kabira Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 btw, we should not compare Kashimir with Gujarat here is the reason n 1989-1990, when some Muslims in the Kashmir valley slaughtered some 10,000 Kashmiri Pandits, killed or raped their women in front of their eyes, and ultimately expelled some 350,000 Pandits from their homes, that was genocide of a religious group. In Gujarat 2002, however, of the total deaths (as per the home ministry's official annual report for 2002-2003, page 6), about a third were Hindus (including 59 charred in a train compartment) and 200 in all were killed in police firing. If, at one stage, 100,000 Muslims were struggling in relief camps, so were 40,000 Hindus. Thus, Gujarat 2002 was not genocide of one ethnic community as the UNDP report alleges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kabira Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 UNDP is ignorant and insolent July 28, 2004 The latest UNDP report's remark that India's reputation as a model constitutional protector of the country's remarkable cultural diversity has begun to fray because of the 2002 'genocide' in Gujarat is outrageous ignorance and insolence of the report's authors. According to the UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, 'genocide' refers to 'acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group.' Note that little word 'a' in that definition. When Nazi Germany extinguished six million of a single group called Jews, that was genocide. When, in 1984, Congress party goons extinguished over 3,000 of a single group called Sikhs, that too was genocide. In 1989-1990, when some Muslims in the Kashmir valley slaughtered some 10,000 Kashmiri Pandits, killed or raped their women in front of their eyes, and ultimately expelled some 350,000 Pandits from their homes, that was genocide of a religious group. In Gujarat 2002, however, of the total deaths (as per the home ministry's official annual report for 2002-2003, page 6), about a third were Hindus (including 59 charred in a train compartment) and 200 in all were killed in police firing. If, at one stage, 100,000 Muslims were struggling in relief camps, so were 40,000 Hindus. Thus, Gujarat 2002 was not genocide of one ethnic community as the UNDP report alleges. Secondly, the authors of that report want us to believe that but for Gujarat 2002, the constitutional secularism of Indian democracy has by and large fulfilled its promise of all communities living in a paradise of religious pluralism. That's a falsehood. The truth is documented in the book Riots & Wrongs (India First Foundation, New Delhi, 2004) written by R N P Singh, an ex-officer of India's Intelligence Bureau who was honoured with the President's Police Medal and Indian Police Medal. Statistics cited by Singh show that communal violence in India occurred in each and every year from 1954 to 1985. The total number of communal incidents in those 31 years was 8,449 (an annual average of 273), the total number of persons killed in that period was 7,229 (an annual average of 233), and the number of persons injured in those incidents was 47,321 (an annual average of 1,526). After 1985, communal riots have also occurred in every year from 1986 to 1995, and in 1997, 2002 (besides Gujarat), and 2003. Today's 'secular' journalists in denims and Lalu-like politicians in khadi are the fundamentalist secularists who believe that communal riots in India are caused by the RSS-VHP-BJP trinity. And pinko historians salivate in tracing Hindu-Muslim riots to British colonial scheming. But history again tells a different tale. In their 564-page narrative on India's long road to independence, Anthony Read and Davis Fischer write, 'The British may have utilized the division between Hindus and Muslims, but they certainly did not invent it: there had been communal friction since at least the time of Aurangzeb' who ruled India from 1658 till his death in 1707. (The Proudest Day, PIMLICO, 1998, page 78). However, the first reported Hindu-Muslim riot took place in 1713 AD -- 212 years before the RSS was formed, 251 years before the VHP was founded, and 289 years before the Gujarat riots broke out after 59 Hindus were burnt to death in a train. Indeed, before the RSS was born in 1925, Singh's book records the occurrence of some 150 Hindu-Muslim riots and, unbelievably, of four riots between Muslims and... Parsis! If Golwalkar and his so-called Hindu fanatics were not yet on the scene, why had those pre-1925 riots happened? A glimpse of the truth can be had from those four Muslim-Parsi riots traced to Bombay by Singh's book. In 1850, a Parsi journalist published a photograph of Mohammad Paigambar in his newspaper. Muslims started assaulting all