Precambrian Posted March 27, 2015 Author Share Posted March 27, 2015 After 2003' date=' Few came in and out, There was a gap, Obviously after 2Ws retired no one was going to take anything overnight, Gul and Akhtar with Asif however still did pretry well and from 2008 guys like Amir came in. And Another thing is if you point my post out that you are talking about Test Cricket then wasnt it clearly mentioned in the same post that Asif was in top 5 TEST bowlers under rankings at time he was banned?[/quote'] Finally a sane post. Yeah, I do understand that there has been a gap since the Ws left, but the gap has been there for far too long now. And precisely this is what I am emphasizing. That Pakistan doesn't have a stream of never ending pace bowlers who turn up. That is a myth. Pretenders come and exit rather quickly. Gul for all the workhorse he was, was not anywhere near a good test bowler. Just a mediocre one who was persisted with because Pakistan lacked options. Asif was ranked 5 on basis of a small sample of performances, he played just 23 tests in his whole career. Link to comment
Autonomous Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Finally a sane post. Yeah, I do understand that there has been a gap since the Ws left, but the gap has been there for far too long now. And precisely this is what I am emphasizing. That Pakistan doesn't have a stream of never ending pace bowlers who turn up. That is a myth. Pretenders come and exit rather quickly. Gul for all the workhorse he was, was not anywhere near a good test bowler. Just a mediocre one who was persisted with because Pakistan lacked options. Asif was ranked 5 on basis of a small sample of performances, he played just 23 tests in his whole career. Well thats a bigger achievement, Just 23 matches and you are in Top 5 of the world. Your point at you. Link to comment
Autonomous Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Never ending in sense that it continues on, Even with that bit of pause or growth the circle still revolves. Link to comment
Precambrian Posted March 27, 2015 Author Share Posted March 27, 2015 Junaid Khan got 3fer in first Test' date=' With 4 Wickets in total as Pakistan won. Ajmal and Babar bowled well to overshadow him and probably was more of slower track with spinners getting more in game. While in second test he got to bowl only in one innings, And that was only 2 match series, As i said sample is too small and whenever time to time JK has bowled very decently.[/quote'] I know Pakistan won the first test and lost the next one by an innings. I now understand your standards for performance is really low since you are talking up "3fers" as some sort of big achievement. :cantstop: Steyn averaged 22, Philander 23, heck even Mohammad Irfan averaged 26 in that test series. Junaid Khan however averaged 54. Link to comment
Precambrian Posted March 27, 2015 Author Share Posted March 27, 2015 Well thats a bigger achievement' date=' Just 23 matches and you are in Top 5 of the world. Your point at you.[/quote'] :hysterical: Anyone can do that with a small string of performances. For a short period, Ishant Sharma was ranked in top 7 in the world in tests as well. :proud: Link to comment
badmash Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 :hysterical: Anyone can do that with a small string of performances. For a short period' date=' Ishant Sharma was ranked in top 7 in the world in tests as well. :proud:[/quote'] Bro it happens. Shami tried bowling those bouncers to Watson and Australia just like Riaz, but got clobbered. Just deal with it. Just deal with the fact that even after pak's whole pace battery got demolished before the worldcup, they managed to build a decent one in just 15-20 days. #ProductionLine Link to comment
jonas10 Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 More based on perceptions than actual performances. These guys again sizzle for a short time but never go on to become sustained performers over a reasonable period, do they? Check out the stats of all Pak bowlers in the last 12 years - i.e since the two Ws left. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;spanmin1=01+Mar+2003;spanval1=span;team=7;template=results;type=bowling The top 2 are spinners, and Umar Gul is no.3 and Mohammad Sami is at no.8! There is not a single pace bowler with sustained success (over 4-5 yrs) and is also clearly evident from the number of matches/wickets they have taken. Doesnt matter they churn out fast bowlers like India churns out batsmen. I would have loved to have Wahab in the semis vs Australia. Pace matters bowling 150km consistently with swing thats very rare. Youre focusing too much on stats to show this speed and swing is irrelevant as opposed to ability to do so in the first place. The Pak fast bowlers have the ability to frequently hit 150 with control. Lets not pretend we wouldnt be salivating if they wore a blue jersey. Link to comment
