Are Indian batsmen scared of pace ? NOT!

[Bumper]

Shoaib Akhtar's empty claims recently that Indian batsmen struggle against pace, got me thinking. Are Indian batsmen scared of pace ? The numbers suggest the opposite. Since 2004, when the Ind-Pak rivalry resumed, Shoaib Akhtar has played 9 Tests against India, taken 20 wickets @ 42.40 a piece. (Career Avg: 24) Mohammad Sami -> 10 Tests, 21 wickets, Avg: 70 (Career Avg: 50) Brett Lee has played 4 Tests vs India for 21 wickets @ 31.30 (Career Avg: 30.69) If you discard Lee's performances in last decade, his numbers are: 1 Test, 4 wickets, Avg: 69.00 Makhaya Ntini: 7 Tests, 26 wickets. Avg: 30.80 (Career Avg: 27) Shane Bond: 2 Tests, 12 wickets. Avg: 16.33 (Career Avg: 22) Out of all the express pacemen around, Shane Bond is the ONLY paceman who betters his career avg vs India. (Bond's exploits in those wonder bra NZ pitches bloat his figures) Who says Indian batsmen cannot play pace ? Bring on Shaun Tait!

[Sachinism]

thanks for the info

[sandtest]

The MOST important moment will be -- How we can handle first day 40-50 Overs. I will be happy if say we loose 2-3 wicket -- not more than that. We have a dream batting line-up. After negotiating those initial overs, we can really make Kangaroos cry. All those talks of whitewah and getting owned will be proved wrong then.

[PaiN_KiLLeR]

I've always believed our batsmen have never been bothered by express pace (inspite of having no express bowlers to face in domestic cric).. thanks for putting up the stats bumper.

[Mr. Wicket]

Shoaib Akhtar's empty claims recently that Indian batsmen struggle against pace' date=' got me thinking.[/quote'] If only he had done the same. How many wickets did the moish whinnhaah phaaaaashht boiler take in the test series, again? :D

[Lurker]

Shoaib Akhtar's empty claims recently that Indian batsmen struggle against pace' date=' got me thinking. [b']Are Indian batsmen scared of pace ? The numbers suggest the opposite.

Every quality batsman is scared of pace. Those that dont admit are lying. In my cricket watching days I am yet to see a batsman more fearless than Viv Richards and if he had to see a Pschycologist after the barrage that Lillee/Thommo dished then little hope for others. It is just that some batsmen play better than the rest. As for contemprory Indian batsmen, we have good batsmen against poor quality pace bowling. As you have noted correctly the only outstanding bowler is Shane Bond, who when on song has done as much damage to Australia as any other nation. In this series I think Indian batsmen have as good a chance as any against Aussies pace. They need to watch for odd ball every over that Tait and Lee bowl but otherwise they should be okay. xxx

[The Outsider]

Every quality batsman is scared of pace. Those that dont admit are lying. In my cricket watching days I am yet to see a batsman more fearless than Viv Richards and if he had to see a Pschycologist after the barrage that Lillee/Thommo dished then little hope for others. It is just that some batsmen play better than the rest. As for contemprory Indian batsmen, we have good batsmen against poor quality pace bowling. As you have noted correctly the only outstanding bowler is Shane Bond, who when on song has done as much damage to Australia as any other nation. In this series I think Indian batsmen have as good a chance as any against Aussies pace. They need to watch for odd ball every over that Tait and Lee bowl but otherwise they should be okay. xxx

self loathing of the highest quality. Richards might have been more belligerent against pace, but he cannot even compete with gavaskar as a player of pace.

[Dhondy]

Funny, Bumps, just before you posted, I was checking out the exact same stats, but decided not to post because I knew all the hard work would be met with complete indifference, as your well researched post has. Why do you bother? Let's just PM each other next time, shall we? BTW, don't forget to check out the bowling averages of other "express bowlers"- Harmison(30+), Flintoff(40+), Malinga(40+), and Fidel Edwards(30+) against India. Would reinforce the points you made above. In the series that Bond played against us, he did average 16, but do look up the bowling averages of other bowlers in that series- Tuffy averaged 8, Oram 11, Zaheer 13. Kinda puts things in perspective, doesn't it? Steyn did pretty well in the one Test he played against us. Coming back to Shoaib, he got some wickets against us in that first Test back in '99 because of the shock value he brought with him. In this decade his series bowling average against India reads 42, 65 and 33 repectively. No doubt our batsmen are quaking in their boots. My greatest regret is that this completely undeserving noob is making money out of us. Over $300K from the BCCI for the tamasha called IPL, and now I hear around $2 million from Bollywood. No doubt he's laughing into his sleeve all the way to the bank. Does it not make you feel that the Indian cricket industry has become a whorehouse where everybody pops in when they feel like a satisfying fukc? Quite apart from that, which quicks do you think have troubled India most in recent times? You couldn't go far wrong if you selected McGrath, Pollock and Donald out of a hat. They average 18, 19, and 16 against India respectively, but Donald outdoes all of them because his record in India is frighteningly good, better than McGrath and far better than Pollock. That was the man whose blinding pace, allied with movement truly terrified India. Remember his frustration when Ntini and co couldn't find the right length against Tendulkar and Sehwag in the first innings at Blomfontein and got walloped? That fellow knew how to bowl to India, and will go down in the hall of fame in the August company of the other two, a rarefied club Shoaib can only dream of inhabiting.