Parsis. In 1851, a magazine edited by a Parsi youth gave an account of the Prince of Arabia and an undiscovered villain posted a lithograph portrait of the Prophet on the entrance of a mosque. That was enough for Muslims to belabour Parsis. In 1857, Muslims killed a Parsi high priest and a notorious Parsi character for his supposed insult to Islam and for receiving from the British what was deemed as only a mild punishment. The 1874 riots too originated because of a Parsi's translation of an American writer's article on the Prophet. (BTW, does all that tell us why India's modern-day journalists do not touch Islam with a barbed pen?) It was thus abundantly clear more than 150 years ago, if not more, that their religion, Islam, was the be-all and end-all of Muslims in India. Even Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi failed to alter that mindset. It was but a matter of time before Pakistan was carved out from British India with accompanying rivers of human blood and oceans of human tears. Not satisfied, the new Islamic country invaded the Kashmir valley to secure its possession on religious grounds. Came the Constitution of India on January 26, 1950, founded on noble secular principles although its architect, Dr B R Ambedkar, was convinced about his thesis that Muslims cannot co-exist with non-Muslims (Thoughts on Pakistan, Thacker & Co, Bombay, 1946). This thesis has been subsequently endorsed by several Muslims themselves. Thus, in The Telegraph, Calcutta, of April 29, 1986, Tara Ali Baig wrote that the problem with the Muslims is that they 'insist on living lives by a fixed set of laws laid down for them in an Arab country long ago, which even today they consider inflexible, unalterable doctrine. This is the real root of the separate existence of Muslims in India. They do not know where to turn except to Mecca and the home of their religion.' Muslim intellectuals in India like eminent jurist M C Chagla, ex-politician and scholar Dr Rafiq Zakaria, and senior journalist M J Akbar have shared this view. The conflict of interest between Muslims and non-Muslims and, what's more, between intra-Muslim sects themselves, has been substantiated outside India. The research findings of Jonathan Fox (published in his book Islam And The West) on the Cold War and post-Cold War activities of Islamic groups support Samuel Huntington's thesis that 'Islam is one of the greatest participants in civilizational conflicts'. As observed in the Journal of Peace Research (vol 38, no 4, 2001, Sage Publications, London), the Islamic civilization is conflicting with all other religions and not just the West. By ignoring the fallout of the inherently inimical nature of Islam, the UNDP report errs further by believing that all over the world people can have multiple and complementary identities without creating a conflict between the assertion of ethnicity and the honouring of citizenship obligations. Citing the factual situations in Lebanon, Cyprus, Israel, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Algeria, Egypt, Iran, Afghanistan, India, Russia and China, R N P Singh concludes, 'Muslims, whether in minority or majority, are always in conflict with others on one cause or the other. They never agree to join the mainstream with the non-Muslim majority and always demand separate land, separate law, separate educational institutions, and separate concessions. Their usual approach is to launch jehad or holy war against non-Muslims.' This reality is slowly but surely dawning on the advanced Western world where Muslim immigrants are swelling by the day. Unlike India's ostrich-like media, leading newspapers abroad are beginning to look sharply at Islam's tenets. Take Britain, where Muslim immigrants are now in the third generation stage. According to a recent poll in that country, 13 percent of British Muslims 'approved of a renewed terrorist assault, on the scale of the 9/11 outrage, on targets in America and Britain'. (India Link International magazine, London, June-July 2004 issue). In that same publication are the views of Sarfraz Manzoor, the deputy commissioning editor at Channel 4, and of Lord Nazir Ahmed. Manzoor condemned 'the alienated and angry young Muslims who, though born here, do not accept Britain as their homeland.' Lord Nazir was critical of the imams in England who deliver fiery sermons and bemoaned, 'Young Muslims who come under the influence and spell of such narrow-minded imams are filled with nothing but animosity and absurd notions about Britain and the British people.' In the Netherlands, arecent survey of 813 Dutch adults by TNS NIPO pollsters for De Volkskrant newspaper found that 36 percent of the Dutch feel threatened by Muslims in the Netherlands and only 