Why Tendulkar must retire now

[carnish]

WI were restricted to a score lower than 180 while chasing, 4 times in the last 4 years of world cup 1983. While no team ever scored more than 300 against Aus while batting 2nd before 2005. But still chasing 360 was easy pizzy, bowlers did a great job restricting Aus to 359 .. Sachin choked and India lost.

There is a difference between chasing and defending. If ICFers given a choice to put their whole savings on either defending 183 or chasing 360, I know every single person would put money on defending 183. 183 is even big score, people would put money even to defend 130-140 than chasing 360. Though it is different thing, that it won't be admitted by people over here. India has defended 125 from my memory in ODI cricket against a fairly strong WI team, but how many times we have chased 360. Nobody is honesty going to believe that defending 183 in WC final was as difficult task as chasing 360 against same level of teams.

Its not about how difficult either was. India capitulated while chasing with only Sehwag giving some kind of a fight. Had the whole team showed some grit including Sachin, we could have atleast given a fight.

[Lurker]

There is a difference between chasing and defending. If ICFers given a choice to put their whole savings on either defending 183 or chasing 360' date= I know every single person would put money on defending 183. 183 is still a big score, people would put money even to defend 130-140 than chasing 360. Though it is different thing, that it won't be admitted by people over here. India has defended 125 from my memory in ODI cricket against a fairly strong WI team, but how many times we have chased 360. Nobody is honesty going to believe that defending 183 in WC final was as difficult task as chasing 360 against same level of teams.

Sure. Keep smoking what you are :giggle::giggle:

[The Outsider]

Sure. Keep smoking what you are :giggle::giggle:

Nahin yaar, it's not about smoking. I have criticized Tendulkar for his failures in the WC finals, but take an objective assessment. It's not about how India versus West Indies or India versus Australia started off with. At that time I am sure more money would be put on India winning in '03. However, you've got to accept the basic dynamics of cricket that a bowling side has more chances to come back from than a batting side from the situation that was there at half time. 3-4 wicket giving mistakes while batting are worse than even 4-5 overs costing 50 runs. Surely you agree with that? That Tendulkar was not able to put that kind of pressure on Australia is a different aspect and on that I have criticized him, but against an all beating side like West Indies of '83 or Australia of '03 I would always pick '83 because 3-4 mistakes in the former from the champion team give me a chance but even after 3-4 overs of trash bowling the latter has the upper hand.

[Lurker]

Nahin yaar, it's not about smoking. I have criticized Tendulkar for his failures in the WC finals, but take an objective assessment. It's not about how India versus West Indies or India versus Australia started off with. At that time I am sure more money would be put on India winning in '03. However, you've got to accept the basic dynamics of cricket that a bowling side has more chances to come back from than a batting side from the situation that was there at half time. 3-4 wicket giving mistakes while batting are worse than even 4-5 overs costing 50 runs. Surely you agree with that? That Tendulkar was not able to put that kind of pressure on Australia is a different aspect and on that I have criticized him, but against an all beating side like West Indies of '83 or Australia of '03 I would always pick '83 because 3-4 mistakes in the former from the champion team give me a chance but even after 3-4 overs of trash bowling the latter has the upper hand.

Obviously it is NEVER going to be apple to apple. Different era, different players, different size of ground and cricketing bats yada yada. The point is Sachin fans, not you obviously, are absolute-ist in a way. Nothing sort of a full surrender works. This is not a Facebook "like" battle where you have 83 WC finals with 1000 likes and 2003 with 1005 likes and bingo 2003 wins!!! It is a simple line - 83 WC finals was a pressure cooker situation against the best team in the world and we won. 2003 WC finals was a pressure situation against the best team in the world and we sucked. Case closed. Lets move on :cantstop:

[The Outsider]

Obviously it is NEVER going to be apple to apple. Different era, different players, different size of ground and cricketing bats yada yada. The point is Sachin fans, not you obviously, are absolute-ist in a way. Nothing sort of a full surrender works. This is not a Facebook "like" battle where you have 83 WC finals with 1000 likes and 2003 with 1005 likes and bingo 2003 wins!!! It is a simple line - 83 WC finals was a pressure cooker situation against the best team in the world and we won. 2003 WC finals was a pressure situation against the best team in the world and we sucked. Case closed. Lets move on :cantstop:

Well: 1. I am not a Sachin fanboy. In fact you can find hundreds of posts of mine criticizing him. 2. I never meant it to be a Facebook battle. I was exploring the question of whether being underdogs is beneficial chasing a huge target or defending a small target. 3. Your simple line is as simple as those who claim Tendulkar to be the best batsman or Imran to be the best all rounder based on stats. That's not consistent with you. I was trying to explore the idea outlined in point 2 above, but if you choose to make it a case closed, I win you lose argument up to you.

[Bumper]

Not sure how the Tendulkar's retirement discussion meandered into a discussion on WC finals & Tendulkar's choke-dy-chokes. You dont need statistics to confirm that Tendulkar chokes more often than not on big occassions. This is more true in Test cricket than in ODIs. As for the target in 2003 finals, Jayasuriya and Sangakarra were faced with similar odds (in fact stiffer task) in 2007 finals & they fought admirably. In fact, when they were around, SL was in with a real chance of pulling it off. I'd infact rate the 2007 Aussie team a notch higher than the 2003 team. But i'd still cut the 2003 Tendulkar some slack. In 2011 though, he had no excuse to fail. Besides WC finals, Tendulkar has failed in so many finals (i've lost count) in the past decade. In fact, Tendulkar, Ganguly and Dravid collectively failed for years together and its not until Dhoni took over we were able to right this wrong. Back to the retirement topic, Tendulkar operates like a mafia don. He knows he can do whatever he wants and will get away with it. The last years of his career is going to seriously hurt his legacy and his stats that he so dearly cherishes. Just two years ago, he could have finished as arguably the greatest batsman of the modern era. With the last two years of mediocrity and another year or so of it, he may end up with a below 50 average and a possible question over whether he would make it to the top 3 list of his own generation - what a humiliating finish for a batsman who was always talked of as the greatest since Bradman.

