BBC Greatest ODI XI

[Marut]

Hayden did very well India at least for one tour' date=' he was vastly different to Dravid, Haydon dominated attacks as an opener and scored fast, Dravid wore the bowlers down and cashed in, I think Dravid was the better bat overall, but to say they shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence is idiotic.[/quote'] Dravid played in a distinctly weaker bowling side and a #3 for such a side carries an enormous responsibility on his shoulders. For #1 batsman there has been a lot of aggressive batsmen over the past two decades - Sehwag, Haydos, Smith, Gayle, Dilshan, Warner, Jayasuriya etc. You think there is such a huge number of aggressive #3 in cricket? What do you think is the reason? Batting as an opener has become much easier in the modern age compared to age of Gavaskars and Boons. The wickets are flatter, the ball is hard and comes on to the bat and it is relatively easier to make runs at this slot even if you don't have the best techniques. #3 on the hand has retained its old character to this day.

[Marut]

people calling dravid selfish:WTF:

:hysterical::hysterical: They claim that he ate away lots of balls in test matches, and forced draws from winning positions. Curious to know which these matches were (how many out of 164 matches?), where India failed to win because Dravid hogged the strike without scoring. Most of Dravid's slow scoring innings actually drew matches from potentially losing positions. If India fail to win, it is usually because our batsmen crumble or bowlers fail to deliver. Don't remember any matches where Dravid's slow knocks cost us matches. (there could be one or two matches like this, in his 164 matches though)

[rtmohanlal]

Strike rate is not a gold standard to compare test batsmen - Lara's strike rates do not necessarily make him better than tendulkar. But for lower order test batsmen strike rates are important because they can make quick runs before the team is bowled out. Kapil dev with tail can put on 100 runs before the opponent can even realize it. Once he hit 4 successive sixes in England to avoid a follow on. I was hearing the commentary back then. India needed twenty four runs to avoid the follow on and Kapil hit a six. The commentator then said - "Can India avoid follow on? There is only one batsman in the world who can do this ." The next three balls were dispatched over the fence by Dev! Kapil did this without ever exposing the #11 batsman in his own style. His knock in SA was truly unbelievable - and Kapil at this time was in terminal decline, yet he produced that blinder on a difficult batting wicket that yielded low scores. Imran can only dream of playing such a test knock, carrying the team from 6/31 to 10/215 in double quick time, getting 129 runs out of last 175 runs scored by the team. http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63588.html

str: rate for a top order batsman in general is not that important.but , if the batsman is a Viv or Sehwag or Warner it counts because on their day they can single handedly take the game from the opposition .For eg: take the last SAF-AUS series in SAF. THE main difference batting wise was David Warner.SAF was always under pressure because of Warner's onslaught from the word go. w.r.t. lower order, str: rate is even more important, I would say.and this is exactly one of the main reasons for me as to why I place Kapil as convincingly better test batsman than Imran despite the general theory that there is nothing much that separates them.Kapil's performance vs WI in WI and also his superior quality of mammoth knocks on the average when compared to that of Imran's adds to my thinking.Kapil with 80.91 str: rate often took game away from the opposition creating utter confusion among the bowlers.whether India was able to take advantage or not of that is irrevelant because that depended on the over all strength of the team. I still remember the match vs Zim in ZIM in early 2000s. till that time India was never able to win a test match abroad for quite some time.the match was in the balance.Suddenly Harbhajan came and scored a run a ball 60 odd against all odds.AND that tilted the match completely in India's favour.Zim BOWLERS got into a state of utter confusion because of this unexpected onslaught from Harbhajan.By the time they recovered , the match was out of their hand. this is exactly the reason as to why I find a lower order blaster much more valuable than a slow accumulator who more or less puts the same amount of runs/inns.

[Precambrian]

