mishra Posted June 11, 2015 Posted June 11, 2015 - Pak may not have provided any solid evidence but neither has India. Evidence about what ? To whom?
Kalia_Test Posted June 11, 2015 Posted June 11, 2015 * BBC Muzzaffarabad Report * Ajit Doval actually was answering a question on "how to" (and not how Ind is) tackle terror sponsoring states such as Pakistan at Sastra University :P Loaded question to him making lot of assumptions. Ajit Doval should not have answered a question based on multiple assumptions. Anyway, this looks like Hafiz Saeed speeches on how they "will" do something in Kashmir. He is a lunatic anyway and does not represent State Policy of Sovereign nation Pakistan.
Kalia_Test Posted June 11, 2015 Posted June 11, 2015 Evidence about what ? To whom? This was a response to Rett on mutual accusations by both countries and neither country has any concrete evidence.
zen Posted June 11, 2015 Author Posted June 11, 2015 Loaded question to him making lot of assumptions. Ajit Doval should not have answered a question based on multiple assumptions. Anyway' date=' this looks like Hafiz Saeed speeches on how they "will" do something in Kashmir. He is a lunatic anyway and does not represent State Policy of Sovereign nation Pakistan.[/quote'] What Doval should have done is subjective. Pak's desperately trying to link his statements means little and at that time Doval was probably not even the NSA :haha: lol please don't repeat the points that have been answered to. Ind govt has submitted a report on Saeed and US has a bounty on his head :facepalm: PS appears as if because things didn't work out for you on the other thread, you are seeking to find unnecessary holes in other people's post in other threads .... take a chill pill, have a glass of water, and relax :P
Kalia_Test Posted June 11, 2015 Posted June 11, 2015 What Doval should have done is subjective. Pak's desperately trying to link his statements means little and at that time Doval was probably not even the NSA :haha: lol please don't repeat the points that have been answered to. Ind govt has submitted a report on Saeed and US has a bounty on his head :facepalm: US having a bounty is immaterial. Saeed does not represent Pakistan Govt in any way. There are many in India that want to annex Pakistan. However that is not Govt of India's stance. If it is felt that Hafiz Saeed is relevant to this thread, maybe it is worth exploring non-state actors in India and their hostile intentions of annexing Pakistan. Maybe the causes of such opinions might be the same . Ask me and I can oblige :two_thumbs_up: We can also explore cross-border infiltrations across the globe and maybe explore how they evolved over documented human history exploring all angles :P
zen Posted June 11, 2015 Author Posted June 11, 2015 US having a bounty is immaterial. Saeed does not represent Pakistan Govt in any way. There are many in India that want to annex Pakistan. However that is not Govt of India's stance. If it is felt that Hafiz Saeed is relevant to this thread, maybe it is worth exploring non-state actors in India and their hostile intentions of annexing Pakistan. Maybe the causes of such opinions might be the same . Ask me and I can oblige :two_thumbs_up: We can also explore cross-border infiltrations across the globe and maybe explore how they evolved over documented human history exploring all angles :P :hysterical:
Kalia_Test Posted June 11, 2015 Posted June 11, 2015 BTW - Where is evidence for your 'facts' that Pakistan sends militants to Kashmir and they have some camps in Pakistan? And no "Border", "LoC" movie clippings don't count.
zen Posted June 11, 2015 Author Posted June 11, 2015 BTW - Where is evidence for your 'facts' that Pakistan sends militants to Kashmir and they have some camps in Pakistan? And no "Border"' date=' "LoC" movie clippings don't count.[/quote'] :hysterical: Anyways R-viQpzsaK8 Listen to the LeT militant .... And Saeed is connected with LeT :P
Kalia_Test Posted June 11, 2015 Posted June 11, 2015 :hysterical: Anyways R-viQpzsaK8 Listen to the LeT militant .... And Saeed is connected with LeT :P Video by Indian army is proof? :hysterical: What next? You want me to post videos by Pak army saying they recovered Indian arms and notes and (probably) forced confessions by some unfortunate soul that India sponsors them? Even in the 0.00000001% chance ( though I believe it is 0%) that the video is true, is LeT Govt of Pakistan? Dint Govt of Pakistan ban LeT? You said "Pakistan" sends militants and hosts camps. Where is evidence? The Pakistan should be Govt of Pakistan.