[Texan]

Back to the retirement topic, Tendulkar operates like a mafia don. He knows he can do whatever he wants and will get away with it. The last years of his career is going to seriously hurt his legacy and his stats that he so dearly cherishes. Just two years ago, he could have finished as arguably the greatest batsman of the modern era. With the last two years of mediocrity and another year or so of it, he may end up with a below 50 average and a possible question over whether he would make it to the top 3 list of his own generation.

You hit the nail on the head with that! That is exactly what is happening now. He knows he can get away with murder. He knows he can take his own sweet time deciding about when to retire. Not all great cricketers enjoy this luxury. Steve Waugh was pushed out of the Aussie team when he started aging. So also was Ricky Ponting. But Tendulkar continues to live a charmed life in the team. I agree with your assessment about his chokes as well.

[Texan]

Please remind me a better Sehwag ODI inning than CB series finals and both Sharajah desert storm innings.

:hmmmm2:

[Texan]

Yawn... Does tendulkar even matter anymore on a cricketing level? He's only in the team as a mascot thesedays, if he scores any runs its a bonus. In that case then yes it makes no sense to pick on the team mascot as he is not in the team to perform.

Sachin, the team mascot :cantstop:

[Texan]

This. That's why I rate Gilly so high. His average is in mid 30s but I would have him for must-win one-off games like big finals in my team. The guy always showed up for big games... played 3 WC finals and showed up every single time :hatsoff: I do remember India losing 9 straight finals under Ganguly's captaincy and things turned around with advent of Dhoni and India became one of the best teams while chasing once he showed up on the scene with a world record of 17 consecutive successful chases.

True. Dhoni's contributions to ODIs has been under-rated. We never had a wicket-keeper who could bat in the past. The best we had was Kirmani, who could scratch around for a few runs. But, nobody could bat like a front-line batsman. Without Dhoni, we would not have been able to achieve any of the ODI successes we have achieved of late. Tendulkar never had that kind of impact. Tendulkar was good at notching up individual records that didn't make much contribution to the team cause.

[harmuk]

Besides WC finals' date=' Tendulkar has failed in so many finals (i've [b']lost count) in the past decade. In fact, Tendulkar, Ganguly and Dravid collectively failed for years together and its not until Dhoni took over we were able to right this wrong.

As I noted above in one of the prior posts, they lost notoriously 17 finals under Ganguly. MSD corrected that flaw once RD and SG were kicked out of the One day side, even though they could still carry one passenger like Tendulkar in a big game and win, as they did in WC 2011 finals, thankfully.

[The Outsider]

Lol! At the notion that Sri Lanka ever had a chance to win the WC. You can bring in hazaar stats but Sri Lanka were finished by the first innings got over.

[Texan]

As for the WC finals' date=' he failed only once truly, in the other match he was chasing 360+.[/quote'] Wow, I didn't know this rule.... If target > 360, then all batsmen permitted to fail :hatsoff:

[harmuk]

And by the way the WC 2007 exit for India was an all-time low in its history (losing of all teams to BD enroute to elimination at the league stages itself), at which time RD, SG and SRT should have been history along with GC. But sadly that did not happen immediately.

[The Outsider]

And by the way the WC 2007 exit for India was an all-time low in its history (losing of all teams to BD enroute to elimination at the league stages itself)' date=' at which time [b']RD, SG and SRT should have been history along with GC. But sadly that did not happen immediately.

The best decision ever - all played an instrumental part in leading India to the number 1 position in test cricket.

[harmuk]

The best decision ever - all played an instrumental part in leading India to the number 1 position in test cricket.

I thought we were talking ODI cricket, which is what I meant anyway. I had no qualms in any of them continuing in Test cricket which is a different beast altogether. But Sachin is taking it to a new level hanging around in Tests too, which is good in a way as his average will drop to below 50 (minnow adjusted) for all the highhandedness, in clinging on to his spot.

[Laaloo]

The best decision ever - all played an instrumental part in leading India to the number 1 position in test cricket.

+ the fact that Sachin was one of the main contributors in the world cup after yuvi and Zaheer of course

[Shunya]

as someone mentioned...it doesnt even matter now that he plays or not...earlier it would been a treat to watch him play...or disappointment if he would have gotten out early... now its just normal...other players have become more valuable in our team since last few years... he can retire whenever he wants...

[The Outsider]

I thought we were talking ODI cricket' date= which is what I meant anyway. I had no qualms in any of them continuing in Test cricket which is a different beast altogether. But Sachin is taking it to a new level hanging around in Tests too, which is good in a way as his average will drop to below 50 (minnow adjusted) for all the highhandedness, in clinging on to his spot.

In ODI cricket, Dravid and Ganguly were dropped within a few months of the World Cup and Tendulkar was instrumental in playing a winning role in many subsequent triumphs.

[Raghav_12]

Sure. Keep smoking what you are :giggle::giggle:

Unfortunately adding smiley's doesn't strengthen your argument. Number posted very clearly that 183 was defended against WI 4 times in 4 years preceding to 83 final while against Australia, forget about 360, not even 300 was chased ever. I hope you understand the difference. But to you, every argument can be proved by adding couple of smiley's, so go ahead, stage is yours.