saneindian Posted May 6, 2013 Posted May 6, 2013 Shiv Aroor @ShivAroor 6h I fear that a bigger bomb is set to drop when the fine print of the Ladakh pull-out is revealed. Govt smugness likely to be shortlived. Lt Gen H S Panag® @rwac48 6h @tal2011 Tactically no winner/loser.Strategically we were checkmated and our infrastructural weaknesses exposed! LG Panag has been relentless on his attack on the govt in this entire crisis. And nearly every defence analyst has agreed with his views expressed through series of tweets in last 10 days.
The Outsider Posted May 6, 2013 Posted May 6, 2013 Area that was previously being patrolled by the ITBP will now purportedly be no man's land. Was that the "status quo" before April 15, because all reports I've read have said that troops from both sides have withdrawn to the positions held prior to the Chinese movement around April 15? Don't think that's true. We were well within our borders from I have read. In either case glad the chinese have retreated back. That should be 500 meters and not 500 kms. Typo.
DomainK Posted May 6, 2013 Posted May 6, 2013 Was that the "status quo" before April 15' date=' because all reports I've read have said that [b']troops from both sides have withdrawn to the positions held prior to the Chinese movement around April 15? That should be 500 meters and not 500 kms. Typo. That is correct. People are just looking for reasons to bash Congress.
yoda Posted May 6, 2013 Posted May 6, 2013 From what I have read, seems like the LOC in those regions is not mutually agreed upon and is ambiguous. Then there is this new term, LAC (Line of Actual Control), whatever that means.
DomainK Posted May 6, 2013 Posted May 6, 2013 Could you tell us plebians exactly what this April 15 status quo consisted of? No. Do your own homework. :headshake:
gs Posted May 6, 2013 Posted May 6, 2013 Not sure what was bartered but thankfully no lives were lost.
saneindian Posted May 6, 2013 Posted May 6, 2013 Looks like the troop pull out is not yet confirmed. Brahma Chellaney @Chellaney 5h The story last night was the Chinese packed up and left. Today we're told flag meetings will "work out modalities and confirm arrangements."
youngindia Posted May 6, 2013 Posted May 6, 2013 From what I have read' date=' seems like the LOC in those regions is not mutually agreed upon and is ambiguous. Then there is this new term, LAC (Line of Actual Control), whatever that means.[/quote'] LOC seperates pakistan and india in kashmir since they have not agreed on a permanent border here. LAC seperates india and china roughly following the old macartney-mcdonald line in the west-central and the mcmahon line in the east. the macdonald and mcmahon lines are legendary key terms in the border dispute.
DomainK Posted May 6, 2013 Posted May 6, 2013 You mean you don't have a clue but couldn't help being a hawabaaz? Not the first time. Seriously, stop being a kid. If you wish to contradict what the news channels are reporting, prove your **** or just STFU. You want to know where the forces were before the escalation, do your own effin research.