ODI XI thread and we have pages discussing test strike rates :facepalm: The team selected by BBC is basically a big fat joke. Any team without the greatest middle order ODI batsman in history (Dhoni) is a joke. My side would be: Sanath Jayasurya (the post 1995 version) Revolutionised concept of opening batting in ODIs. World Cup winner. Consistent performer in World cups and crunch games. Even at 40 yrs of age could turn games by his sheer batting efforts. Handy left arm spinner as well. Good fielder. Sachin Tendulkar No need to explain. Viv Richards No need to explain Virat Kohli AB Devillliers Their records speak for themselves really. Further, both are electric fielders. An ATG team needs to have good fielders as well. An often overlooked part while selecting such teams. In any case, their batting alone would get them in any ATG team in my opinion. MS Dhoni The best ODI middle order batsman in history. Keeper. Captain. Has a penchant for winning ICC trophies. Lance Klusener Left field selection. But a batting average of 41 with a SR of over 90 in an age where an avg of 35 and a SR of 75 would guarantee you as a batsman in any side alone makes his case. Add to it ability to perform under extreme pressure. Add to it nearly 200 ODI wickets at an average under 30 and that makes him the obligatory allrounder in this team Wasim Akram 1992 World cup. 500 wickets @ ER of 3.69. Arguably best ODI fast bowler in history. Joel Garner Metronome, I actually wanted to go for a speedbeast, but then I can't find ATG speedbeasts. This guy is a proven ODI champion. Muthiah Muralitharan Without doubt the greatest ODI bowler in history. Glenn McGrath No need to explain.

[rkt.india]

Ptecambrian, you forgot Brett Lee ATG in ODIs. One of the top 3 pacers ever in ODIs. Look at his ODI record.

[Precambrian]

Ptecambrian' date=' you forgot Brett Lee ATG in ODIs. One of the top 3 pacers ever in ODIs. Look at his ODI record.[/quote'] I didn't forget at all. I don't for a second discredit his record as well. I was torn between going for Garner and Lee. But went for the former - Garner's numbers are unbelievable, average of 18 odd with ER of 3. And its not just a freak thing, his list A numbers are even better! Still fair point - its 50-50 really for me.

[Marut]

ODI XI thread and we have pages discussing test strike rates :facepalm: The team selected by BBC is basically a big fat joke. Any team without the greatest middle order ODI batsman in history (Dhoni) is a joke. My side would be: Sanath Jayasurya (the post 1995 version) Revolutionised concept of opening batting in ODIs. World Cup winner. Consistent performer in World cups and crunch games. Even at 40 yrs of age could turn games by his sheer batting efforts. Handy left arm spinner as well. Good fielder. Sachin Tendulkar No need to explain. Viv Richards No need to explain Virat Kohli AB Devillliers Their records speak for themselves really. Further, both are electric fielders. An ATG team needs to have good fielders as well. An often overlooked part while selecting such teams. In any case, their batting alone would get them in any ATG team in my opinion. MS Dhoni The best ODI middle order batsman in history. Keeper. Captain. Has a penchant for winning ICC trophies. Lance Klusener Left field selection. But a batting average of 41 with a SR of over 90 in an age where an avg of 35 and a SR of 75 would guarantee you as a batsman in any side alone makes his case. Add to it ability to perform under extreme pressure. Add to it nearly 200 ODI wickets at an average under 30 and that makes him the obligatory allrounder in this team Wasim Akram 1992 World cup. 500 wickets @ ER of 3.69. Arguably best ODI fast bowler in history. Joel Garner Metronome, I actually wanted to go for a speedbeast, but then I can't find ATG speedbeasts. This guy is a proven ODI champion. Muthiah Muralitharan Without doubt the greatest ODI bowler in history. Glenn McGrath No need to explain.

The reason Klusener does not make lists is because Klusener was not a avg 41 s/r 90 batsman. Those inflated averages come from a two year peak in which he averaged 94@100+ (including a six month peak of 140@122), going not out most of the time (he has innumerable scores like 21*, 27*, 33*, 35* etc during this period). He had just two hundreds and 19 fifties in 171 matches, surely not the typical 40 average batsman by any stretch of imagination.

[Precambrian]

The reason Klusener does not make lists is because Klusener was not a avg 41 s/r 90 batsman. Those inflated averages come from a two year peak in which he averaged 94@100+ (including a six month peak of 140@122)' date=' going not out most of the time (he has innumerable scores like 21*, 27*, 33*, 35* etc during this period). He had just two hundreds and 19 fifties in 171 matches, surely not the typical 40 average batsman by any stretch of imagination.[/quote'] Pretty much every batsman goes through peaks and troughs. Kluseners career spanned 8 years and I think that's good enough indicator for me to consider him. Again, I had said it's a left field selection, one that compromised on longetivity a tad bit.

[sweetaskandy]

Klusener doesnt belong at #7 but Dev does? I cant believe this. Everyone is allowed his POV but blind nationalism is silly.

