Was Imran Khan a severe and regular ball tamperor?

[rtmohanlal]

In test cricket, these high strike rates down the order at an average of 30 rarely makes a big difference to the game. Sehwag's strike rates made a big difference because it was done at the top of the order with a high average of 50. Kapil's contributions in test matches were mostly cameos that did not impact the match results in a big way. You are merely trying to compare some numbers between Botham and Kapil here - but Botham won many matches with his batting compared to Kapil. At his peak, Botham was capable of scoring a 100 and also pick up a 5fer in the same match - that kind of skill is almost unparalleled in all of cricket. Very few players have done this feat, but Botham did that several times.

look...i just put forward plain true datas all along my posts.Kapil has 35 >50 scores.Botham has 36.now if you feel Botham won a lot of matches due to these 36 so be it.and similarly Kapils's 35 of them did not have big impact as per you so be it.i put some 5 all round performances of Kapil in a reply to the other poster. for eg: that 11 wkts + 84 runs vs Pak. yes that lag by 16 runs from a 100 , but yet it is very close to a 5wkt + 100 run performance in effect.and those runs where scored at brisk pace too against Imran Khan and co.another one is the 100* + 3 wkts in WI. Though the number of wkts is only 3 , since that came against the best team , i rate it very close to a 100 run + 5 wkt haul. again my intention is just to convey plain facts about which i am aware of. and it is not to win over any body in an argument. based on what data i got i believe Kapil was the better all rounder convincingly ...and you shall stick on with your conclusions... no regrets:winky:

[gazza]

botham averaged 28 or less with the ball everywhere he played except for pakistan where he averaged 45 from 1 match and 39 in WI from 9, in india he averaged 25 from 7 matches. kapil on the other hand averaged 30+ in 6 countries, 40+ in 2 of those and 39 in another. kapil may have had too play more in india and had good numbers there but it doesn't necessarily make him a better bowler than botham, bowling imo is about even if not the edge to beefy. as far as batting, if you're going to you the played in india as a way to even up their bowling then you can't ignore it for batting and so as kapil batted in india more, batted lower down the order, and had more not outs then he should have at least a better average than botham with the bat should he not? the biggest things against botham are that after his peak he was pretty average then become horrible and that his peak years coincided with packer series etc so competitionw asn't quite as high.

[Muloghonto]

botham averaged 28 or less with the ball everywhere he played except for pakistan where he averaged 45 from 1 match and 39 in WI from 9, in india he averaged 25 from 7 matches. kapil on the other hand averaged 30+ in 6 countries, 40+ in 2 of those and 39 in another. kapil may have had too play more in india and had good numbers there but it doesn't necessarily make him a better bowler than botham, bowling imo is about even if not the edge to beefy. as far as batting, if you're going to you the played in india as a way to even up their bowling then you can't ignore it for batting and so as kapil batted in india more, batted lower down the order, and had more not outs then he should have at least a better average than botham with the bat should he not? the biggest things against botham are that after his peak he was pretty average then become horrible and that his peak years coincided with packer series etc so competitionw asn't quite as high.

1. Kapil was a much better bowler than Botham. Reason: Kapil at his best was not a one trick pony ( a giant outswinger) like Botham was. Botham never was a complete bowler because he did not bowl inswingers effectively and pretty much entirely relied on setting up the outswinger. On days Botham was fit and his outswinger was going, he was devastating. On other days, he was not so much. Kapil on the other hand was a more complete bowler. he was nippier than Botham at his peak, could get the ball to move both ways and most importantly, due to his classically side-on action, could disguise it beautifully too. Problem with Kapil was he had no support. no fast bowling partner for entire career who could be seen as worldclass and except for the first few years when Doshi was around, no competent spinner either. When you have a single quality bowler in a side, his numbers tends to suffer if they are not absolutely cream of the crop (which, none of these bowlers are. If you think even Imran Khan is the same category of Marshall, Ambrose or Donald, you didn't watch him bowl for long). Botham had much better suport- he played with Willis & Underwood. And when Botham became the sole striker for England, his numbers nosedived far worse than Kapil's. Above all, Kapil was better because he did extremely well against the strongest team of his side. I am sorry but if you go around averaging 21-22 with the ball over a long period of time against an ATG side and somehow manage not to cash in against worse opposition, its not just a matter of comparing your overall average to extrapolate how good you were. Sports doesnt work that way. 2. Kapil did not bat for not outs. Imran did. That is one reason why he averaged 50+ for the last ten years of his career because Imran didn't score a lot of runs, he just came in mostly at #6 and promptly shut shop. With Pakistan's weak tail ( Bari was the epitome of a great wicketkeeper who couldn't bat at all), Imran ended up with a bloated average due to a quarter of his innings being not outs. Kapil on the other hand, was a true Biffer, sort of like an Afridi: he would happily score an extra four and get out than shoulder arm and end up with a not out. That much was evident in Kapil's game. I'd rate the famous four in these benchmarks: Bowling: Hadlee, Imran, Kapil, Botham Batting: Kapil, Imran, Botham, Hadlee Overall: Imran, Kapil, Botham, Hadlee