15 percent regard their culture positively. In Italy, writer Stefania A, an Italian ex-Muslim woman, recently condemned the social, political, and religious attitude of Muslim immigrants to Italy, bemoaned their unwillingness to do anything to integrate themselves with Italians, and told them to leave if they were not satisfied with what Italy offered them. There is also France where the head scarf for Muslim schoolgirls caused such a furore among the Muslim community and forced the government to be determined to ban its wearing. Taking Europe as a whole, the increasing assertiveness of Muslims has resulted in some intellectuals predicting the continent's name being changed in the near future to 'Eurabia.' Finally, the USA. More and more mainstream journalists are uncovering facts that will wean away the naïve belief that Islam is a religion of peace. The latest is from Nicholas D Kristoff. Writing in The New York Times, he made the telling assessment, 'We have quite properly linked the fundamentalist religious tracts of Islam with the intolerance they nurture.' (Reproduced in The Asian Age, Mumbai, July 20, 2004.) It's a tragedy of our times then that the UNDP report's authors chose to wear blinkers when it gushed about cultural diversity being compatible with integrated citizenship without taking the Islamic world into account. By the way, how much does producing a UNDP report cost? What purpose does it, and other such UN reports, serve? Might it not be better for the world body to spend that money, howsoever small or big, on offering succour to the victims of such genocides as were perpetrated on the Sikhs in 1984 and the Kashmiri Pandits in 1989-1990? Article ToolsEmail this article Top emailed links Print this article Write us a letter Discuss this article Related Stories Nanavati panel raps policemen Godhra: Lalu orders fresh probe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 most definately..so lets begin with Godhra killings...shall we? why are these ppl scott free? I am surprised to hear that line of argument. Let me ask you categorically - Are you saying killings in Gujrat riot 2002 was justified to avenge Godhra? A categorical Yes/No shall do. And by the way do check out the news about Coimbatore blast of 1998, Kanpur riots of 1992. They have both happened in past 2-3 days and in both Hindus and Muslims have been sentenced so if you are wondering for an anti-Gujrat or worse an anti-Hindu tirade you are mistaken. Here,since you asked for prior riots: Hindus sentenced over India riots A court in India has sentenced 15 Hindus to life imprisonment for murder and other crimes during riots following the destruction of a mosque in 1992. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7060399.stm Life terms over 1998 India bombs A court in the southern Indian state of Tamil Nadu has sentenced 23 people to life in prison in connection with a series of bombs nine years ago. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7060458.stm xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 btw' date= we should not compare Kashimir with Gujarat If anyone is comparing Gujrat to Kashmir it is you Kabira, you brought it up so I am not even sure why should I defend something that I never said in the first place!! xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Yea, whatever happened to the Godhra train killers? Those are the real scum who started the whole thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kabira Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 tell me Modi's fault here? cases are beyond him [h2] Judgment day for 12 Gujarat riot cases [/h2] Enlarge Photo By IBNlive.com Wednesday November 22, 10:18 AM New Delhi: Justice still remains elusive for many victims of the 2002 Gujarat riots and as many as 12 cases linked to the communal riots are currently pending before the Supreme Court and will come up for hearing on Wednesday. These include the the high-profile Gulberga society, Sardarpura massacre, Naroda Patia killings and the petition on "witness protection" and the one seeking transfer of trials outside Gujarat. These petitions were filed in the Supreme Court soon after the a Gujarat Sessions Court in 2003 and later the High Court acquitted all 21 accused in the Best Bakery case. The high court judgment came after Zaheera Sheikh, the prime witness in the Best Bakery case, retracted her statements. The National Human Rights Commission (NHRC), fearing undue pressure on the witness, filed a petition in the Supreme court seeking retrial and witness protection. The trial was transferred to Mumbai, where the special court sentenced nine of the 17 accused to life imprisonment, but the case took another interesting turn, when both Supreme