What's our bowling selection criteria?

[Shivaji bhonsle]

Johinder Sharma was our highest wicket taker few years back. should we have persisted with him?

[renjith]

Yes but there are various things to take in to consideration like opp' date='pitches,potential andmost importantly ROLE. I feel rishi dhawan might be in contention of allrounder not specialist bowler.[/quote'] Exactly, stats is only one of the criteria. There are so many other factors considered for selection. That is why we hve human beings as selectors and not software programs.

[Crookbond]

UG , Two points - (1) Don't use ONLY bowling averages to filter out potential prospects and (2) Don't compare bowling averages across countries For example - India vs Australia

[Ultimate_Game]

UG ' date=' Two points - (1) Don't use ONLY bowling averages to filter out potential prospects and (2) Don't compare bowling averages across countries For example - India vs Australia[/quote'] When your top domestic performers are not even considered for selection and others like Binny and folks averaging 37 get a chance ahead of them, it sets of alarm bells. No wonder we suck at picking 20 wkts in a Test when the folks selected in the Test team can't even do that at domestic level.

[Crookbond]

When your top domestic performers are not even considered for selection and others like Binny and folks averaging 37 get a chance ahead of them' date= it sets of alarm bells. No wonder we suck at picking 20 wkts in a Test when the folks selected in the Test team can't even do that at domestic level.

People with lower bowling averages aren't necessarily top performers. You wouldn't require selectors otherwise - one could just filter with bowling averages.

[express bowling]

I was checking domestic records of great players and also matchwinners in international cricket. Many had good domestic records but many did not Players with first class averages of less than 50 Sehwag Kohli Viv Richards Michael Clarke Gayle Gower Gilchrist Graeme Smith Greenidge Haynes Boon Bell Pietersen McCullum Cook Gooch Joe Root Mark Tailorman Slater Special low ones include Gower 40, McCullum 37, Tailor 42, Boon 44, Slater 41, Greenidge 46, Haynes 46, Gayle 45. Gilchrist 44. The assumption that any potentially good batsmen at international should have at least an average of 50 ....would result in these players never getting selected for tests. The great Sunil Gavaskar, with FC average of 51, is way behind Rohit Sharma, Abhinav Mukund and co.

[express bowling]

Top international pacers with first class averages in the high twenties or higher Mitchell Johnson Kapil Dev Harbhajan Singh Zaheer Gillespie Morkel Anderson Broad Lee Botham Johnson has a first class average of 28.5 bowling in bouncy Australia. Ryan Harris, with an ODI average of 19 ... has a List A average of 28. Vinay Kumar has test average of 73 but FC average of 24 ..comfortably better than Kapil, Zak, Srinath, Bhajji.

[bharat297]

Unfortunately, because our domestic competition is such rubbish, it's hard to gauge bowling performances based on domestic stats. It's not surprising that genuine quicks like Aaron and Umesh have been given a longer rope than consistent domestic performers like Dinda and Pankaj. Just look at the pace difference. It's more of an indication of how bad our domestic competition is.

[express bowling]

Unfortunately, because our domestic competition is such rubbish, it's hard to gauge bowling performances based on domestic stats. It's not surprising that genuine quicks like Aaron and Umesh have been given a longer rope than consistent domestic performers like Dinda and Pankaj. Just look at the pace difference. It's more of an indication of how bad our domestic competition is.

Just look at the pace of some of our top Ranji pacers ....Vinay, Joginder Sharma, Dhawan, Vikramjit Malik ...even Abhishek Nayar picks up many Ranji wickets often. Sourav Ganguly was once a "good" Ranji pacer. There are so many " pacers " bowling below 120 k and still picking up wickets.

[bharat297]

Just look at the pace of some of our top Ranji pacers ....Vinay' date=' Joginder Sharma, Dhawan, Vikramjit Malik ...even Abhishek Nayar picks up many Ranji wickets often. Sourav Ganguly was once a "good" Ranji pacer. There are so many " pacers " bowling below 120 k and still picking up wickets.[/quote'] Exactly ... Running in and bowling fast wont get you wickets on Ranji pitches. Therefore smart bowlers won't do that. They will start bowling cutters and relying on changes of pace and swing. As a result, they lose the ability to bowl fast.

[rkt.india]

Sandeep has been around for 3-4 years now. He won us the u-19 WC and has proven to be good enough at domestic level since then. If you don't give him a go when he deserves he may start stagnating. He has proven he deserves a chance with his performance at domestic level' date=' along with Rishi Dhawan, let's not take that away from him. Hope our selectors show some faith in our FC performers else folks will start chasing IPL instead of focusing on domestic cricket.[/quote'] Only 2 years, debuted n 2012, he is only 20. No fast bowler should be picked before 22-23 years of age.

