Life in prepartition India

[Guest dada_rocks]

Insecurity of what ? I don't HAVE a patriotic bone in me and i do not hide it- there is no insecurity there. And yes, you've abandoned India for living in the west because of PERSONAL gain....i aint saying that is wrong, nothing wrong with it infact- but don't be a hypocrite and pretend to be a patriot when the charm of money is enough for you to ditch India and go to the west. No, that is not a logical argument, since i never called you lot traitors either. This reflects the black-n-white binary mind of yours, where if you are not a patriot, you must be a traitor. That is not true- there are people in between- the indifferent ones, either in thought, in action or both. And yes, its pretty retarded to claim you love your village like a sacchha villager when you ditched it for the city to make more $$. As for parents example- completely irrelevant, since we cannot compare personal familial interactions with interactions with nation/land/city/village.

No doubt u don' have patrictic bone in ursle but u do feel bad about it hence this constant efoort of clubbing everyone with you..... Get it just because I leave away from my village I am no village traitor .. ( I can't think of anybody as of today who has done more for my village than me, despite the fact that at most I might have lived for an year there in last 15 years of my life) Just because I live away from my parenst doesn't mean I have abandoned them .. Similarly just because I live away form my country doesn't mean I have abandoned it..

[Guest dada_rocks]

hahaha. Yes, i wanna feel a little 'less' about myself, since people do go around trying to feel 'less about themselves'. :haha:

lRead again ur reading ability too has gone south just like ur other faculty there are two less there and for a reason..

[Bongosamaj]

but u do feel bad about it hence this constant efoort of clubbing everyone with you

Bad about it ? Pffffffffft... I am GLAD i am not patriotic- i've already stated how 'limited' the concept of patriotism is...i do not covet it, neither do i wish i had it in me to be a patriot.

Get it just because I leave away from my village I am no village traitor ..

I didnt call you a village traitor! Just coz i am saying you aint a patriot doesnt mean i am saying you are a traitor! What kind of fundamentalist thinking is this, where if i say ' you aint a patriot', it means ' you are a traitor' ? No, you are not a traitor for leavig your village for the city. But you aint a 'village patriot' either.

[coffee_rules]

If somoene is wrokig in west how did u conclude from that that he cud not stand free india.... Help me out there.... You fight when there is something to be fought for.. You do not remain in perennial agitated state to show that you can fight when time comes....Apparently ur premise here is that there is sthg to be fought against hence my question, fight what..... All those little fights of social upliftment I have been fightiong better from here than when I was there .. If my radar missed any glaring fight whihc cud only be done by being parked over there then do let us know..

Living in India, with greener options available for you, itself is a fight one has to fight with themselves. Besides, the frustration of having to live in unsatisfactory conditions - traffic, corruption, bureaucracy, caste politics etc., and fighting it out and staying back takes a lot of effort and it seems easier to fly out for greener pastures. But, I have to agree, that not everybody who flies out need to do in frustration itself.

[Bongosamaj]

lRead again ur reading ability too has gone south just like ur other faculty there are two less there and for a reason..

I read it correctly and you said : He has no attachment to any place and he likes to believe whole world is like that so that he cud feel little less less about himsel Which not only is grammatically incorrect, it doesn't make sense either. Hence the smiley. As for my reading faculty- i don't think you wanna open the door to linguistic challenges for your own sake.

[Bongosamaj]

something like Bhains ke samney bhagwat ..

Says the guy who refuses to accept direct verbatim quote from a university mathematics book, quoting page #, author's name, book name & ISBN# in a discussion about mathematics. :haha::haha::haha: As for unmasking you- you were unmasked as a hack the moment you claimed to have degrees in Satistics, Engineering, ComputerScience AND being married AND having watched cricket for 30+ years AND having time to spend here on an internet Mb. Sorry, but you are the LAST person to talk about masking/unmasking.

[Gambit]

Because patriots don't abandon their country for greener pastures of personal financial gain. And if they do' date=' they arn't patriots.[/quote'] Very twisted logic. So a corrupt civil servant living in India is more patriotic than a wealthy NRI sending money to charities?

Inadequacy in 'fitting in' with the society here.

Do you think NRIs in general do not fit in well in western societies?

Good for them if they do all that- and i have nothing against them, except when they try to potray themselves as great patriots of mother India. That is nothing but B$ of the highest order, said only to reinforce their 'indian-ness' in their minds and justify their money-lust over desh-bhakti, despite claiming the opposite.