[rtmohanlal]

my ratings of the Fab 4' 1. Kapil - all round brilliance in every department be it tests,one dayers, fielding or captaincy.kept atleast a good standard in each of these. 2. Botham - not so brilliant captaincy.atleast good in all other 3 3. Hadlee-not captained at all to rate him,not more than an above average fielder,way too gap between his bowling and batting in both tests and one dayers 4. Imran - used to be the top all rounder in my teens because i just thought it was all about superior no:s be it bat avg: or bowl avg: .later after watching considerable amount of cricket over several years and there by realizing it is not all about averages and w.r.t after analysing deeply the records of all 4 of these i placed Kapil along with him at the top. but now knowing there is every possible chance of his stats getting considerably inflated by frequent severe ball tampering in all possibilities i can't rate him above any of the other 3.

[gazza]

Botham didn't play for not outs either and played in tougher batting conditions so that point still stands as kapil batted lower and in friendlier conditions do had better opportunity to score and average more.

[rtmohanlal]

Botham didn't play for not outs either and played in tougher batting conditions so that point still stands as kapil batted lower and in friendlier conditions do had better opportunity to score and average more.

Kapil too didn't play for not outs as his huge str: rate of 80.91 shows.more over he took more risks because of tailenders in company in majority of his stay at the crease.w.r.t conditions Kapil has very good batting averages in WI,ENG and SAF.not that crap in AUS also. only blip was in NZL. but that happens with any cricketer.so for me Kapil deserves more marks for his batting because even with only tail enders in company he only lagged Botham by 2.49 in avg: but towered him in str: rate by 20.2

[bones]

If tampering with the ball is going to take him out of the equation when it comes to who is the greatest of the 4. You can take out Botham as well then, who's said many times on commentary, he would stand his ground after edging a ball. I don't have evidence of this, cause it's been during Ashes and other England series. Not sure about Hadlee or Kapil, but to assume that only cheats came from one country is being very naive. I think they cheated back them and regularlry because they could and got away with it. Heck when I'm playing cricket with my friends, I know I'm out, but I'll stand there just so I can have more time wackng the ball as a pose to standing bored on the boundary. But if you put aside the question marks for a moment. The stats do point towards Imran Khan. I showed my Indian mate the stats for the 4 all rounders a while back without putting the names down next to them, and he picked out the stats for Imran.

[Muloghonto]

Botham didn't play for not outs either and played in tougher batting conditions so that point still stands as kapil batted lower and in friendlier conditions do had better opportunity to score and average more.

Lower batting position is detrimental to kapil, since he didnt play for not outs and lower batting position is friendly to those playing fir not outs. Also, kapil batted on easier conditions ? Pray tell. Indian pitches in the 80s were turners, which last I checked, is not easier to bat on than seaming wickwts Sent from my GT-S5830D using Tapatalk 2

[Marut]

look...i just put forward plain true datas all along my posts.Kapil has 35 >50 scores.Botham has 36.now if you feel Botham won a lot of matches due to these 36 so be it.and similarly Kapils's 35 of them did not have big impact as per you so be it.i put some 5 all round performances of Kapil in a reply to the other poster. for eg: that 11 wkts + 84 runs vs Pak. yes that lag by 16 runs from a 100 ' date=' but yet it is very close to a 5wkt + 100 run performance in effect.and those runs where scored at brisk pace too against Imran Khan and co.another one is the 100* + 3 wkts in WI. Though the number of wkts is only 3 , since that came against the best team , i rate it very close to a 100 run + 5 wkt haul. again my intention is just to convey plain facts about which i am aware of. and it is not to win over any body in an argument. based on what data i got i believe Kapil was the better all rounder convincingly ...and you shall stick on with your conclusions... no regrets:winky:[/quote'] See, Botham was a better batsman compared to Kapil, though Kapil had better potential which he did not utilize properly - a batsman capable of getting 129 off Donald and co, when India was tottering at 31/6 (needing another 120 to make RSA bat again) is no lower order batsman. But even at his peak, Kapil dev's batting was highly inconsistent unlike Botham who was very reliable at his peak. Kapil Dev's batting was always a gamble for India, you always knew that either a quick fifty or hundred, or a digit score was waiting to happen when he came to the crease. On the bowling front, Kapil dev was miles ahead of Botham overall, though the stats may not say that. Botham had limited skills as a bowler compared to Kapil, but Botham knew how to maximize his potential during the early third of his career.

