coffee_rules Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 http://www.rediff.com/news/report/devyani-row-india-softens-stand-us-rules-out-apology/20131220.htm India softens stand. US drives home advantage. Maid wins, Maalkin loses. External Affairs Minister Salman Khurshid sounded hopeful of finding a way out when he told reporters here, "We are going to find a solution. And I hope that we will find a solution." A day after he demanded dropping of charges against Khobragade unconditionally, Khurshid said on Friday, "I am conscious of the fact that this is a valuable relationship between two countries" while dealing with the "hurtful" and "unacceptable" treatment meted out to our diplomat. ... Meanwhile, in Washington, the US State Department rejected India's demands of dropping visa fraud charges against Khobragade and apologising for mistreating her, saying the allegations were "very serious" and she would not be allowed to go scot-free. State Department spokesperson Marie Harf also made it clear that the immunity sought for 39-year-old Khobragade after her transfer to India's Permanent Mission to the UN is "not retroactive". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hhunaeh Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 Already posted on this thread. http://www.justice.gov/usao/nys/pressreleases/December13/KhobragadeStatement.php I know that it is fraud when the existence of the second contract comes to light. Here i am assuming that "language on Federal, state, and local laws"which were left out are about the wage requirement. But weren't certain sections of the us setup ignoring the presence of second contracts for other diplomats all these years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
someone Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 Also, this is a like reality check for India. It's weak foreign policies and lack of friends worldwide. Also, I disagree with that idea that just because it was standard practice, it means and becomes acceptable and cannot be counted under law. Imagine arresting a politician and their defense group say that given in India, many arrested have been treated as hero and released and thus that is the standard practice to be done every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crookbond Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 I know that it is fraud when the existence of the second contract comes to light. Here i am assuming that "language on Federal' date=' state, and local laws"which were left out are about the wage requirement. But weren't certain sections of the us setup ignoring the presence of second contracts for other diplomats all these years.[/quote'] There wasn't and can't be a "second contract". All diplomat staff contracts are subjected to US labor law and the US state department should be notified of it. The very fact that the second contract wasn't notified (assuming that's true) makes the case pretty weak. Bharara knows that and he will use his full power to go after this after the MEA tried to make a devil out of him. Times Magazine Cover 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Merlyn Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 Also, this is a like reality check for India. It's weak foreign policies and lack of friends worldwide. Also, I disagree with that idea that just because it was standard practice, it means and becomes acceptable and cannot be counted under law. Imagine arresting a politician and their defense group say that given in India, many arrested have been treated as hero and released and thus that is the standard practice to be done every time. Its a reality check for MMS govt. and that India needed to stick to its stand of 55 years of not being too close to US.When India was not a so called close ally of US no such incidence happened.As soon as India started having closer ties and started giving US VIP treatment this has started.We need to stay away from US. And no India doesnt lack friends world wide but this is not an issue of any worldwide significance.Many resolutions againist India in UN sponsored by US have been defeated or blocked.So India has its allies,but this is not an issue big enough for such steps.India made a mistake by making close ties with US,old Indian allies like Russia/Iran warned India. US can only hurt two types of countries...... 1.Countries with questionable credibility like Iran/N.Korea/Afghanistan/Iraq and co. 2.Countries which depend on US financial or military aid. India belonged to non of these groups but then MMS sarkar thought that we must ally with US and see what it did.But its not too late and we need to stay away from them and their so called strategic partnership.Better for us.Its not for no reason that Nehrus/Indira's/Vajpayees maintained a certain distance from the US.MMS and Pappu and co. didnt understand that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Merlyn Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 There wasn't and can't be a "second contract". All diplomat staff contracts are subjected to US labor law and the US state department should be notified of it. The very fact that the second contract wasn't notified (assuming that's true) makes the case pretty weak. Bharara knows that and he will use his full power to go after this after the MEA tried to make a devil out of him. Times Magazine Cover 2012 I say Khobagarde will not go to court.India as a last resort can simply move her to the Indian Embassy in Washington and no US authority can reach her there.There are lots of options. The DA is toast.DOnt worry about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuge Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 I am going on a hunger strike till I get my passport. :protest: dharna de do :giggle: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randomGuy Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 US can only hurt two types of countries...... 1.Countries with questionable credibility like Iran/N.Korea/Afghanistan/Iraq and co. 2.Countries which depend on US financial or military aid. It has snooped on heads of states of Germany and Brazil. It has tried to f**k with Russia and China. We can maybe align ourselves with Russia, China, Iran and Brazil if that's advantageous for us. And try n achieve some of the things mentioned in post# 366. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crookbond Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 Also, this is a like reality check for India. It's weak foreign policies and lack of friends worldwide. Also, I disagree with that idea that just because it was standard practice, it means and becomes acceptable and cannot be counted under law. Imagine arresting a politician and their defense group say that given in India, many arrested have been treated as hero and released and thus that is the standard practice to be done every time. Prima facie you are right but consider the other side of this argument - The maid was given lodging, food, utilities etc. as well so that could over the min. wages per hour requirement. In Indian terms, think of 4500USD as CTC and salary + food + lodging + utilities adding up to it despite the salary being low. But, the problem is that the salary = 537 USD per month. This effectively means that the "perks" should come out to 4000USD. Add to that, if the plaintiff is able to prove that she was over worked - god bless Devyani Khobragade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Merlyn Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 It has snooped on heads of states of Germany and Brazil. It has tried to f**k with Russia and China. We can maybe align ourselves with Russia' date=' China, Iran and Brazil if that's advantageous for us. And try n achieve some of the things mentioned in post# 366.