[THX_1138]

pace has hardly ever been our tormentor. save for the 1996 series in south africa, and the 1999 series in australia, none of our defeats abroad have been due to capitulation to pace. if anything, it is seam and swing that our batsmen are susceptible to. but then again, there is hardly a batsman in the world who does not suffer that problem. for instance, when england were swinging it like a fracking pendulumn, haydunce and ponting found it hard in the 2005 series... if anything, this time around it is the pressure of not being able to score against tait combined with clarke's accuracy mitchell johnson's pace, accurancy and variation of pace etc that might be our undoing (and believe me this is next to impossible, considering two out of four or five bowlers are an echelon above anything our batsmen have played in the last three years). we need to approach this series with the mindset of the 2006 pakistan series where we would negotiate asif and then rape the rest. negotiate clarke and cross our fingers against johnson while scoring of tait and mcgill. the safe money is securely on australia. question is, will it be 4-0, 3-0, 2-0, 1-0 or will we notch up atleast one victory?

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[fineleg]

What about 'bounce' - bouncy tracks (and bowlers who exploit it) have been an issue, no?

[THX_1138]

we seem to be tossing numbers in the air rather unapologetically here. lets ask ourselves this: what is a good bowling record for a pace bowler or for that fact, any bowler. consider hypothetical situation #1: fantoosh akhtar (no relation) comes in and bowling a rolicking spell on day one, and another on day four. spending the rest of the time in the cool shades sipping on nutrients and supplements, while playing with his err... snuggle buddy. meanwhile the opposition declares open season at the Oz State Penitary on the rest of his side and racks up 500 odd runs in innings one and a quick 200 in innings two. fantoosh akhtar, thanks to the early morning wickets on day one and wickets on day four against batsmen racing to hit the showers ends up with 6-8 wickets for the match at an average of 20-30. is this bowler effective? i.e. has he, inspite of his brilliant average did it really do any significant damage since the rest of his team splayed open like a lahori whore? hypothetical situation #2: hoshiyar mcgrath (again no relation) bowls a nagging line, and with a pitch more helpful than a generous mother in law, runs through a side and leads his team to a sound victory and ends up with and average of 15-20. meanwhile his bunk buddy lambu lee (no relation, as usual) is called upon to bowl 8 overs where he runs into a beserk surd who hoicks a couple of boundaries while hoshiyar mcgrath is resting and sends lambu bhai back with figures of 40 runs for a solitary wicket. does this make lambu lee, a renowned express bowler an ineffecient tool? hypothetical situation #3: aadee-mai-dard bond (second cousin of the other bond) runs through the bottom order of a side and ends up with 4 for 40 while his good friend denish tuffy (no relation) dismisses the top three batsmen for a mere 80 runs and thus ends up with an average of 27. of course, aadee-mai-dard and denish's team wins convincingly. is aadee-mai-dard a brilliant exponent of fast bowling or just moping up after denish does all the hard work with movement and accuracy? as would be evident, its pointless judging a bowler without the frame of reference (yes thats a bit of general relativity for you). a fast bowler rarely ever operates alone and its his partners who often walk away with the cake after the fast bowler prepares the dough and places it in the owen. india is just as susceptible to swing and movement as it was say ten years ago. we have better batsmen but on a whole, the game has been relaxed for the batsmen. the pitches are no longer mine fields and thus, even a severe bowler can be sent home crying.

[Rohip]

Brilliant stats, really great stuff but can someone filter them between those tests played in Asia and those tests played out of Asia. In Asia we normally play on the sort of flat and dead tracks that kill the effectiveness of all bar the greatest of fast bowlers. How do we do against pace outside Asia?

[Donny]

Every quality batsman is scared of pace. Those that dont admit are lying. In my cricket watching days I am yet to see a batsman more fearless than Viv Richards and if he had to see a Pschycologist after the barrage that Lillee/Thommo dished then little hope for others. It is just that some batsmen play better than the rest. As for contemprory Indian batsmen, we have good batsmen against poor quality pace bowling. As you have noted correctly the only outstanding bowler is Shane Bond, who when on song has done as much damage to Australia as any other nation.

Good point, Lurker. You actually addressed the topic. However, I find it hard to figure how you think Bond did any damage at all to Australia. He's only played 2 Tests against them for returns of 1/135, 1/74 & 1/80 - the last 2 being at the WACA when it was a pace bowler's paradise.