Again very black and white logic from you. In this age of globalisation, people will get relocated by their companies, setup business ventures outside their country, further their education etc. That doesn't mean they aren't patriotic. Patriotism doesn't mean you dance around with the tricolour tattooed on your forehead. You seem to have this very strange logic of thought that the moment a person starts to live outside India, they aren't patriotic. Very childish.

Ofcourse it has an impact- i said so myself ! But what i ALSO said is that it is NOWHERE the impact of staying in the country and working for its benifit. An electrical engineer who LIVES in INDIA and earns 30,000 rupees per month is doing FAR MORE for INDIA than an EE living in the States earning 10,000 dollars a month. Its fairly straightforward and i refuse to take any of these 'i am a patriot but i left India for more $$' talk seriously...coz it is nothing more than self-justification and make-believe.

How is an EE living in India doing FAR MORE than someone earning outside India? How can you make blanket statements like that? What if the EE in India evades tax and the EE outside India contributes to charities in India commensurate to his salary?

[Gambit]

nothing torn off..i just refuse to entertain Gambo's disingenousness....the moment i saw him say ' this is what you said about Ubuntu on Nov 8' date=' this is what you said on Oct 10th', i knew its pointless- since he ignores the FACT that i've made MANY posts about Ubuntu, saying essentially the same, for the better part of a year now, in the relevant threads, so him drawing a parallel is utterly pointless, since i did not make a one-off comment on the issues he is trying to draw a chronology to.[/quote'] There's shamelessness. Then there's shamelessnes. And then some more. :cantstop:

[Bongosamaj]

So a corrupt civil servant living in India is more patriotic than a wealthy NRI sending money to charities?

no, and nowhere in my statement can that be inferred. I said that if you are a PATRIOT, you do not leave your country for the sake of more $$ in your personal bank account.

Do you think NRIs in general do not fit in well in western societies?

In general, they don't fit very well. Not many NRIs will have white guys or Arabs invited to their homes as friends hanging out. But it depends a lot on the age too, most NRIs who immigrate after their 20s are just insecure guys who paint themselves into a corner because of their inability to fit in.

Patriotism doesn't mean you dance around with the tricolour tattooed on your forehead. You seem to have this very strange logic of thought that the moment a person starts to live outside India, they aren't patriotic

No, what i have in my head is, if you are leaving your motherland for the sake of more $$ elsewhere, you are NOT a patriot. And yes, a person can do FAR MORE staying in his country than simply sending some cash from living overseas. Unless yo wanna argue that an average desi Engineer in America is doing more for India than average desi Engineer in India. If that is your MO, then it is quite hopeless to debate.

How is an EE living in India doing FAR MORE than someone earning outside India? How can you make blanket statements like that? What if the EE in India evades tax and the EE outside India contributes to charities in India commensurate to his salary?

Point is, i am talking of the same person X...EE qualification for eg...he/she can do more for India in India than from out of India. Your tax evasion what if doesn't come into the picture, because if they are crooks, they are gonna be crooks everywhere they go. But yes, when you live in India, you are working there, you are supporting the local economy, you are supporting the setting up of high tech by your involvement and you are imparting skills to the people under you(or even above you). You are taking part in social situations, you are voting and thus playing part in the country's future, you are identifying with social causes and most importantly, you are influencing the people around you. Thats a lot more impact than simply throwing some money around to some charity to make yourself feel better.

[Lurker]

(1) my take is you were most probably not thinking or doing any good for india while being in india either other than paying tax..... Why that stand sud suddenly change just because u came here.. Yes had u been doing sthg and u aborted that for coming to usa then I might see ur point

Actually it is not that at all :P For me personally it was a case of coming to USA or else lose my job(TCS). Within 2 weeks of my assignment at Mumbai I was asked to move to US on a project. Kept pushing it for 2 years further till got a final warning. By this time all of my batchmates had left for USA so that was also a thing to consider. Indeed this is a pertinent point for our times. For our generation, specially those that started working in 90s or early 2000s, working abroad was not entirely different than working at home. Specially if you were working in IT/BPO etc there was a good chance you would have to travel between US/Europe/Australia and India. And obviously if you did that you would ask yourself, "Hey why not stay here for a while". No harm done really but yes I have no qualms in accepting I would have contributed more by being in India. I suppose that goes true for most of us. xxx PS: Why has this serious thread become a slugfest again? :angry_smile:

[Gambit]

no, and nowhere in my statement can that be inferred. I said that if you are a PATRIOT, you do not leave your country for the sake of more $$ in your personal bank account.