Court and the Sessions Court sentenced Zahira Sheikh for lying under oath (perjury). Other cases pending in the Supreme Court are a petition by the NHRC seeking transfer of other trials out of Gujarat. The Supreme Court has stayed 14 trials, including the Godhra incident, Gulbarga society, Sardarpura, Ode, Naroda Gaon and Naroda Patiya massacres. The court ordered CBI investigation into all these cases on November 21, 2003. Other cases include the writ filed by Devendrabhai Pathak in May 2002, seeking CBI investigation of major riot cases in Gujarat. With the Supreme Court yet to hear arguments of the concerned parties in most of the cases, the riot victims may have to wait a long time for justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 tell me Modi's fault here? cases are beyond him [h2] Judgment day for 12 Gujarat riot cases [/h2] Modi is clearly at fault for not doing his job in 2002 hence the cases. As I have mentioned in my first initial posts on this topic, I definitely appreciate the journalists doing in 6 months what Courts have not done in 6 years..The politicians obviously did nothing but create the situation for these cases. xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kabira Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 >Modi is clearly at fault for not doing his job in 2002 hence the cases. huh....so Gandhiji is at fault too..for not doing his job in 1947...for being not able to stop biggest riots in our history... you are ignoring the main issue....killing of innocent ppl by burning the train...I don' t see even single court case regarding this... official figures, 200 hindus were killed by policemen..now why would Modi kill them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 >Modi is clearly at fault for not doing his job in 2002 hence the cases. huh....so Gandhiji is at fault too..for not doing his job in 1947...for being not able to stop biggest riots in our history... Errr actually NO. Gandhi moved bag and baggage to Noakholi, one of the worst riot hit areas of the country and brought curtains on it all by himself. His close ally Badshah Khan did the same in Bihar and in my opinion these two gentlemen are the ONLY folks who cover themselves with any glory during 1947 riots. And please do tell me that you were kidding when comparing Modi with Gandhi. you are ignoring the main issue....killing of innocent ppl by burning the train...I don' t see even single court case regarding this... official figures, 200 hindus were killed by policemen..now why would Modi kill them. Actually you are the one ignoring things; one question and other fact. Q> Are you saying killings in Gujrat riot 2002 was justified to avenge Godhra? I havent had your answer on this Kabira. Fact > When Godhra happened the CM of Gujrat was one Narendra Modi. The man was inept to stop Godhra, or to bring culprits to task...heck he has not done so in past 7 years now!!! Strange how Gujratis dont realize that simple fact. xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kabira Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 >Are you saying killings in Gujrat riot 2002 was justified to avenge Godhra? I havent had your answer on this Kabira. the world does not run on your justification or mine...no it was not proper for riots to happen...but let me tell you, if Godhra happens again, riots will happen again..even if Modi is there or not...thats how Gujarat been...how can one stop Godhra?? care to explain?? and about bringing culprits to task..you mentioned two such cases...how many years did it take them to put culprits to the task?? Indian judicial system is slow, its not Modi's fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 the world does not run on your justification or mine...no it was not proper for riots to happen...but let me tell you, if Godhra happens again, riots will happen again..even if Modi is there or not...thats how Gujarat been...how can one stop Godhra?? care to explain?? The way Godhra can be stopped is to pick the culprits, build a strong case and then punish them for good. Gujrat has been led by BJP for the better part of last decade, it has an extreme right winger at the helm and you are telling me that if Modi really wanted to put the perpetrators of Godhra behind bars he could not have done it? And what about post-Godhra riots? It was amply evident that there would be a backlash, so why were not adequate arrangements done? I am not sure if you have read the article in its entirety but there is a big question mark over the efficiency of Cops during Gujrat riots. and about bringing culprits to task..you mentioned two such cases...how many years did it take them to put culprits to the task?? Indian judicial system is slow, its