zen Posted June 11, 2015 Author Posted June 11, 2015 Video by Indian army is proof? :hysterical: What next? You want me to post videos by Pak army saying they recovered Indian arms and notes and (probably) forced confessions by some unfortunate soul that India sponsors them? Even in the 0.00000001% chance ( though I believe it is 0%) that the video is true, is LeT Govt of Pakistan? Dint Govt of Pakistan ban LeT? You said "Pakistan" sends militants and hosts camps. Where is evidence? The Pakistan should be Govt of Pakistan. :hysterical: You yourself clarified the Pak's tactics Ind Army does not intend to control (rule) India. It does not profit from suggesting that militants come in from Pak as can be seen by tons of jawans who have lost their lives in J&K due to terrorist activities Also the displaced Kashmiri Pandits' case is right in front of our eyes (if they are open :P ) On one hand, you were trying to be a patriot by attacking NRIs who you thought were not advertising Ind properly (and not glossing over its negatives), and on the other hand, you are questioning the Indian Army :hehe:
Kalia_Test Posted June 11, 2015 Posted June 11, 2015 :hysterical: You yourself clarified the Pak's tactics Ind Army does not intend to control (rule) India. It does not profit from suggesting that militants come in from Pak as can be seen by tons of jawans who have lost their lives in J&K due to terrorist activities Also the displaced Kashmiri Pandits' case is right in front of our eyes (if they are open :P ) On one hand, you were trying to be a patriot by attacking NRIs who you thought were not advertising Ind properly (and not glossing over its negatives), and on the other hand, you are questioning the Indian Army :hehe: 1. General of Indian army speaking - forward to 9:15 sOOQKPPHEqM "Indian army is an accountable, potent, responsive and disciplined element of national policy. We believe Civil authority, we respect Civil authority...actions by Indian army will be an extension of State policy" There is no "it". Indian Army = India's national policy. Hence in this argument between nations, you cannot arbitrarily take word of one side. 2. Displaced Indian Kashmiris is India's problem. Who is stopping them from being relocated back to Kashmir? I fail to see Pakistan connection. If you are saying they were kicked out, then the question is by whom? If they were kicked out by people from Indian kashmir, then it further strengthens the point that it is India's internal problem. Third point is your pure conjecture. If we go that route, then I can also make many assumptions about you but I will not. :two_thumbs_up:
zen Posted June 11, 2015 Author Posted June 11, 2015 1. General of Indian army speaking - forward to 9:15 sOOQKPPHEqM "Indian army is an accountable, potent, responsive and disciplined element of national policy. We believe Civil authority, we respect Civil authority...actions by Indian army will be an extension of State policy" There is no "it". Indian Army = India's national policy. Hence in this argument between nations, you cannot arbitrarily take word of one side. 2. Displaced Indian Kashmiris is India's problem. Who is stopping them from being relocated back to Kashmir? I fail to see Pakistan connection. If you are saying they were kicked out, then the question is by whom? If they were kicked out by people from Indian kashmir, then it further strengthens the point that it is India's internal problem. Third point is your pure conjecture. If we go that route, then I can also make many assumptions about you but I will not. :two_thumbs_up: :hysterical: Nobody is even arguing some the points in your above post! * Yes, Ind Army = Ind's national policy, which is determined by GOI .... In Pak, Army dictates terms on many issues .... that was the point * It was Pak's policy to use militancy which resulted in the pandits losing their homes .... a simple connection * Let's cut the chase: Do you believe the Indian Army (and such organizations) when it says that it went after militants operating from Myanmar? If YES, you wasted your time in making this irrelevant post as by the same argument you would trust Indian Army's take on militancy in Kashmir (which was in that video). The army is in Kashmir precisely to fight militancy and other such threats from Pak :facepalm: This closes the case on facts that you were debating on PS Pls stop blaming others for what happens to you on threads. It is not others but your weak and irrelevant points that makes others want to expose such line of thinking .... it is nothing personal - make a good point, it will be agreed; make a bad point, it will be refuted If your point is answered, then move on; there is no point in trying to make something out of nothing :icflove:
Kalia_Test Posted June 11, 2015 Posted June 11, 2015 :hysterical: Nobody is even arguing some the points in your above post! * Yes, Ind Army = Ind's national policy, which is determined by GOI .... In Pak, Army dictates terms on many issues .... that was the point The point was that you posted a video by Indian Army and I responded that since Indian Army = Indian Govt, the video is in no way credible as it is by an interested party in a bilateral dispute * It was Pak's policy to use militancy which resulted in the pandits losing their homes .... a simple connection Assumptions. No evidence from you so far. Just pure conjecture and jingoistic talk * Let's cut the chase: Do you believe the Indian Army when it says that it went after militants operating in Myanmar? Going after militants is NOT SAME as accusing another Sovereign nation of sponsoring it :facepalm: If YES, you wasted your time in making this irrelevant post as by the same argument you would trust Indian Army's take on militancy in Kashmir (which was in that video). The army is in Kashmir precisely to fight militancy :facepalm: This closes the case on facts that you were debating on Pls stop blaming others for what happens to you on threads. It is not others but your weak and irrelevant points that makes others want to expose such line of thinking .... it is nothing personal - make a good point, it will be agreed; make a bad point, it will be refuted Getting personal huh :giggle: I don't know why you are bringing the other thread here. I have answered you there. Who is blaming anyone. Looks like assumptions is your way of arguing :cantstop: On this, why don't you prove something before you go blah blah on what India should do,etc. Prove it irrefutably with facts and we will agree, else there will be opposition :two_thumbs_up: The evidence needs to pass Court scrutiny criteria and should be fool proof and accepted by say a reputed Org like UN through a resolution. Else, all these masala statements and YT videos will be flooded here which are in no way credible. :icflove:
zen Posted June 11, 2015 Author Posted June 11, 2015 OK, this thread is based on facts and/or generally accepted truths Below are some of the points, if you agree with them, they will answer your questions: 1. Pak is considered as the epicenter of terrorism 2. Pak Army has ruled Pakistan 3. J&K suffers from terrorism backed by Pak 4. Tons of Indian jawans have died in J&K fighting against these terrorists Below is from US DOD Report: The October 2014 report “Progress Towards Security and Stability in Afghanistan” submitted by U.S. DoD to the Congress reconfirms Pakistan as a terror hub and its use of militant forces as proxies to destabilize the region. The report also mentions the role of Lashkar-e-Taiba in the recent attack on the Indian consulate in Afghanistan. Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) is one of the largest terrorist organizations operating mainly from Pakistan. LeT is also known to operate terrorists training camps in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (POK). As per the section 5 (Regional Engagement) of the report: “Afghan- and Indian-focused militants continue to operate from Pakistan territory to the detriment of Afghan and regional stability. Pakistan uses these proxy forces to hedge against the loss of influence in Afghanistan and to counter India’s superior military. These relationships run counter to Pakistan’s public commitment to support Afghan-led reconciliation. Such groups continue to act as the primary irritant in Afghan-Pakistan bilateral relations.” “Although stability in Afghanistan is in the interest of Pakistan, Pakistan also seeks sufficient Pashtun representation in the Afghan government to prevent Pashtun discontent along the Afghan-Pakistan border and limit India’s influence. Pakistan made some progress on interdicting and disrupting the production of IED components, but still falls short despite greater engagement and recent cooperation. A significant portion of the materials, which perpetuate the conflict, continue to emanate from or transit through Pakistan. Cross-border incidents and lingering mistrust remain points of tension in Pakistan-Afghanistan relations. Both countries continue to question each other’s commitment to advancing a political settlement in Afghanistan.” “In May of this reporting period, the Indian consulate in Herat Province was attacked by a group of four heavily armed militants. The attack came three days prior to the swearing in of the new Indian Prime Minister, Narendra Modi. Prime Minister Modi is perceived as being close to Hindu nationalist groups, a fact that may have played into the timing of the attack. In June, the U.S. Department of State announced that the terrorist group Lashkar-e-Taiba was responsible for the attack. Following the attack, former Afghan President Karzai denounced the attack and made strong statements supporting relations with India.” what's next North Korea is creditable too? :haha:
