Hail Dale - It's time to acknowledge that Steyn is among the all-time great fast bowlers

[Old guy]

Its not that he was always bowling 140+, its only the odd one that he bowled at high 130s to 140s that did the trick. I mentioned it earlier also- More than speed his ability to hide the ball, thus not allowing the batsman to decipher which way it will go works for him. It goes same with zaheer. But 135+ speed is a must.

just clear this thing for last time 135+ speed for being effective or for getting reverse ? rest i agree with completely

[Crookbond]

As i said getting Reverse swing is not a skill. if your length is fuller and if you are pacy' date=' and pitch is abrasive you will get Reverse swing at some point. [b']But taking wickets through reverse swing requires skill and experience, that is what Steyn has. Like setting up the batsman, not allowing batsman to see the shiny side, great control along pace, that is pure skill and expertise. Not all have them. That makes steyn special

That's just obvious. You can replace reverse swing by normal swing there too. That was the whole point - Steyn is able to get wickets via reverse swing. One point you forgot to mention was taking the ball away viz. not all balls have to be reversed which lead to caught behinds. Zaheer Khan at one point of time was just magnificent with this.

[rkt.india]

Fair enough. Did all SA bowlers reverse the ball?

Out of three, Steyn and Parnell did. Parnell cleaned up Marsh. Morkel doesnt bowl right length for reverse.

[rkt.india]

Reverse swing can be attained at a slow pace too.

[Cricket_Hacker]

i have seen Andrew Hall reverse the ball @130 kmph Darren gough did it even when he lost his pace

[rkt.india]

That's just obvious. You can replace reverse swing by normal swing there too. That was the whole point - Steyn is able to get wickets via reverse swing. One point you forgot to mention was taking the ball away viz. not all balls have to be reversed which lead to caught behinds. Zaheer Khan at one point of time was just magnificent with this.

How can you get normal swing with old ball. It can happen in helpful condition like England but not even bowler will know when it is reversing when it is normal swing. Reverse swing is not just about bringing the ball back in. You can also bowl away swingers with old bowl using reverse swing by changing the sides.

[Insidious]

just clear this thing for last time 135+ speed for being effective or for getting reverse ? rest i agree with completely

135+ is to make it effective, at 130+ does get reverse but very minimal, if you want late swing you need to be 135+, the more speed the more is the late swing.

[Old guy]

135+ is to make it effective' date=' at 130+ does get reverse but very minimal, if you want late swing you need to be 135+, the more speed the more is the late swing.[/quote'] i am not sure about late part most guys who dip it late have round arm action rkt probably knows more about this but i am jsut sharing what i have noticed and again not saying that it is correct

[Insidious]

i have seen Andrew Hall reverse the ball @130 kmph Darren gough did it even when he lost his pace

You are confused, You can reverse it at 130,but it will not affect any quality batsman because the ball will swing pretty early, which gives enough time for batsman to judge. For reversing the ball late, you have to be bowling at 85mph atleast.

[Insidious]

i am not sure about late part most guys who dip it late have round arm action rkt probably knows more about this but i am jsut sharing what i have noticed and again not saying that it is correct

Shami was getting the ball to dip in late against windies, was he round-armish? What I know you need more speed for late swing. But you might be right, having round arm action also helps.

[Old guy]

Shami was getting the ball to dip in late against windies' date=' was he round-armish? What I know you need more speed for late swing. But you might be right, having round arm action also helps.[/quote'] more than late swing shami was just bowling little shorter and moving it both ways which made it difficult real late swing is what i saw with umesh against england in Ahmadabad test or what waqar-wasim use to bowl but again i might be wrong i mostly missed bowling of their in prime late swing i do not know how it works but dipping it in mainly is because of action wasim akram has said this many times ..that is one thing i am sure about rest you guys probably know more or maybe ball does not swings late just looks like that because of speed i cannot be sure about it if you guys are then please share the reason as i only reason i am discussing here is learn more about this rather than proving any one wrong.

