ganeshran Posted April 5, 2013 Posted April 5, 2013 Atheists should not forget that their kind have been responsible for some of the worst crimes in the 20th century. Remember Mao' date=' Stalin, Pol pot and Naxalites? Supposedly rational minds that were free of religious "prejudices" killed their own people like flies.[/quote'] This is the most ridiculous argument made against atheists and has been debunked multiple times. Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot didnt commit atrocities in the name of atheism. Their atheism had as much do with their actions as Christianity had to do with the actions of Christians in world war 2. However terrorism done by religious fanatics is not the same. An Islamic fundamentalist blowing himself up doesnt just happen to be a muslim, he does so in the name of Islam and in his mind uses religion to justify his act.
ganeshran Posted April 5, 2013 Posted April 5, 2013 thats the attitude of an atheist' date=' one who believes god doesnt exist and finds it necessary to demean those who do have faith.[/quote'] People are free to believe in unicorns and flying sphagetti monsters in the privacy of their homes but in the public sphere everything is (or should be) up for criticism. Politics, Sporting loyalties, public figures are freely criticized in today's world and there is no particular reason why religion should be accorded a pre-eminent position and deemed above any critical argument.
Muloghonto Posted April 5, 2013 Posted April 5, 2013 thats the attitude of an atheist' date=' one who believes god doesnt exist and finds it necessary to demean those who do have faith.[/quote'] I am not demeaning your God and your faith by saying it has no place in government and social regulation. That is common sense and basic human right to self determination. You have your faith, i dont care if you worship the Mongol Sky God, the Muslim desert God or a cowherder God. Keep it to yourself and dont let your unprovable beleifs impact others. That is the fundamental tenet of any free society and therefore, the declarations of the VHP is a step backwards and nothing more than yet another religious nutbar group trying to impose its hypothetical views on society.
Muloghonto Posted April 5, 2013 Posted April 5, 2013 BJP was in power for 6 years. Do religious minorities still exist today? Yes. Unlike the fear mongering of secularists' date=' BJP worked for the welfare of all Indians[/quote'] Which is why i dissed the RSS/VHP, not the BJP. Why are you bringing the BJP into this thread ?!
Muloghonto Posted April 5, 2013 Posted April 5, 2013 you may not care but that doesnt mean that your attitude should reflect the attitude of policymakers. otherwise' date=' how are you different from the people you criticize to be imposing their beliefs on another.[/quote'] Because my 'beleifs' are not a set of arbitary beleifs dictated upon by God/messenger of God/avatar of God, my 'beleifs' on what society should and should not be like is based on non-assumptive principles determined by consensus. That is how i am different from the legions of religious nutbars who want to impose their set of hypothetical morals and beleifs on human society.
FischerTal Posted April 5, 2013 Posted April 5, 2013 Which is why i dissed the RSS/VHP' date=' not the BJP. Why are you bringing the BJP into this thread ?![/quote'] Most BJP leaders come from the RSS
FischerTal Posted April 5, 2013 Posted April 5, 2013 Because my 'beleifs' are not a set of arbitary beleifs dictated upon by God/messenger of God/avatar of God, my 'beleifs' on what society should and should not be like is based on non-assumptive principles determined by consensus. That is how i am different from the legions of religious nutbars who want to impose their set of hypothetical morals and beleifs on human society. So then take the beef ban in Karnataka by BJP, whose cadre mostly come from the RSS. They exercised their legislative right to ban beef in Karnataka via consensus through a democratic process. Yet, most seculars were harping on a religious ideology being imposed.
FischerTal Posted April 5, 2013 Posted April 5, 2013 I am not demeaning your God and your faith by saying it has no place in government and social regulation. That is common sense and basic human right to self determination. You have your faith' date=' i dont care if you worship the Keep it to yourself and dont let your unprovable beleifs impact others. That is the fundamental tenet of any free society and therefore, the declarations of the VHP is a step backwards and nothing more than yet another religious nutbar group trying to impose its hypothetical views on society. thank you for showing your disdain towards theists.
FischerTal Posted April 5, 2013 Posted April 5, 2013 People are free to believe in unicorns and flying sphagetti monsters in the privacy of their homes but in the public sphere everything is (or should be) up for criticism. Politics, Sporting loyalties, public figures are freely criticized in today's world and there is no particular reason why religion should be accorded a pre-eminent position and deemed above any critical argument. who stopped you from criticizing religion? you do it freely and openly as much as you want. im arguing with sachinlara that his disdain for RSS is completely unwarranted as he sees it as religious nutbags, whereas i see it from a different perspective and im giving proof to him for that.
Muloghonto Posted April 5, 2013 Posted April 5, 2013 So then take the beef ban in Karnataka by BJP' date=' whose cadre mostly come from the RSS. They exercised their legislative right to ban beef in Karnataka via consensus through a democratic process. Yet, most seculars were harping on a religious ideology being imposed.[/quote'] Do not confuse majority with being right. Assumptive behaviour is assumptive behaviour. Just because you got majority, does not mean you are 'correct'- it still means you are imposing fictitious beleifs on others and just have enough numbers to do so. My point was, i believe in policy-making based on reason, logic and its cause and effects. Not because of religious sentiments, which is exactly what the beef ban in Karnataka is. I am being impacted upon by a bunch of loons who have no reason other than religion to ban beef.
Muloghonto Posted April 5, 2013 Posted April 5, 2013 thank you for showing your disdain towards theists. I dont care what you see it as. My position is simple- do not impose upon me hypothetical beleif based nonsense. If you dont like something because of your hypothetical beleifs, then feel free to do whatever you like with yourself, but you have absolutely no right to impinge on my freedom based on what *YOU* believe.