not Modi's fault. I gave you two examples that has happened in past 2-3 days. I have mentioned it before that Journalist did in 6 months what Courts couldnt do in 6 years. Yes Judicial System needs to expedite the process but I would take slow judiciary any day over a bunch of goons taking law in their own hands and going about killing people as they did in 2002. xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rajiv Posted October 26, 2007 Share Posted October 26, 2007 Watching it on TV, gruesome But! What timing, Pak tour of India coming up and 250 visitor visas being issued and this thing is all out there You can put 2 and 2 together Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted October 26, 2007 Share Posted October 26, 2007 This is clear instigation and they (tehelka) should be taken to task. I am sure people are fearing riots for opening up the wounds of 2002. IMO in 2002, altho' the Hindu retaliation was justified (because of Godhra), the excesses of it was not justified. It;s like they got 10 eyes for losing one eye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Outsider Posted October 26, 2007 Share Posted October 26, 2007 It was a genocide because the state was involved in killing and targeting a certain community of people and the perpetrators must be brought to justice no matter what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
head coach Posted October 26, 2007 Share Posted October 26, 2007 Shameful and disgusting. This is an insult to Indian citizens who live all over the world that while the country and its citizens pretends to be part of a global campaign against terrorism, those who are daily terrorising the minorities and the Dalits, those who are heaping insults on women and those who depend on abuse rather than on cohesive arguments are part of the ruling elite. If modi is not put in jail for all his life who knows what he is going to do next? If it doesnt happen then it is a shame on people who try to live a peaceful life! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
head coach Posted October 26, 2007 Share Posted October 26, 2007 none did any "undercover" stories on what happened in Valley nor does anybody give a flying fack about the pathetic situation of KPs even after 20 yrs .... No one here wastes any time in condemning the ethnic cleansing nor do they shed tears about the countless terror attacks that have killed far more people than any communal riot so far .... in fact what we see here is people arguing that they have no problems with Sharia or infact refusing to accept that there was any Sharia in India .... there also no shortage of people giving a clean chit to all Kashmiri muslims (facts be damned) , beating their chests on the death sentence issued to Afzal Guru who was caught pretty much red handed in bombing the temple of our democracy ... I wonder why ? Bossbhai, Nobody is refuting to your claims of Kashmir Pandits treated badly. But that doesnt mean Modi and his men can beat the heck out of Muslims in Gujarat. Nobody should be above law. All who are responsible for the train incident and the riots that followed should be punished. Both Muslims and Hindus alike. Now that Tehelka exposes Modis hidden agenda no way he should continue his stint scorch free :thumbs_down: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda Posted October 26, 2007 Share Posted October 26, 2007 Is there a tehelka expose on the godhra killings other than this? For three days after the February 27 fire on the Sabarmati Express at Godhra, Gujarat’s BJP government receded from public view Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesiChap Posted October 26, 2007 Share Posted October 26, 2007 Sensationalism at it worst ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted October 26, 2007 Share Posted October 26, 2007 And now the sting operation has been "banned" in Gujrat :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical: The Gujarat Government blacked out several TV channels on Thursday night after the channels started beaming a sting operation done by Tehelka that accused Chief Minister Narendra Modi of inciting the 2002 Gujarat riotsThe Gujarat Government blacked out several TV channels on Thursday night after the channels started beaming a sting operation done by Tehelka that accused Chief Minister Narendra Modi of inciting the 2002 Gujarat riots http://www.ibnlive.com/news/tv-channels-showing-riot-sting-banned-in-gujarat/51225-3.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Outsider Posted October 26, 2007 Share Posted October 26, 2007 :hysterical::hysterical: Talk about the truth hurting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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