[rkt.india]

I'm all for dropping Ishant as well and would have dropped him long time back. He needs to hit domestic cricket and get better as well. Potential is one thing but you cannot discard your consistent domestic performers. If Sandeep and Dhawan average 22 or 23 consistently over their careers' date=' they must have some skills and must be good. It's not as if I'm talking about one odd year. I'm talking about the performance throughout their career and they have performed well. This shows they can adapt and deserve to get a shot. But if you give chances to likes of Binny and Aaron ahead of them you will eventually break them.[/quote'] When Ishant was picked, he was averaging 20 in FC cricket.

[bharat297]

When Ishant was picked' date=' he was averaging 20 in FC cricket.[/quote'] He also hadn't played many first class matches. I understand the point that Ultimate_Game is making and it's correct, but the problem is that our domestic competition is of such a poor quality that it makes selection based on domestic cricket really difficult. Binny was a dumb selection, I agree but Aaron is the first bowler we've had in a long time that can consistently bowl in the high 140s. There's no reward in domestic cricket for pace because the pitches are so placid, so having Aaron play 4-5 years in domestic cricket could see him end up losing his place. In away Test matches, it's a different story. It's the same story with Umesh.

[rkt.india]

He also hadn't played many first class matches. I understand the point that Ultimate_Game is making and it's correct, but the problem is that our domestic competition is of such a poor quality that it makes selection based on domestic cricket really difficult. Binny was a dumb selection, I agree but Aaron is the first bowler we've had in a long time that can consistently bowl in the high 140s. There's no reward in domestic cricket for pace because the pitches are so placid, so having Aaron play 4-5 years in domestic cricket could see him end up losing his place. In away Test matches, it's a different story. It's the same story with Umesh.

UG is talking about average of 37. I have problem with this. His real FC career started last year when first time he played without back injuries, averaged 20. Before that his FC matches were interrupted with injuries. He played 10 matches in a span of 3 years 2008 to 2011 and was raw too. In such a sceanario, it is understandable that he couldnt do as good as he could.

[bharat297]

UG is talking about average of 37. I have problem with this. His real FC career started last year when first time he played without back injuries' date=' averaged 20. Before that his FC matches were interrupted with injuries. He played 10 matches in a span of 3 years 2008 to 2011 and was raw too. In such a sceanario, it is understandable that he couldnt do as good as he could.[/quote'] Yeah I agree with you. That was where the selectors made a judgement call. That's why selectors are human beings and not computer algorithms. But I think UG's point was that it's unfair to the consistent domestic performers like Dhawan and Sandeep, which is a fair point.

[dragonfly]

No criteria needed. Should just be able to roll their arms. Ain't taking 20 wickets irrespective of who is selected.

[rkt.india]

Yeah I agree with you. That was where the selectors made a judgement call. That's why selectors are human beings and not computer algorithms. But I think UG's point was that it's unfair to the consistent domestic performers like Dhawan and Sandeep, which is a fair point.

But in no country players are selected just based on stats, no where. England a lot of swing bowlers averaging better than Likes of Broad, Finn, etc. Same in Australia. Michael debuted when he averages 36 in FC ignoring likes of Hussey, Hodge who were piling on runs at that time.

[bharat297]

But in no country players are selected just based on stats' date=' no where. England a lot of swing bowlers averaging better than Likes of Broad, Finn, etc. Same in Australia. Michael debuted when he averages 36 in FC ignoring likes of Hussey, Hodge who were piling on runs at that time.[/quote'] Again ... I agree with you, but it doesn't change the fact that it's unfair to those consistent domestic performers because no matter what they do they will not get selected. I am just saying that I feel sorry for them. I am not saying that I would select them. I would much rather select a guy thats 140+ consistently and get someone to work with him to become more accurate. You can teach accuracy, swing, seam, etc. You can't teach raw pace. That's what Aaron and Umesh have and that's why they keep getting chances over the likes of Dhawan and Sharma.

[tweaker]

B Kumar was picked in the squad inspite of his injury.When the selectors were knowing he will not play in 2 tests,how was he selected for such a high profile series

[bowl_out]

When your top domestic performers are not even considered for selection and others like Binny and folks averaging 37 get a chance ahead of them' date=' it sets of alarm bells. No wonder we suck at picking 20 wkts in a Test when the folks selected in the Test team can't even do that at domestic level.[/quote'] Badrinath had a domestic average of 60, but Yuvraj, Raina, Mooli with averages of 35-40 in domestic got selected ahead of him... It is not all about numbers.