[rtmohanlal]

See, Botham was a better batsman compared to Kapil, though Kapil had better potential which he did not utilize properly - a batsman capable of getting 129 off Donald and co, when India was tottering at 31/6 (needing another 120 to make RSA bat again) is no lower order batsman. But even at his peak, Kapil dev's batting was highly inconsistent unlike Botham who was very reliable at his peak. Kapil Dev's batting was always a gamble for India, you always knew that either a quick fifty or hundred, or a digit score was waiting to happen when he came to the crease. On the bowling front, Kapil dev was miles ahead of Botham overall, though the stats may not say that. Botham had limited skills as a bowler compared to Kapil, but Botham knew how to maximize his potential during the early third of his career.

see... mate you are saying that Kapil was inconsistant and Botham was very reliable.but they have 15 and 16 >75 inns each. again they have 35 and 36 >50 inns each. if we go further with >35 as a moderate score Kapil has 58 of them against 52 for Botham.these are plain data based on cricinfo.based on this data i just cannot agree with your theory that Kapil was inconsistant and Botham was very reliable.also i went thru all of Kapil's individual >50 scores.a lot of them were very vital to the team cause w.r.t myself.i mean say the team score is 325 for 3 and then Kapil cashing on that platform to score a 50..then we can call this inns as not that important one. but that is not the case.a major chunk of Kapil's 50s were very vital to the team cause.to score all those at this huge mammoth str: rate in the company of non solid unreliable tail enders deserves huge marks w.r.t myself. based on what data i got i believe Kapil was the better test batsman by a slight margin ...and you shall stick on with your opinion.though i disagree with it i do not have any disrespect either:winky:

[putrevus]

People who are putting down Botham based on his total career stats need to realize his career can be divided in two halfs. First half where he was just brilliant during which he scored 11 hundreds in 51 tests at avg of 39 and took 230 wickets at avg of 23. Second half of his career he became lazy and unfit .He was a complex man who needed a someone to motivate him like he had in Mike Brearley. Under Mike Brearley Botham was nothing short of a superman scoring 7 hundreds and averaging over 41 and took 150 wickets at avg of 18.00 in just 26 tests. That's why I said at his peak Ian Botham was best.

[rtmohanlal]

People who are putting down Botham based on his total career stats need to realize his career can be divided in two halfs. First half where he was just brilliant during which he scored 11 hundreds in 51 tests at avg of 39 and took 230 wickets at avg of 23. Second half of his career he became lazy and unfit .He was a complex man who needed a someone to motivate him like he had in Mike Brearley. Under Mike Brearley Botham was nothing short of a superman scoring 7 hundreds and averaging over 41 and took 150 wickets at avg of 18.00 in just 26 tests. That's why I said at his peak Ian Botham was best.

these sort of things can be said of any cricketer.a lot of cricketers who played with Kapil were of the opinion that he under achieved a lot with the bat.

[Marut]

see... mate you are saying that Kapil was inconsistant and Botham was very reliable.but they have 15 and 16 >75 inns each. again they have 35 and 36 >50 inns each. if we go further with >35 as a moderate score Kapil has 58 of them against 52 for Botham.these are plain data based on cricinfo.based on this data i just cannot agree with your theory that Kapil was inconsistant and Botham was very reliable.also i went thru all of Kapil's individual >50 scores.a lot of them were very vital to the team cause w.r.t myself.i mean say the team score is 325 for 3 and then Kapil cashing on that platform to score a 50..then we can call this inns as not that important one. but that is not the case.a major chunk of Kapil's 50s were very vital to the team cause.to score all those at this huge mammoth str: rate in the company of non solid unreliable tail enders deserves huge marks w.r.t myself. based on what data i got i believe Kapil was the better test batsman by a slight margin ...and you shall stick on with your opinion.though i disagree with it i do not have any disrespect either:winky:

Botham played half the matches in England where batting is usually tougher compared to India. (Historic batting average in India is ~35 while it is ~31 in England) This was one of the reasons that works in favour of kapil in bowling - so why should it not work against him in batting? Botham clearly had to bat under difficult batting conditions more often, like Kapil had to bowl under difficult bowling conditions. An average of 33 for an English batsman is probably as good as 37-38 for a batsman from India.