Kalia_Test Posted June 11, 2015 Posted June 11, 2015 OK, this thread is based on facts and/or generally accepted truths Below are some of the points, if you agree with them, they will answer your questions: 1. Pak is considered as the epicenter of terrorism 2. Pak Army has ruled Pakistan 3. J&K suffers from terrorism backed by Pak 4. Tons of Indian jawans have died in J&K fighting against these terrorists Below is from US DOD Report: The October 2014 report “Progress Towards Security and Stability in Afghanistan†submitted by U.S. DoD to the Congress reconfirms Pakistan as a terror hub and its use of militant forces as proxies to destabilize the region. The report also mentions the role of Lashkar-e-Taiba in the recent attack on the Indian consulate in Afghanistan. Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) is one of the largest terrorist organizations operating mainly from Pakistan. LeT is also known to operate terrorists training camps in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (POK). As per the section 5 (Regional Engagement) of the report: “Afghan- and Indian-focused militants continue to operate from Pakistan territory to the detriment of Afghan and regional stability. Pakistan uses these proxy forces to hedge against the loss of influence in Afghanistan and to counter India’s superior military. These relationships run counter to Pakistan’s public commitment to support Afghan-led reconciliation. Such groups continue to act as the primary irritant in Afghan-Pakistan bilateral relations.†“Although stability in Afghanistan is in the interest of Pakistan, Pakistan also seeks sufficient Pashtun representation in the Afghan government to prevent Pashtun discontent along the Afghan-Pakistan border and limit India’s influence. Pakistan made some progress on interdicting and disrupting the production of IED components, but still falls short despite greater engagement and recent cooperation. A significant portion of the materials, which perpetuate the conflict, continue to emanate from or transit through Pakistan. Cross-border incidents and lingering mistrust remain points of tension in Pakistan-Afghanistan relations. Both countries continue to question each other’s commitment to advancing a political settlement in Afghanistan.†“In May of this reporting period, the Indian consulate in Herat Province was attacked by a group of four heavily armed militants. The attack came three days prior to the swearing in of the new Indian Prime Minister, Narendra Modi. Prime Minister Modi is perceived as being close to Hindu nationalist groups, a fact that may have played into the timing of the attack. In June, the U.S. Department of State announced that the terrorist group Lashkar-e-Taiba was responsible for the attack. Following the attack, former Afghan President Karzai denounced the attack and made strong statements supporting relations with India.†what's next North Korea is creditable too? :haha: A third nation's report for local consumption? :hysterical::hysterical: You need to do better than this :two_thumbs_up: So what did US do after this report? I am curious to know. Did it press UN for any resolution? They can't as it was an "opinion" by some people :giggle: US might tweak its policy based on the opinions but as "evidence", it means zilch, nada :cantstop: I wont bother listing them here but you can check US DoD and other US Govt website reports and what it thinks of India's role in Balochistan :two_thumbs_up:
zen Posted June 11, 2015 Author Posted June 11, 2015 A third nation's report for local consumption? :hysterical::hysterical: You need to do better than this :two_thumbs_up: So what did US do after this report? I am curious to know. Did it press UN for any resolution? They can't as it was an "opinion" by some people :giggle: US might tweak its policy based on the opinions but as "evidence", it means zilch, nada :cantstop: I wont bother listing them here but you can check US DoD and other US Govt website reports and what it thinks of India's role in Balochistan :two_thumbs_up: :hysterical: So we are to present intelligence level hard evidences on this thread! (and that to someone who may not even understand it) :hehe: Nah, I will go by what GOI and 3rd party suggest including those who submit reports to their governments after analyzing what actually happens in the field .... that's acceptable as generally accepted truths on such forums You are free to believe what Pak says. However that is not accepted as generally accepted truth - Here we go by GOI version and 3rd party reports Hope this clarifies any doubts you may have had :P