saneindian Posted May 6, 2013 Posted May 6, 2013 India to give up Chumar post for Chinese withdrawal? NEW DELHI: Although the government maintained on Monday that no concessions were offered to the Chinese to end the face off in east Ladakh, India forces appear to have agreed to the removal of bunkers built by the army in Chumar close to the line of actual control (LAC) to facilitate an agreement. Sources in the security establishment familiar with the negotiations and the local topography told TOI that the 21-day confrontation on Ladakh's desolate Depsang plains ended only after the Indian Army agreed to demolish bunkers it had built in the region of Chumar near the LAC. The bunkers in question are close to what India considers its current border and are part of the proactive measures objected to by the Chinese. It's said that only after New Delhi agreed to concede the Chinese demand to pull down these "permanent" structures, that allow Indian troops to keep an eye on the Karakoram highway, did the PLA agree to pull back and restore pre-April 15 status. It has been claimed that India has also adopted "intrusive" tactics to counter aggressive Chinese patrolling and temporarily rolling back some measures is not a large sacrifice. It was also claimed that these bunkers were made only as "retaliation" to the Chinese intrusion. The vacation of the strategically located bunkers or "observation posts" -- that keep an eye on troop movements on the Chinese side - could end India's drill of daily border patrols to the "disputed" area, highly-placed sources said. Indian troops were patrolling the motorable stretch from the regular Chumar post to the bunkers and manning them through the day. The Chinese troops, which surprised India by setting up a tented post some 19 kms into what India perceives as its side of the LAC, first flagged concerns over the bunkers in Chumar at the second flag meeting on April 21. Since then, this strategic observation post had emerged as a bone of contention. China, already miffed with India's re-activation of advanced landing grounds at Daulat Beg Oldie, ***che and Nyoma and construction of other infrastructure along the LAC over the last four-five years, was uncomfortable with Indians being able to peep at the movement on the highway. The Chinese, in fact, had frequently tried to "immobilize'' the surveillance cameras positioned at the Chumar post by cutting wires. According to sources in the security establishment, at the April 21 flag meeting, the Chinese demanded the observation post at Chumar - which India insisted was only a resting place for patrolling troops as icy winds are a regular phenomenon - be immediately dismantled. Even at the time, the Army did not completely rule this out as a measure that could lead to the Chinese troops withdrawing from Raki Nala. But the Chinese refusal to make a firm commitment about pulling their tents in return for demolition of the bunkers was not acceptable to the Indian side. At the third flag meeting too, the same issue was raised, and the Chinese continued to be evasive. They said only after Indian troops had dismantled the border fortifications in Chumar and pulled back their own troops from the faceoff point at Raki Nala, would it "mull the next step". As the standoff entered its twentieth day on Saturday, the Chinese reiterated the demand for demolition of the Indian Army bunkers at a meeting between the local commanders. It was only after this was approved by the highest level on Sunday morning, with the Chinese agreeing to a reciprocal pull back, the Army sealed the "deal" - something which South Block mandarins stoutly denied. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/India-to-give-up-Chumar-post-for-Chinese-withdrawal/articleshow/19921512.cms As more details emerge, we will get to know the concessions made. But losing Chumar post looks to be a blow. I am expecting our side to have agreed to their demands of stopping the work on infra creation in that area as well. Govt tried to plant a story in the media about how tough negotiations with our side putting the relationship on brink pushed China to pull its troops back. Fortunately no one seems to have bought into that bunk.
jiggo Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 ^^^ If true well done by cowardly Congress government :isalute: Another star on their shining performance. status quo my ****.
ravishingravi Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/India-to-give-up-Chumar-post-for-Chinese-withdrawal/articleshow/19921512.cms As more details emerge, we will get to know the concessions made. But losing Chumar post looks to be a blow. I am expecting our side to have agreed to their demands of stopping the work on infra creation in that area as well. Govt tried to plant a story in the media about how tough negotiations with our side putting the relationship on brink pushed China to pull its troops back. Fortunately no one seems to have bought into that bunk. Wow!! Now this puts a whole new spin on the situation.
Crookbond Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 After Chinese pullout, India to step up infra development http://www.firstpost.com/india/after-chinese-pullout-india-to-step-up-infra-development-757041.html New Delhi: After the pullout by Chinese troops from Daulat beg Oldi area of Ladakh, infrastructure development programme along the Line of Actual Control is expected to be stepped up besides beefing up of the presence of Indian Army there. Frequency of patrolling along the LAC is also expected to be enhanced as per the new measures being contemplated by the government, sources said here today. The Government is also planning to give final clearance to Rs 84,000 crore Army proposal for raising the Mountain Strike Corps along the northeastern borders which will include deployment of IAF assets as per Army’s plans, they said. The force has been working on capability development in the North and Northeastern sector of the country in wake of the major modernisation of military infrastructure by China. Meanwhile, sources said there is a possibility of India re-adjusting its deployment plans in the Chumar area of Jammu and Kashmir, where Indian troops are in an advantageous positions and can look deep into the Chinese territory. China has been demanding in the flag meetings that India should dismantle its infrastructure built there including some key forward bunkers, where Indian Army had moved in recent times. However, it is not clear as to what extent India agreed to its demands. The Indian positions in Chumar, sources said, give India the capability to keep an eye on China’s all-important Western Highway. The Chinese have been carrying out incursions and transgressions into the Chumar area considering its location and the Indian positions there, they said. In a deal, it is important to know what is "given" and what is "taken". Mob mentality after all drives the TOI-let news paper and it's ardent readers.
