mughalsarai, Azamargarh to Benaras area). That belt gives me more hope than Bengal, Orissa and of course UP. But of course I am biased :winky: But let us get back to Modi ka bhaasan. :giggle:

[Desi Cartman]

Its an understanding between all political parties to save their big name netas from any convictions. From Rajiv Gandhi to PMN and then Maywati to Modi, no one ever gets convicted. Did you guys miss that Nitin Gadhkari did all his No2 business with the help of congress and its allies in Maharashtra. So how did that happen ? Bottom line is that no party has balls to convict any big name neta kyonke hamam mein sab nangay hain

[dial_100]

It is a much ado about nothing. It is a simple speech that is being used by everyone because that is what an average Indian is more interested in these days, to pick sides on easy subject. If you ask me there are many more important topics that need to be discussed. For example, why is the Finance Ministry NOT giving Bihar special status?? Clearly Bihar has been lagging behind for 2 decades now. It is often used as favorite whipping boy of the nation. Last few years it has managed a very impressve turnaround and the number of awards won by the state may very well be comparable to Gujarat. And yet instead of supporting that growth it is being hampered by Congress led Govt. That, to me, is lot more important than retarded speech by Modi and Rahul. But that also means people will have to indulge in serious discussions, which is lot more harder to do than to defend, or attack, Modi.

I agree. Central Govt has to give special status to bihar. Its a 3rd largest state in the country and so so far behind. Like its economy is compared to Mah economy of 80s. I had heard it in some TV discussion that 1 in every 5-6 poor people is live in bihar. Literacy rate is still very low and way behind the national average. Very poor with women empowerment. Until human development is achieved, there is no way Bihar can catch up with top 5 state. Pretty much in all the indicators of development Bihar was in the lower 3-4 states which is very sad. I dont think its Nitish's fault but the guy is doing exceptional job of handling the state govt. But for Bihars economy to grow and their PC gdp to grow they need advancement in the human development factors in this modern era. I think its fair to say that NDA must give Bihar its share which congress couldnÃÕ do in last few decades if they come to power.

[Lurker]

I agree. Central Govt has to give special status to bihar. Its a 3rd largest state in the country and so so far behind. Like its economy is compared to Mah economy of 80s. I had heard it in some TV discussion that 1 in every 5-6 poor people is live in bihar. Literacy rate is still very low and way behind the national average. Very poor with women empowerment. Until human development is achieved, there is no way Bihar can catch up with top 5 state. Pretty much in all the indicators of development Bihar was in the lower 3-4 states which is very sad. I dont think its Nitish's fault but the guy is doing exceptional job of handling the state govt. But for Bihars economy to grow and their PC gdp to grow they need advancement in the human development factors in this modern era. I think its fair to say that NDA must give Bihar its share which congress couldnÃÕ do in last few decades if they come to power.

The fair share argument is interesting because increasingly as a nation, and perhaps world, we are getting polarized enough to not look at fellow citizen in the natural sharing way. For example, one of the National Policy that affected adversly Bihar-Bengal-Orissa in late 50s/60s was the Mineral subsidy plan of TT Krishnamachari. In a nutshell minerals from Bihar-Bengal-Orissa were moved out to Southern states at a huge subsidy to support the growth of infrastructure down South. This meant that when coal landed in Vizag it was the same price as in Dhanbad. Imagine that! The price of oil in India to be same as in Middle East. Wont that be something :winky: Unfortunately for Eastern block then, and fortunately for other states, the Regional chauvinism was not that extreme back then and so the "fair share" was not even debated. To the extent that I wont be surprised if many Indians do not even know of this whole plan (*scam) of TTK. By the by giving special status will do many things, but perhaps one of the most important things would be that it would stop migration to other parts of the country. And that itself would be worth its weight. As a nation we need to start thinking that the cosmopolitan towns, and the rich states, are NOT going to be able to support every migrant and forever.

[Lurker]

Bihar subsidised post-Independence industrialisation by allowing its mineral resources to be taken outside the state through freight-equalisation. This not only retarded its industrialisation, but also subsidised the transportation of minerals to other states. According to one estimate, Bihar lost Rs 1,12,812 crore just through the freight-equalisation of steel. Before Independence, the Tata group decided to invest in Bihar because of its natural advantage of minerals. This was reversed after Independence.

http://m.indianexpress.com/news/why-bihar-is-special/1032199/ But yes, lets talk about a bunch of SRCC students singing peans to Modi instead :giggle:

[asterix]

http://m.indianexpress.com/news/why-bihar-is-special/1032199/ But yes, lets talk about a bunch of SRCC students singing peans to Modi instead :giggle:

We are singing peans of Sushil Modi only... :dontknow: under whose able deputy chief ministership Bihar has transformed in such a way. Good that Nitish learnt a lot from this Modi if not from that Modi... :P: Really proud of NDA rule in Bihar.... Way to go...