[zen]

Klusener doesnt belong at #7 but Dev does? I cant believe this. Everyone is allowed his POV but blind nationalism is silly.

with out bottlecaps, KD could do this (from the last few years of his career) : Y8BMdZmmNRU and this with his batting (great against both pace and spin): Ym5EdX7dkMg :agree:

[zen]

huyKUbA37Yc Cricket's greatest - Kapil Dev

[MCGGG]

ODI XI thread and we have pages discussing test strike rates :facepalm: The team selected by BBC is basically a big fat joke. Any team without the greatest middle order ODI batsman in history (Dhoni) is a joke. My side would be: Sanath Jayasurya (the post 1995 version) Revolutionised concept of opening batting in ODIs. World Cup winner. Consistent performer in World cups and crunch games. Even at 40 yrs of age could turn games by his sheer batting efforts. Handy left arm spinner as well. Good fielder. Sachin Tendulkar No need to explain. Viv Richards No need to explain Virat Kohli AB Devillliers Their records speak for themselves really. Further, both are electric fielders. An ATG team needs to have good fielders as well. An often overlooked part while selecting such teams. In any case, their batting alone would get them in any ATG team in my opinion. MS Dhoni The best ODI middle order batsman in history. Keeper. Captain. Has a penchant for winning ICC trophies. Lance Klusener Left field selection. But a batting average of 41 with a SR of over 90 in an age where an avg of 35 and a SR of 75 would guarantee you as a batsman in any side alone makes his case. Add to it ability to perform under extreme pressure. Add to it nearly 200 ODI wickets at an average under 30 and that makes him the obligatory allrounder in this team Wasim Akram 1992 World cup. 500 wickets @ ER of 3.69. Arguably best ODI fast bowler in history. Joel Garner Metronome, I actually wanted to go for a speedbeast, but then I can't find ATG speedbeasts. This guy is a proven ODI champion. Muthiah Muralitharan Without doubt the greatest ODI bowler in history. Glenn McGrath No need to explain.

Dhoni before Gilchrist? And Dhonis only won the one ICC trophy that matters, Gilchrist won 3 of them.

[sweetaskandy]

with out bottlecaps, KD could do this (from the last few years of his career) : Y8BMdZmmNRU and this with his batting (great against both pace and spin): Ym5EdX7dkMg :agree:

I saw him play, not just clips either. LK is as valid a #7 as him. Much better bat and a decent 5th bowler. :two_thumbs_up:

[zen]

I saw him play, not just clips either. LK is as valid a #7 as him. Much better bat and a decent 5th bowler. :two_thumbs_up:

It depends upon one's perspective. I have no objection to someone picking LK .... However, LK is not considered as an ATG. While there are documentaries on KD's greatness as he is in the ATG league (but ppl can chose to ignore that too as he happens to be an Ind player) :winky:

[sweetaskandy]

No one said he wasn't good. There are simply better choices for the AR slot.

[Precambrian]

Dhoni before Gilchrist? And Dhonis only won the one ICC trophy that matters' date=' Gilchrist won 3 of them.[/quote'] Yes Dhoni before Gilchrist - Problem? Tom Moody is a world cup winner. Doesn't make him an ATG. Dhoni has won 3 ICC trophies already.

[AmreekanDesi]

Dunno how i missed the thread before but how the feck are Gayle and Lee in it? And no Ponting Kallis too. Id swap him with any of Imran, Kapil, Hadlee or Botham

[MCGGG]

Yes Dhoni before Gilchrist - Problem? Tom Moody is a world cup winner. Doesn't make him an ATG. Dhoni has won 3 ICC trophies already.

I think it's you who has the problem if you rate Dhoni ahead of the Destroyer..

[rkt.india]

I didn't forget at all. I don't for a second discredit his record as well. I was torn between going for Garner and Lee. But went for the former - Garner's numbers are unbelievable, average of 18 odd with ER of 3. And its not just a freak thing, his list A numbers are even better! Still fair point - its 50-50 really for me.

Carey bhai Garner played in 70-80s when ODIs were played as test matches.

[zen]

No one said he wasn't good. There are simply better choices for the AR slot.

"Better choices" is not a suitable phrase to use as an ATG player is capable of walking in to any side depending up on the balance required in that team. "More suitable depending up on the balance of a side" is a more appropriate phrase .... However, I can see where you coming from. As a SL fan, you are probably used to thinking in that way because SL hasn't produced a truly #1 cricketer and are used to seeing "better choices". For e.g. SL's best cricketer Murali gets overshadowed by Warne. On top of that many don't even rate Murali as a proper bowler :P