jiggo Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 After Chinese pullout' date= India to step up infra development http://www.firstpost.com/india/after-chinese-pullout-india-to-step-up-infra-development-757041.html In a deal, it is important to know what is "given" and what is "taken". Mob mentality after all drives the TOI-let news paper and it's ardent readers. Granted TOI-let paper is a mere tabloid. But nothing in the above PTI article confirming any official statement from the government. It is full of words like "sources" or "contemplating".
Crookbond Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 Granted TOI-let paper is a mere tabloid. But nothing in the above PTI article confirming any official statement from the government. It is full of words like "sources" or "contemplating". Exactly. So, ATM the only confirmed news we have is off an end of stand off. We can't decide fait accompli which party has lost/gained advantage. We should hold our horses till confirmed details come out - which is my point.
saneindian Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 After Chinese pullout' date= India to step up infra development http://www.firstpost.com/india/after-chinese-pullout-india-to-step-up-infra-development-757041.html In a deal, it is important to know what is "given" and what is "taken". Mob mentality after all drives the TOI-let news paper and it's ardent readers. IE and NDTV are also running the same story. BTW mocking TOI by quoting a PTI report is quite funny.
Crookbond Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 IE and NDTV are also running the same story. BTW mocking TOI by quoting a PTI report is quite funny. I hope the irony is not lost on you. NDTV apparently is a "planted news source" and you yourself chose to cite it. What's even more funnier is making scathing criticisms on an entity based on slightest evidence of unconfirmed reports.
The Outsider Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 Till 2 or 3 days back, there was no mention of this April 15th status quo. Even this planted story says April 15 status quo but does not spell out what this constituted of. The first reports of the intrusion mention Chinese incursion 27 KMs deep into the Indian territory and that ITBP's aggressive patrolling pushed them 8 KMs back. Assuming for a moment that ITBP had not pushed them back and the Chinese had set up their post 27 KM deep, what would have been the implication of this status quo restoration? None of the initial reports mention that this was buffer zone or a no man's land, all of them mentioned that Chinese had set up base inside the Indian side of LAC. I cannot find one report that says both sides had some agreement not to enter this area or patrol it jointly. The restoration of status quo can only mean unilateral withdrawal of the Chinese platoon. I cannot say about this sector, but I've visited the area near Pangong lake and the last Indian army permanent establishment is several kilometers in from the border. Since I was staying at the army mess at Leh, I asked them the reason for it and was informed that due to the unclear acceptance of the international border both sides stay several kilometers away from the LAC to avoid any potential hostilities as far as permanent posts are concerned. Whether the same holds for the Daulat Beg sector or not, I can't be sure. But if that were the case then then I would guess status quo would mean withdrawal of permanent military presence several kilometers either side of the LAC, which India had also established in retaliation according to reports. This is anecdotal, so take it for what it's worth. But a lot related to this news is based on flimsy unverified "sources" and sometimes pure guesswork by the media. Moreover, maintaining a permanent base would be a drain on both armies and would be akin to maintaining a mini Siachen, so not sure if either side wants to do so given the level of hostility between India and China is nowhere near the level of India and Pakistan. Like Shiv Aroor's tweet suggests, there is a lot of opacity about the fine prints of this deal the government has cut with the Chinese. Prima facie, there's enough evidence to conclude that the GoI has, far from punishing the Chinese, conceded plenty to save its face. Well that's just a matter of preference as to whose tweet you want to believe and give how much weight to. In the same post there is also a tweet from HS Panag saying that while it was a strategic blow, nothing has changed tactically. There are simply not enough facts out in the open to make the kind of prima facie conclusions.
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