[Insidious]

No not all are short of length. check this-

48.4 137.6 kph, he's knocked another one over! Shami has eight in the Test. He bowled it full and reverse swung the ball back into Shillingford, who was half forward as he drove at the ball with a gap between bat and pad. Shami went through that gap and off stump took a hit this time 152/7 48.5 from Mohammed Shami, that's swung on to the boot, a full and reverse-swinging delivery, and the Indians love it, they are up in arms over the lbw appeal but the umpire says not out. That's a very close shout indeed. But has Permaul been run out? He was dozy in getting back to the crease, he was looking at the umpire having taken a couple of steps out, waiting for the lbw decision. Dhoni was appealing but he was alert enough to spot Permaul out of his ground and his underarm throw hit the stumps direct 152/8 54.1 135.2 kph, Shami has ended the game and completed his five for! He burst through Cottrell's defences with a full ball that jagged back tremendously through the gap between bat and pad to flatten middle stump. India have won by an innings and Shami has nine in the Test 168/10

The ball to permaul was a booming reverswinging yorker almost younisque, and he was plumb lbw, but not given, then he was done by smart work of Dhoni

[Old guy]

No not all are short of length. check this- The ball to permaul was a booming reverswinging yorker almost younisque, and he was plumb lbw, but not given, then he was done by smart work of Dhoni

but those deliveries did swung from hand that match was long time ago so i do not honestly remember everything but major thing i took from his bowling was his length he used for reverse swing and his ability to swing ball away which is rare with reverse also i do not like to judge when ball start swinging from tv as if some one bowls wide it might look like it swung from start but in difficult angle it might look like it swung late from example inswing from wide of crease while out swing from close to stump might look like it swung late from tv..

[Old guy]

i just do not think there is any evidence that only pace leads to late reverse swing some bowlers do swing the ball late like steyn but it cannot be just pace because likes of johnson cannot do it (i am talking about normal swing ) why would it be nay different for reverse ?

[rkt.india]

Round armish action is The best for reverse.

[Insidious]

but those deliveries did swung from hand that match was long time ago so i do not honestly remember everything but major thing i took from his bowling was his length he used for reverse swing and his ability to swing ball away which is rare with reverse also i do not like to judge when ball start swinging from tv as if some one bowls wide it might look like it swung from start but in difficult angle it might look like it swung late from example inswing from wide of crease while out swing from close to stump might look like it swung late from tv..

Yes , It is important to swung the ball away, to set the batsman for that indipper. It can be done by switching the shiny part. Anderson is master of that. You can watch shami's performane, or highlights of that match in you tube, he was swinging it late.

[Old guy]

Yes ' date=' It is important to swung the ball away, to set the batsman for that indipper. It can be done by switching the shiny part. Anderson is master of that. You can watch shami's performane, or highlights of that match in you tube, he was swinging it late.[/quote'] i will take your word but still you cannot be 100 percent sure that late swing is because of pace can you ?

[Insidious]

i just do not think there is any evidence that only pace leads to late reverse swing some bowlers do swing the ball late like steyn but it cannot be just pace because likes of johnson cannot do it (i am talking about normal swing ) why would it be nay different for reverse ?

First of all johnson natural length is short and not full. Its the odd one which he bowl full and target the stump. He does get reverse swing but not as much as steyn. It also depends upon how you maintain the ball. Historically pakistan, and now-a-days, England and Southafrica are best in this respect. For australia, Harris, pattinson, and siddle does get reverse swing because their natural length is fuller, but not as much as steyn or Anderson because they don't have the fielders which are skilled enough in maintaining the ball as their counterparts. And yes fromRound arm action you get maximum reverse swing

[Insidious]

@sabby just check this article, how maintaining the ball play a huge part, for getting those booming reverse swing. pace is vital but not the lone factor http://www.espncricinfo.com/england-v-india-2014/content/story/760409.html

[Old guy]

thanks i will :)