jonas10 Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Can you show me India's top wicket takers please? And also, you're forgetting Mohammad Asif, and Mohammad Amir is coming back this year. Though it's another thing that he himself ruined his own career. Imagine a bowling line up of Amir, Junaid, Wahab, Irfan... I agree with you but they lack a captain like Dhoni. That is a gorgeous test bowling lineup that Indians would go crazy for so I dont know why we want to have this farce where we pretend Pak bowlers dont have a tremendous amount of talent. They do. Problem is Pak players are awful under pressure and in big match situations and lack leadership. You have a guy like Dhoni captaining them and some batsmen so they dont have to defend 213 scores theyd be a fantastic side. Link to comment
Vilander Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Doesnt matter they churn out fast bowlers like India churns out batsmen. I would have loved to have Wahab in the semis vs Australia. Pace matters bowling 150km consistently with swing thats very rare. Youre focusing too much on stats to show this speed and swing is irrelevant as opposed to ability to do so in the first place. The Pak fast bowlers have the ability to frequently hit 150 with control. Lets not pretend we wouldnt be salivating if they wore a blue jersey. lol do you also think its because they eat 'meat'..:haha: what frequently hit 150...like 2 balls in the WC frequently.. Link to comment
jonas10 Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Regarding the OPs title about it being BS that pak always produces good fast bowlers its somewhat of a loaded question. First of all what is quote unquote good. Yes their averages may not be as good as a M Shammi or Yadav. Lets keep in mind Dhoni would lynch Yadav if he genuinely bowled fast. Wahab regardless of what his stats say was able to do something to Australia no Indian seamer to date was able to do. Link to comment
jonas10 Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 lol do you also think its because they eat 'meat'..:haha: what frequently hit 150...like 2 balls in the WC frequently.. I think its the same reason youre going to see dozens of young Indian wicketkeepers coming up in India. They have an idol Dhoni they aspire to and all want to be keepers. Same thing in Pak. Lots of little boys grew up wanting to be an Imran, Wasim, Waqar, Akthar etc. As I said if you want to talk stats...yes their stats arnt gorgeous. Fast bowling is like that...spinners will usually have the better figures. Point remains Pak has players that can consistently hit 150KM and put on a spell like Wahab. Thats straight ability. Either you can do it or you cant and very very few seamers in the world can do that. Link to comment
Vilander Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 I think its the same reason youre going to see dozens of young Indian wicketkeepers coming up in India. They have an idol Dhoni they aspire to and all want to be keepers. Same thing in Pak. Lots of little boys grew up wanting to be an Imran, Wasim, Waqar, Akthar etc. As I said if you want to talk stats...yes their stats arnt gorgeous. Fast bowling is like that...spinners will usually have the better figures. Point remains Pak has players that can consistently hit 150KM and put on a spell like Wahab. Thats straight ability. Either you can do it or you cant and very very few seamers in the world can do that. you base your entire inference that pak produces fast bowlers continuously based on 2 overs from Wahab riaz to Watson. Dude do you understand sampling bias. Link to comment
ExpressPace Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 you base your entire inference that pak produces fast bowlers continuously based on 2 overs from Wahab riaz to Watson. Dude do you understand sampling bias. Did you not see the game against SA, oh wait why would you? Worry about your own tundlers. At least we gave Aussies a fight and didn't bendover backwards after first 5 overs. Link to comment
vvvslaxman Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 I have played with few padosis. Even the weakest guy had 30 yard run up . May be it is the culture. They like to run in and bowl fast. May be it is the tape ball culture.Same tape ball culture that ruined their batting. Link to comment