Kalia_Test Posted June 11, 2015 Posted June 11, 2015 :hysterical: So we are to present intelligence level hard evidences on this thread! (and that to someone who may not even understand it) :hehe: Nah, I will go by what GOI and 3rd party suggest including those who submit reports to their governments after analyzing what actually happens in the field .... that's acceptable as generally accepted truths on such forums You are free to believe what Pak says. However that is not accepted as generally accepted truth - Here we go by GOI version and 3rd party reports Hope this clarifies any doubts you may have had :P We don't need intelligence level hard evidences here. Just a resolution by UN based on such intelligence level hard evidences. You don't have any :P What is this term Generally accepted truth :banghead: Go to even a district level court and use this term and they will throw your evidence out . Again assumptions assumptions - is that what you always do? I am not going by what Pak says. Neither should anyone go by what GOI says. This is bilateral matter for God's sake. Evidence needs to be endorsed by a world body through a resolution and sanctions,etc follow. That is what happened with North Korea. If there was real credible evidence against Pak, UN would have put sanctions against Pak long ago ( heck they were trigger happy with Nuclear tests and you believe they will ignore evidence of state sponsored terrorism just like that :banghead: ) Now that we have established you have no evidence on State sponsored militant invasion by Pak , we can probably explore cultural invasion - in any topic 360 degree view is always helpful. No topic is isolated :P as human nature is moulded through culture, religion, language and boundaries. We can also discuss the nation-state concept imposed on the world after WW2 and its relevance in current situation :P
zen Posted June 11, 2015 Author Posted June 11, 2015 We don't need intelligence level hard evidences here. Just a resolution by UN based on such intelligence level hard evidences. You don't have any :P What is this term Generally accepted truth :banghead: Go to even a district level court and use this term and they will throw your evidence out . Again assumptions assumptions - is that what you always do? I am not going by what Pak says. Neither should anyone go by what GOI says. This is bilateral matter for God's sake. Evidence needs to be endorsed by a world body through a resolution and sanctions,etc follow. That is what happened with North Korea. If there was real credible evidence against Pak, UN would have put sanctions against Pak long ago ( heck they were trigger happy with Nuclear tests and you believe they will ignore evidence of state sponsored terrorism just like that :banghead: ) Now that we have established you have no evidence on State sponsored militant invasion by Pak , we can probably explore cultural invasion - in any topic 360 degree view is always helpful. No topic is isolated :P as human nature is moulded through culture, religion, language and boundaries. We can also discuss the nation-state concept imposed on the world after WW2 and its relevance in current situation :P :hysterical: We are not reinventing the wheel here or fighting a legal case on this forum (and I believe that you don't have the credentials for that) so let's not get in to that By trying to bring for UN sanctions against, you are highlighting your ignorance on how Pak was the base against war against USSR and Afganistan :cantstop: On top of that Zardari himself admitted to using militants - Link Generally accepted truths imply what is believed to be truth (not legally stamped truth) - And studying Kargin War is enough to understand Pak's role in Kashmir :winky: So once by posting more, you are only highlighting the confusion (or ignorance) you have about the subject - Did I even read that correct - "Bring UN Resolution against Pak to prove Pak sponsors terrorism" :hehe: Your type of argument can be termed as childish as it is like a kid eating a sweet and then asking to prove to him that there was a sweet :giggle: Cool down, have a glass of water, understand the topic, etc. then come to such discussions ....