[/quote'] Seceretly snooping and blatant action like this is different. Sorry but US has little guts to take on Russia.I guess you know what answer Paratha Bharta got when he wanted to prosecute Russians.Same with Chinese. BRICS is the WTG for India.None of the BRICS country are very cosy with USA.Brazil is already having an issue with USA isnt it? Dont know how good SA is with USA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crookbond Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 I say Khobagarde will not go to court.India as a last resort can simply move her to the Indian Embassy in Washington and no US authority can reach her there.There are lots of options. The DA is toast.DOnt worry about that. :haha: This means she has to literally live there and desert her whole family. In addition, that would make her absconding criminal far worse than just a criminal which in turn would make her liable for further charges. This is not movies we're talking about - aaya Ram, gaya Ram. Lets see who is toast come January. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Merlyn Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 Prima facie you are right but consider the other side of this argument - The maid was given lodging' date=' food, utilities etc. as well so that could over the min. wages per hour requirement. In Indian terms, think of 4500USD as CTC and salary + food + lodging + utilities adding up to it despite the salary being low. But, the problem is that the salary = 537 USD per month. This effectively means that the "perks" should come out to 4000USD. Add to that, if the plaintiff is able to prove that she was over worked - god bless Devyani Khobragade.[/quote'] What if GOI says that and produces paper that the maid was working for GOI and that DK signed the contract on behalf of GOI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Merlyn Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 :haha: This means she has to literally live there and desert her whole family. In addition, that would make her absconding criminal far worse than just a criminal which in turn would make her liable for further charges. This is not movies we're talking about - aaya Ram, gaya Ram. Lets see who is toast come January. India can keep her there till the matter is resolved and i bet you it will be.When was the last time any diplomat from any country went to jail?They dont. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hhunaeh Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 There wasn't and can't be a "second contract". All diplomat staff contracts are subjected to US labor law and the US state department should be notified of it. The very fact that the second contract wasn't notified (assuming that's true) makes the case pretty weak. Bharara knows that and he will use his full power to go after this after the MEA tried to make a devil out of him. I am not talking about the legality of the issue. I know that it is fraud to lie on your visa or passport application. I am saying that the maid is not completely in the right. It looks like she has taken unfair advantage of this system which indian diplomats were following and americans were overlooking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crookbond Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 Devyani Khobragade immovable assets as listed on MEA website Check Point 10. http://mea.gov.in/Portal/IRPDocuments/626_2012_Immovable_Property_.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randomGuy Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 Seceretly snooping and blatant action like this is different. only a little diff. when it comes out in open. It also means they were doing it blatantly and at a very large scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crookbond Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 What if GOI says that and produces paper that the maid was working for GOI and that DK signed the contract on behalf of GOI. I think you didn't read what I said earlier. The agreement between India-US says that all contracts between the diplomat and the staff HAVE TO BE given to US. This is not a matter of choice. India can keep her there till the matter is resolved and i bet you it will be.When was the last time any diplomat from any country went to jail?They dont. Yes, she will be let go but she will be charged and handed out a sentence. They will say that our court convicted your diplomat in a court of law and we allowed them to go. Better be careful next time. That's how US rolls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crookbond Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 I am not talking about the legality of the issue. I know that it is fraud to lie on your visa or passport application. I am saying that the maid is not completely in the right. It looks like she has taken unfair advantage of this system which indian diplomats were following and americans were overlooking. It depends. Here are some questions to which I want an answer - Was the maid forced to sign a second contract? Was the maid's passport held by Devyani? Did Devyani threaten the maid with her muscle power if she refuse to toe the line? If the answers to all the above questions is YES - the maid is not in the right. You've got to factor in that Devyani has more power than the maid in all this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Merlyn Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 I think you didn't read what I said earlier. The agreement between India-US says that all contracts between the diplomat and the staff HAVE TO BE given to US. This is not a matter of choice. Yes, she will be let go but she will be charged and handed out a sentence. They will say that our court convicted your diplomat in a court of law and we allowed them to go. Better be careful next time. That's how US rolls. Agreement between India and DK or India or Maid is not subject to US laws.As those are between a sovereign state and its employee.Thats very clear in Vienna convention. Sentences dont matter if they are not carried out.But i doubt sentence will be given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hhunaeh Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 It depends. Here are some questions to which I want an answer - Was the maid forced to sign a second contract? Was the maid's passport held by Devyani? Did Devyani threaten the maid with her muscle power if she refuse to toe the line? If the answers to all the above questions is YES - the maid is not in the right. You've got to factor in that Devyani has more power than the maid in all this. yea i know that answers to all your questions might end up showing dk dishonored even the unwritten system that indian diplomats have followed till now. But do the americans need to go into all of this? They have her at visa fraud. That's enough to humiliate us if what they have done already is not enough. They might need the rest to prove the trafficking allegation which would be even worse. As of now i will back the indian position, sorry my position that the maid is just working the fecked up system indians were following. I would be neutral if the something like this had come up in india or if the accused were not representing india in some form but not in this case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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