[seedhi]

http://m.indianexpress.com/news/why-bihar-is-special/1032199/ But yes, lets talk about a bunch of SRCC students singing peans to Modi instead :giggle:

If Bihar gets special status based on this, then so would other states - Jharkhand, Orissa etc. Any government will have a very hard time convincing other states to agree to this special status (depending on what it entails). Special status for Bihar is IMO not going to do much unless you have a climate for investment and setting up industries. Unfortunately, Nitish Kumar has basically rejected industrialization as a way forward. An agrarian economy is not going to support such a huge population.

[Lurker]

If Bihar gets special status based on this' date= then so would other states - Jharkhand, Orissa etc. Any government will have a very hard time convincing other states to agree to this special status (depending on what it entails).

What kind of weird logic is that? Bihar is asking for special package not only because it needs to but because it needs to develop at a very brisk rate. Its performance in last few years have been amongst the best in the country. Its growth has been noted as best by Planning Commission. Why would other states have a problem with that? And if they do, why is that Bihar's problem?? Bihariyon ne sabka theka lekar rekha hai kya bandhu?

Special status for Bihar is IMO not going to do much unless you have a climate for investment and setting up industries. Unfortunately, Nitish Kumar has basically rejected industrialization as a way forward. An agrarian economy is not going to support such a huge population.

Set up industries to do what? Ghanta? Aise hi kuch bhi bol dete ho. I am actually pretty excited that Nitish Kumar is focussing on what is core strength of Bihar - namely very fertile land that can generate multiple crops in the same year, tourism that is perhaps unparalleled in the nation, infrastructure and roads for being the gateway to East and North. Instead of setting up a random ISRO in Jehanabad. And far as I can think of, I dont quite see how a Private investor will spend billions in Bihar when everything else namely local economy, infrastructure, local market etc are not strong enough. Full marks to Nitish Kumar for keeping it real, as Gen X says.

[seedhi]

What kind of weird logic is that? Bihar is asking for special package not only because it needs to but because it needs to develop at a very brisk rate. Its performance in last few years have been amongst the best in the country. Its growth has been noted as best by Planning Commission. Why would other states have a problem with that? And if they do, why is that Bihar's problem?? Bihariyon ne sabka theka lekar rekha hai kya bandhu?

Paisa ped pe nahin na ugta hai. Someone has to pay for it. I am personally for some sort of package to Bihar. I am just stating that this will be opposed by other states who will also demand the same. I am also in support of Nitish Kumar's aggressive policy of putting forth Bihar's demands. I just wonder what sort of useless leaders Bihar had earlier .. just as an example they could not get even one IIT, IIM or any top class educational institute set up in Bihar. What an irony given Bihar's history, size of population etc.

Set up industries to do what? Ghanta? Aise hi kuch bhi bol dete ho. I am actually pretty excited that Nitish Kumar is focussing on what is core strength of Bihar - namely very fertile land that can generate multiple crops in the same year, tourism that is perhaps unparalleled in the nation, infrastructure and roads for being the gateway to East and North. Instead of setting up a random ISRO in Jehanabad. And far as I can think of, I dont quite see how a Private investor will spend billions in Bihar when everything else namely local economy, infrastructure, local market etc are not strong enough. Full marks to Nitish Kumar for keeping it real, as Gen X says.

I just think agriculture will not be able to support the huge population. At some point you need capital investment to set up industries. Bihar has human resource in abundance and that has to be utilized optimally. It ought to be a mixture of rural and industrial.

[The Outsider]

The passage of 14 years had led to significant erosion of evidence. Secondly, there was no "judgment" on Tytler as he was not tried. The CBI closed his case in 2007 when the Congress was in power, but it was reopened by the magistrate. This is the timeline from the wiki: No one is more or less innocent, at least legally. I was talking about the credibility of the investigation process. The SIT actually has a track record of delivering justice in the Gujarat riots. The CBI has no such track record. Let me also add that the SIT in case of Gujarat riots was formed in 2007 or so. So the CBI (controlled by Congress from 2004) could have nailed Modi before that. It can even do so now if it wanted to. If there was any shred of evidence against Modi the Central govt would have used the CBI against him.

Before we go further we need to establish the parameters of the discussion - so here is an invitation on those lines. Let's get a benchmark here - do you think Tytler and Kumar are innocent? Let's start the discussion from there.

[seedhi]

Before we go further we need to establish the parameters of the discussion - so here is an invitation on those lines. Let's get a benchmark here - do you think Tytler and Kumar are innocent? Let's start the discussion from there.

My focus is not on a personal judgment of innocence and guilt. It is on the quality of investigation that has gone into the allegations. In the case of Tytler and in general for the 1984 riots, the cases were not pursued seriously at all for a long time. And the investigating authority was not independent. I can only contrast this with the Gujarat situation where an independent SC monitored body has prosecuted several cases and convicted dozens of individuals, including an ex-minister. The same body examined a list of mostly vague allegations against N. Modi, interrogated him for 9 hours, examined dozens upon dozens of witnesses, cell phone records and produced a comprehensive report exonerating him. Now everyone is free to form their personal opinion of Modi's guilt, but my expectation would be that you go through that report and base your opinion on facts rather than feeling.