Kalia_Test Posted June 11, 2015 Posted June 11, 2015 I should thank the Opening post that says "This thread is to discuss Pak related topics." One often ignored aspect is of cultural invasion ( perceived or otherwise ) of Pakistan. This is an extremely interesting subject. Every nation wants to preserve its boundaries and sometimes more importantly - its culture. Boundaries can change as they have all through history but once culture changes, technically they are "not" the same people - they became someone else. In this context, there is a perception about a cultural invasion by India on Pak through Bollywood, Sas Bahu serials,etc that are perceived to subconsciously occupy mindspace. One take on this by former Group captain of Pakistan Air Force http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/opinion/12-May-2015/cultural-invasion The interest of the Pakistani public in the Indian entertainment industry has been aroused to the extent that Pakistani private television news bulletins extensively air reports about the latest Bollywood releases and developments in the Indian film industry “He who influences the thought of his times influences the times that follow.†This lesson has been learnt well by India, although it did not lack tutelage on the subject because of the maxims provided by that master of deceit and guile in statecraft, Chanakya, who professed that the “mind is the ultimate weaponâ€. The Indian electronic media, comprising film, television, radio and social media, has been more than adept in the art of promoting Indian culture. Sushma Swaraj, the current Indian external affairs minister, in her earlier tenure as minister for information and broadcasting (MOIB) under the BJP regime, had declared that India does not need to invade Pakistan physically as it can conquer the minds and thoughts of Pakistanis through an onslaught of Indian television and film content. With the advent of media freedom and the granting of television and FM radio licenses to the private sector, unbridled power was gained by the private media sector. India found it opportune to invade Pakistan’s airwaves by entering into agreements with various Pakistani entertainment television channels to air Indian dramas, talk shows, song and dance programmes and even quiz and infotainment content for children. Indian movies also started being aired on Pakistani television channels and, at a later stage, the government of Pakistan relaxed conditions for Indian movies to be screened in Pakistani cinema houses The result has been explosive; the Indian cultural invasion has pervaded Pakistani minds, especially the youth and the tender thoughts of children. The interest of the Pakistani public in the Indian entertainment industry has been aroused to the extent that Pakistani private television news bulletins extensively air reports about the latest Bollywood releases and updates regarding developments in the Indian film industry. Instead, the MoIB must adopt measures to motivate the Pakistani film and television industry to produce content superior to Indian media instead of making cheap copies so that Pakistani viewers slowly lose interest in Indian programmes and this cultural invasion can be checked effectively with a counter-narrative This cultural invasion is something perfectly legal and is often a potent weapon. In this, Indian Govt has been extremely cautious - probably recognizing the perils. Very few Pak dramas air in India ( and those too are censored where necessary ) :two_thumbs_up:
Kalia_Test Posted June 11, 2015 Posted June 11, 2015 :hysterical: We are not reinventing the wheel here or fighting a legal case on this forum (and I believe that you don't have the credentials for that) so let's not get in to that By trying to bring for UN sanctions against, you are highlighting your ignorance on how Pak was the base against war against USSR and Afganistan :cantstop: On top of that Zardari himself admitted to using militants - Link Generally accepted truths imply what is believed to be truth (not legally stamped truth) - And studying Kargin War is enough to understand Pak's role in Kashmir :winky: So once by posting more, you are only highlighting the confusion (or ignorance) you have about the subject - Did I even read that correct - "Bring UN Resolution against Pak to prove Pak sponsors terrorism" :hehe: Your type of argument can be termed as childish as it is like a kid eating a sweet and then asking to prove to him that there was a sweet :giggle: Long rant Often happens when you have nothing concrete to say :cantstop: No evidence is what I got from the rant :giggle: I am sure you have great credentials though you wont have evidence even for that :hysterical: This thread can be renamed " Rett's Canadian dreams and his generally accepted truths ( in his mind ) - Wake up and realize you are where you were ":hehe:
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