[THX_1138]

Good point, Lurker. You actually addressed the topic. However, I find it hard to figure how you think Bond did any damage at all to Australia. He's only played 2 Tests against them for returns of 1/135, 1/74 & 1/80 - the last 2 being at the WACA when it was a pace bowler's paradise.

no it wasnt then.

[Bumper]

Every quality batsman is scared of pace. Those that dont admit are lying. In my cricket watching days I am yet to see a batsman more fearless than Viv Richards and if he had to see a Pschycologist after the barrage that Lillee/Thommo dished then little hope for others. It is just that some batsmen play better than the rest. As for contemprory Indian batsmen, we have good batsmen against poor quality pace bowling. As you have noted correctly the only outstanding bowler is Shane Bond, who when on song has done as much damage to Australia as any other nation. In this series I think Indian batsmen have as good a chance as any against Aussies pace. They need to watch for odd ball every over that Tait and Lee bowl but otherwise they should be okay. xxx

Lurker, but how do you justify that fear factor ? I take it that yours is a subjective claim. In Viv's era there was no proper protecting gear. Viv amplified these problems, with his own compulsive need to dominate the opponent bowlers. Its not true about modern batsmen. Most of them are comfortable ducking under a bouncer with neither heads or egoes bruised. Even when evasive action aint successful, a hit or two on the helmet has become so common these days that even tailenders dont worry about having to face express bowlers anymore. To me, all this talk of fear means jack. In the end, it all has to be backed up by numbers. Thats what bowlers are being picked for. To pick wickets. Bowl opponents out twice. Thats what wins a test match. Lets consider the last three series vs Pakistan, in which this 'loose canon' played against us. In 2004, India racked up 675 in Multan, 600 in Pindi. In the only game we lost, it was Umar Gul who out bowled all their express pacemen. Sehwag has gone on record stating that it was Shabbir & Gul he had a harder time facing up to, than Akhtar. Now surely Sehwag knows a thing or two about Pak bowlers, doesnt he ? In 2006, India once again piled on 400 without loss & 600+ in consecutive tests, before being nailed by Asif in Karachi. Did you see the way Dhoni mauled Akhtar, rattling him so much that Akhtar finally had to resort to a beamer at 150K to let out his frustrations ? In 2007, Akhtar was menacing in one spell (just one spell), even that wasnt good enough to stop our ageing batsmen (its popularly believed that as you age, your ability to play express pace wanes, no ?). In Kolkatta & Bangalore we once again piled on 600+. Where is the empirical evidence to back up the fear factor ?

[Guest BossBhai]

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[Ram]

Feel the need to quote myself from a few weeks ago,

That Indian cricket fans constantly keep referring to or hope players like VRV Singh or Munaf Patel come back into the Indian team shows how much we yearn for genuine fast bowlers. This longing for a quick bowler who can cross 140 kmph seems to be because of the numeuous times our batsman have been blitzed by pace bowlers from other teams. Things are changing though. I , as someone who has been living Indian cricket for close to 11 years now , can definitely detect a change in my mentality. I am no longer afraid of quick bowlers from the opposition teams. There was a time when i used to be scared for our team whenever the opposition team had a real fast bowler , from the Waqar , Donald times in the mid-90's to the Lee , Bond , Akhtar, Harmison and even no-names like Nantie Hayward , Jermaine Lawson. Nowadays i am not, which is testament to the fact that our performance has improved markedly in the last 4-5 years abroad. And now with the arrival of new pacers like Sreesanth , RP Singh who can crank it up quite a bit , my situation has gotten better. If any opposing team says " We have some real fast bowlers" , I can now say " Well, so do we. Better watch out" :two_thumbs_up:

[bharat297]

Well to be honest I think its just wrong to single out Indian batsman. I think every cricket team will struggle against sheer pace, like high 150s, not just India. Its a question of whether they can survive through those tough periods and capitalise when the bowlers get tired and their pace drops. I remember watching this ODI in Brisbane in 2002, when Shoaib came on and took 5/25 against Australia and was bowling at exceptional pace, on the bounciest wicket in Australia. It was the first time I had seen guys like Gilchrist, Ponting, Bevan, Martyn, etc absolutely scared s***less. They had no clue what to do against Shoaib. Not to mention the success that Shane Bond has had against Australia. Harmison troubled Australia a lot in Ashes 2005. Sheer pace will always be difficult to handle for any team. Unfortunately India don't have someone who can clock the exceptional speeds that Lee and Tait can reach. If they did, I can bet that Australia would be scared.

[fineleg]

That is not entirely correct. The head is not the only part of the body that you can feel pain (very revealing indeed :D) .... other areas that are vulnerable are arms,elbow,shoulder,chest,fingers,groin,boots and inner thigh .... and even with some form of protective equipment on a hit can cause considerable pain. So its not entirely correct to say that batsmen no longer fear a hit. Remember how Aggy had Waugh hopping around in the last series ?

where was waugh struck? dont recollect this delivery.