Muloghonto Posted April 5, 2013 Posted April 5, 2013 who stopped you from criticizing religion? you do it freely and openly as much as you want. im arguing with sachinlara that his disdain for RSS is completely unwarranted as he sees it as religious nutbags' date=' whereas i see it from a different perspective and im giving proof to him for that.[/quote'] You have given me or this thread any proof that demonstrates the VHP/RSS to be other than religious nutbars who want to impose their hypothetical beleifs and value system on society.
FischerTal Posted April 5, 2013 Posted April 5, 2013 This is the most ridiculous argument made against atheists and has been debunked multiple times. Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot didnt commit atrocities in the name of atheism. Their atheism had as much do with their actions as Christianity had to do with the actions of Christians in world war 2. However terrorism done by religious fanatics is not the same. An Islamic fundamentalist blowing himself up doesnt just happen to be a muslim, he does so in the name of Islam and in his mind uses religion to justify his act. These communists themselves sought to create a society that did not worship false idols and not believe in religious beliefs for the purpose of creating an equal and just society. Yet, these same people acted and behaved in the same way that they had accused religious bigots to be. They sought to show the state as the only hope for the people of their respective countries, while using the same state to control and impose their "rational" beliefs, going so far as killing many people in the process, which is exactly what they accused religious fundamentalists of doing with religion. Ultimate hypocrites.
Muloghonto Posted April 5, 2013 Posted April 5, 2013 Most BJP leaders come from the RSS Which is why i will never vote BJP. BJP would quite easily be the most efficient party and less corrupt but since they derive their ideological base from a bunch of religious nutbars, i do not like them or will vote for them. Religious nutbarism is religious nutbarism. Does not matter if they are the Taliban or the VHP. Yes, the Taliban do more 'damage' to society by their rampage of killings, but the VHP are no different, who seek to impose nutbar ideologies and morality on society, just of a different flavour.
FischerTal Posted April 5, 2013 Posted April 5, 2013 You have given me or this thread any proof that demonstrates the VHP/RSS to be other than religious nutbars who want to impose their hypothetical beleifs and value system on society. yes, i have already given you example of RMM, which you said doesnt matter. However, your belief in RSS being religious nutbags is completely demolished because RSS works with muslims to make their lives better.
FischerTal Posted April 5, 2013 Posted April 5, 2013 Which is why i will never vote BJP. BJP would quite easily be the most efficient party and less corrupt but since they derive their ideological base from a bunch of religious nutbars, i do not like them or will vote for them. Religious nutbarism is religious nutbarism. Does not matter if they are the Taliban or the VHP. Yes, the Taliban do more 'damage' to society by their rampage of killings, but the VHP are no different, who seek to impose nutbar ideologies and morality on society, just of a different flavour. Lol, keep trolling with the same words over and over again. it doesnt make you any more of a rational "secular" person. it just shows your contempt for a certain section of society, which makes you no different from the people you criticize
Muloghonto Posted April 5, 2013 Posted April 5, 2013 These communists themselves sought to create a society that did not worship false idols and not believe in religious beliefs for the purpose of creating an equal and just society. Yet' date=' these same people acted and behaved in the same way that they had accused religious bigots to be. They sought to show the state as the only hope for the people of their respective countries, while using the same state to control and impose their "rational" beliefs, going so far as killing many people in the process, which is exactly what they accused religious fundamentalists of doing with religion. Ultimate hypocrites.[/quote'] Err no, communists did not go around killing because their holy book dictated so, they didnt go around killing because their Gods told them to. They killed people in the same way control freaks will kill people if they are in power and do not get what they want right away. As someone pointed out before, attributing the killings of Stallin, Mao or Pol Pot to communism is as idiotic as attributing the victims of WWII Indian army to 'hinduism' or the Germans killed by the allies to 'christianity'. That is the level of argument you are appealing to with your communist rant. These acts were not done in the name of communism or religion, these acts were done in name of war/control etc. This is where your analogy fails- of the many flaws of communism, killing people because it is chartered/mandated by communist books is not it.
Muloghonto Posted April 5, 2013 Posted April 5, 2013 yes' date=' i have already given you example of RMM, which you said doesnt matter. However, your belief in RSS being religious nutbags is completely demolished because RSS works with muslims to make their lives better.[/quote'] It does not demolish my point, because my point is, RSS/VHP is evil because it seeks to impose its hypothetical beleifs on the rest of society, which is blatantly obvious. If a Hindu Hitler came around tomorrow, the RSS/VHP would not be the ones defending the rights of people against a monstrous nutbar with hypothetical beleifs, they will join in. And this is why i disdan them and said your example is nothing more than PR stunts.
FischerTal Posted April 5, 2013 Posted April 5, 2013 I dont care what you see it as. My position is simple- do not impose upon me hypothetical beleif based nonsense. If you dont like something because of your hypothetical beleifs' date=' then feel free to do whatever you like with yourself, but you have absolutely no right to impinge on my freedom based on what *YOU* believe.[/quote'] who is imposing on you anything? I am having a discussion with you. What you take out of it is up to you. The fact that i exercise free speech to rebut your nonsense is not imposing anything on you, but you feel the need to showcase RSS as some evil organization, which i dont agree in. Simple
Muloghonto Posted April 5, 2013 Posted April 5, 2013 Lol' date=' keep trolling with the same words over and over again. it doesnt make you any more of a rational "secular" person. it just shows your contempt for a certain section of society, which makes you no different from the people you criticize[/quote'] it does make me secular and rational person because: a) i do not believe in imposing hypothetical beleifs on society based on religious considerations b) i do not believe in 'tyranny of the majority', i believe in making laws and social contract on the basis of what is rational and completely bereft of religious texts. Just like how USA/Canada works.
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