Vilander Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Did you not see the game against SA, oh wait why would you? Worry about your own tundlers. At least we gave Aussies a fight and didn't bendover backwards after first 5 overs. Dont be angry. Wahab is good bowler, it was a very good spell. But it does not prove that pak constantly produces fast bowlers. There is lots of clustering illusion here, confirmation and regressive biases, the things you guys argue with are very weak in an argument. I am sorry, your bowlers are not that good.. Link to comment
vijay50 Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 you base your entire inference that pak produces fast bowlers continuously based on 2 overs from Wahab riaz to Watson. Dude do you understand sampling bias. This. Again, this Wahab was canned by Kohli in Subcontinent.This is probably one of those one off by Riaz.Even Sreesanth made Kallis dance in SA and Ishant made Ponting dance in one off spell in Aus.But the question is whether they were able to sustain it throughout the career? Seenu mama (Precambrian annachi) has shown with stats that there is no sustained excellence from Pakistan bowlers over years.I see some very childish arguments from Pakistani posters, abusing the anna. Autonomous makes some good points with reasons. I did look at the numbers of annachi.My take is that Pak bowlers regress over 4-5 years and once they start regressing/injuries/fixing issues they are replaced by next set of bowlers.That's why you don't see sustained excellence over years after Wasim or Waqar. Precambrian, good thread and arguments.Hats off. Link to comment
jonas10 Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 you base your entire inference that pak produces fast bowlers continuously based on 2 overs from Wahab riaz to Watson. Dude do you understand sampling bias. No. Are you saying Junaid, Irfan, Wahab, Amir etc all cant hit 150...im using Wahab as its all fresh in our memory and Im surprised someone would bring such a silly argument up so soon after. Please remind me when Brian Lara offered to pay for Ishant Sharmas aggressive behavior and praised his fast bowling spell from hell. Link to comment
jonas10 Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 This. Again' date=' [b']this Wahab was canned by Kohli in Subcontinent.This is probably one of those one off by Riaz.Even Sreesanth made Kallis dance in SA and Ishant made Ponting dance in one off spell in Aus.But the question is whether they were able to sustain it throughout the career? Seenu mama (Precambrian annachi) has shown with stats that there is no sustained excellence from Pakistan bowlers over years.I see some very childish arguments from Pakistani posters, abusing the anna. Autonomous makes some good points with reasons. I did look at the numbers of annachi.My take is that Pak bowlers regress over 4-5 years and once they start regressing/injuries/fixing issues they are replaced by next set of bowlers.That's why you don't see sustained excellence over years after Wasim or Waqar. Precambrian, good thread and arguments.Hats off. Youre exactly right Wahab was brutally thrashed by Kohli...but at the same time he is capable of destroying batsmen on sheer pace. The question of whether he has fast bowling ability is not in question. Link to comment
vijay50 Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Youre exactly right Wahab was brutally thrashed by Kohli...but at the same time he is capable of destroying batsmen on sheer pace. The question of whether he has fast bowling ability is not in question. No no, he has the ability.The point Precambrian was making was, whether Wahab (Other Pakistani bowlers)could do this on consistent basis on all type of pitches in test matches.I doubt it.If he can do it over next 7-10 years , he can atleast get close to Waqar. Link to comment
Vilander Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 No. Are you saying Junaid' date= Irfan, Wahab, Amir etc all cant hit 150...im using Wahab as its all fresh in our memory and Im surprised someone would bring such a silly argument up so soon after. Please remind me when Brian Lara offered to pay for Ishant Sharmas aggressive behavior and praised his fast bowling spell from hell. so hitting 150 is good fast bowler..alright. But yeah all of them dont hit 150 anyway...like not even once.. Wahab and Gul does thats about it. The OP is saying there is lots of hype around pak ability to produce great fast bowlers, its not silly its backed up by stats. Give substantiation prove your point with sound logic not some statement filled with cognitive biases. Link to comment
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