[rtmohanlal]

If tampering with the ball is going to take him out of the equation when it comes to who is the greatest of the 4. You can take out Botham as well then, who's said many times on commentary, he would stand his ground after edging a ball. I don't have evidence of this, cause it's been during Ashes and other England series. Not sure about Hadlee or Kapil, but to assume that only cheats came from one country is being very naive. I think they cheated back them and regularlry because they could and got away with it. Heck when I'm playing cricket with my friends, I know I'm out, but I'll stand there just so I can have more time wackng the ball as a pose to standing bored on the boundary. But if you put aside the question marks for a moment. The stats do point towards Imran Khan. I showed my Indian mate the stats for the 4 all rounders a while back without putting the names down next to them, and he picked out the stats for Imran.

the situation of standing his ground after edging a ball can't be compared with this case to say the least .

[putrevus]

these sort of things can be said of any cricketer.a lot of cricketers who played with Kapil were of the opinion that he under achieved a lot with the bat.

Yes Kapil did under achieve but difference between underachieving and fading out is different. Botham faded out in his later part of his career as he became fat and unfit. Kapil Dev was a great athlete and was fitter than his younger teammates. At their peak who was greater that's what we are comparing here. If you are comparing career stats Imran always ends up winning as he improved his batting in latter part when he was not the bowler. Sachin ended up with lower average than Kallis but anyone who saw them in prime know who was better.

[rtmohanlal]

Botham played half the matches in England where batting is usually tougher compared to India. (Historic batting average in India is ~35 while it is ~31 in England) This was one of the reasons that works in favour of kapil in bowling - so why should it not work against him in batting? Botham clearly had to bat under difficult batting conditions more often' date=' like Kapil had to bowl under difficult bowling conditions. An average of 33 for an English batsman is probably as good as 37-38 for a batsman from India.[/quote'] might be you are true...also these are speculations on which we can never fully rely upon. and that is why i always was a bit reluctant in this theory of 'had Kapil been in England he would have done better with ball etc etc'. but one thing i believed in was that Kapil was at a fairly bit disadvantage with lack of proper bowling support.here i think Botham was more at benefit because of the company of a better bowler in Bob willis. a strong partner at other end means you are always at fair advantage.if we check Bob's record we can see that he was a perfect partner to Botham. and when he struggled in his only failure place WI , Botham too struggled.another thing is that had Botham bowled the same no: of balls as Kapil did(27740 : 21815 that is Kapil bowled a whopping 5925 more balls than Botham) would he have been able to keep the same avg: of 28.40? i doubt. these are the 2 prime reasons as to why i place Kapil a slightly better bowler too than any other reasons.

[undisputed chap]

kapil was trundler while Imran was genuinely quick with ability to swing it . On top he was quite good with bat while kapil was just a basher. Imran >>>kapil. Imran would definitely make it to AT list of most & in any world 11

[Gunner]

1. Kapil was a much better bowler than Botham. Reason: Kapil at his best was not a one trick pony ( a giant outswinger) like Botham was. Botham never was a complete bowler because he did not bowl inswingers effectively and pretty much entirely relied on setting up the outswinger. On days Botham was fit and his outswinger was going' date=' he was devastating. On other days, he was not so much[/quote'] Not disagreeing with what you're saying per se, but would you also call Dale Steyn a one-trick pony?

[rtmohanlal]

Yes Kapil did under achieve but difference between underachieving and fading out is different. Botham faded out in his later part of his career as he became fat and unfit. Kapil Dev was a great athlete and was fitter than his younger teammates. At their peak who was greater that's what we are comparing here. If you are comparing career stats Imran always ends up winning as he improved his batting in latter part when he was not the bowler. Sachin ended up with lower average than Kallis but anyone who saw them in prime know who was better.

Kapil under achieved because he didn't work hard more on his batting.Botham faded out because he didn't work hard enough to maintain his fitness . the bottom line in both cases is lack of extra hard work.As i said Botham's peak is a highlight which has to be given few extra points just as is the case with Kapils' performance against best team of their time.

[rtmohanlal]

kapil was trundler while Imran was genuinely quick with ability to swing it . On top he was quite good with bat while kapil was just a basher. Imran >>>kapil. Imran would definitely make it to AT list of most & in any world 11

but the base of all is 'ball tampering'. if the base itself is not good then how can the achievements built on that base is good?