That could have been inferred because you made a blanket statement and I presented a scenario. Once again, leaving your country in order to further your career does not make you less of a patriot.

In general, they don't fit very well. Not many NRIs will have white guys or Arabs invited to their homes as friends hanging out. But it depends a lot on the age too, most NRIs who immigrate after their 20s are just insecure guys who paint themselves into a corner because of their inability to fit in.

What is this based on? What are their insecurities? Have they confided Agony aunt CC?

No, what i have in my head is, if you are leaving your motherland for the sake of more $$ elsewhere, you are NOT a patriot.And yes, a person can do FAR MORE staying in his country than simply sending some cash from living overseas. Unless yo wanna argue that an average desi Engineer in America is doing more for India than average desi Engineer in India. If that is your MO, then it is quite hopeless to debate.

What you have in your head is pretty childish logic IMO. As I have said before, leaving your country for furthering your education/career does not make you less of a patriot. If that were the case, quite a few of India's heroes would not be classes as patriots under the CC logic.

But yes, when you live in India, you are working there, you are supporting the local economy, you are supporting the setting up of high tech by your involvement and you are imparting skills to the people under you(or even above you). You are taking part in social situations, you are voting and thus playing part in the country's future, you are identifying with social causes and most importantly, you are influencing the people around you.

An NRI having a business venture in the US importing to India can do the same and can also vote in India. Can also have a factory in India employing Indians.

Thats a lot more impact than simply throwing some money around to some charity to make yourself feel better.

By saying Throwing money to charity almost makes it sound vulgar. And what's wrong in making yourself feel better by helping a charity based in your country? As Phoebe said, there is no such thing as a selfless deed.

[Bongosamaj]

. Once again, leaving your country in order to further your career does not make you less of a patriot.

ofcourse it does. PAtriot is one who puts country first...to seek personal gain first is definitely not patriotic!

What is this based on? What are their insecurities? Have they confided Agony aunt CC?

Too long to tell/explain..perhaps you can read more about it or observe the insecurities in the NRIs when/if you do the 'i immigrate to Canada/US for patriotic reasons and $$$' stuff.

As I have said before, leaving your country for furthering your education/career does not make you less of a patriot

And as i said before, it does if it isnt for educational reasons alone. You leave your country coz XYZ country offered you more $$ for your skills = you aint a patriot. Thats pretty simple.

An NRI having a business venture in the US importing to India can do the same and can also vote in India. Can also have a factory in India employing Indians.

But it is NOT the same because all the points i mentioned are out of PERSONAL involvement...you do not influence people by setting up a trust, you do not impart professional skills by living 5000 kms away from your workers. It should be blitheringly obvious to you that a qualified Indian can do far more for India in India than outside India.

By saying Throwing money to charity almost makes it sound vulgar.

It was meant to be...and if you had any idea how your 'charity money' is used in 99.99% times, you'd probably feel the same way too.

[Gambit]

ofcourse it does. PAtriot is one who puts country first...to seek personal gain first is definitely not patriotic!

By your definition, even army men aren't patriots because at the end of the day it's a job that helps pays the bills.

Too long to tell/explain..perhaps you can read more about it or observe the insecurities in the NRIs when/if you do the 'i immigrate to Canada/US for patriotic reasons and $$$' stuff.

We've got a lot of NRIs here. Why don't your share the insecurities and let's see how many agree with your 'observations'

And as i said before, it does.

No it doesn't. No point in debating this really because you've got a binary 0 or 1 logic applying here.

But it is NOT the same because all the points i mentioned are out of PERSONAL involvement...you do not influence people by setting up a trust, you do not impart professional skills by living 5000 kms away from your workers.

LOL. So a businessman NRI setting up a factory doesn't influence others skills by creating wealth and employment? Never teach economics to anyone. :D PS - I know. You'll now tell me that you are currently working with Amartya Sen and the Fed to solve the US sub prime disaster. :)

It should be blitheringly obvious to you that a qualified Indian can do far more for India in India than outside India.

ANd it should be blitheringly obvious to you how illogical what you say about patriots and non patriots sounds.

It was meant to be...and if you had any idea how your 'charity money' is used in 99.99% times, you'd probably feel the same way too.

You seem to have no clue how transparent most of the major charities are today.

[Lurker]

We've got a lot of NRIs here. Why don't your share the insecurities and let's see how many agree with your 'observations'

Gambo, Do you differentiate between a NRI and an Indian that takes up American/English citizenship? Are they same or different in your eyes? xxx

[Bongosamaj]

ANd it should be blitheringly obvious to you how illogical what you say about patriots and non patriots sounds.

So you wanna argue that people who leave their country simply for the sake of more money are just as patriotic as the ones who stay IN the country and help it out ? Righto then- carry on. Its nothing but you trying to massage the egos of the NRIs here, keeping up appearances. But nomatter how much you twist and turn, you cannot claim patriotism to those who leave their country solely for the purpose of making more money overseas.

[Gambit]

Gambo, Do you differentiate between a NRI and an Indian that takes up American/English citizenship? Are they same or different in your eyes? xxx

Lurker, for me NRI is Indian with Indian passport living outside India. Not talking about Indians who have taken citizenship of other countries. If they have done that, then IMO their allegiances lie with THAT country.

[Lurker]

Lurker' date=' for me NRI is Indian with Indian passport living outside India. Not talking about Indians who have taken citizenship of other countries. If they have done that, then IMO their allegiances lie with THAT country.[/quote'] And there-in lies a catch Gambo. Most NRIs today belong to the latter category. I am not sure of the situation in UK but in most NRI parties in USA the chief topics of conversation are: Green Card, Bollywood, US Citizenship, Cricket, Visa, Green card, Bollywood. Your visualization of NRI - an Indian that is essentially global in nature but carries Indian passport - is in vast minority as compared to those who were born Indian, became an NRI and are either on the road to become American/English or are already there by now. Question is - Do you think they(those who turned in their Indian passports) are unpatriotic Indians? xxx

[Gambit]

So you wanna argue that people who leave their country simply for the sake of more money are just as patriotic as the ones who stay IN the country and help it out ? Righto then- carry on.

As I said before, "leaving for money" sounds pretty childish. I've said that people move coz of their companies, further their career, acquire skills before coming back, gain some exposure. You only seem to be fixated with this money angle in your head. Secondly, I never made swooping blanket statements like you saying people who leave are just as patriotic or more patriotic than people in India. I rebutted your outrageous claim that people outside India cannot be patriotic.

Its nothing but you trying to massage the egos of the NRIs here, keeping up appearances. But nomatter how much you twist and turn, you cannot claim patriotism to those who leave their country solely for the purpose of making more money overseas.

No matter how much you twist, turn and do the boogie, you cannot sell your if you aren't in India, you aren't allowed to be patriotic logic.

[Bongosamaj]

As I said before, "leaving for money" sounds pretty childish

No, that is the FUNDAMENTAL bottomline to 99.999% NRIs who go overseas for jobs/stay on after education.

I rebutted your outrageous claim that people outside India cannot be patriotic.

When you leave the country for money, as most NRIs do, you have no claims to patriotism, unless it is for the country you are residing in. Thats the bottomline and saying your patriotic an Indian you are when you don't even live in India is as cut and dried as it gets for hypocritical.

you cannot sell your if you aren't in India, you aren't allowed to be patriotic logic.

Don't twist my words- i said those who leave the country for money. Which happens to be 99.999999999% of NRIs. And furthermore, you are out of your depth here- you are commenting on the nature of NRIs, when i doubt you've had interactions with more than a handful of them at best.

[Gambit]

And there-in lies a catch Gambo. Most NRIs today belong to the latter category. I am not sure of the situation in UK but in most NRI parties in USA the chief topics of conversation are: Green Card, Bollywood, US Citizenship, Cricket, Visa, Green card, Bollywood. Your visualization of NRI - an Indian that is essentially global in nature but carries Indian passport - is in vast minority as compared to those who were born Indian, became an NRI and are either on the road to become American/English or are already there by now.

In this era of globalisation, I guess people want to keep their options open vis a vis green card etc. And plus there's dual c'ship available as well. But I specifically talking about someone like you(gathering from what you've said in the past). Someone who's outside India for work, gaining intl experience and planning to go back in the near future.

Question is - Do you think they(those who turned in their Indian passports) are unpatriotic Indians? xxx

For me, they shouldn't be classed as Indians and hence any show of patriotism towards India from them isn't really apt as their allegiances should lie with their adopted country.