The BSE/NSE Trading Thread

[jusarrived]

3 hours ago, velu said:

 

i suggets you to move to zerodha or some other discount broker , you can save a lot of money and dont need to bother about brokerage..

also zerodha provides trailing SL orders and box orders ..

after executing the order , pft booking order and sl order will beplaces .. when one executes other gets cancelled ..

trailing sl order is like after buying something for 100rs , set sl for 95 and pft booking order for 105 and counter as 1rs .. if the price of the strike moves to 101 , sl order will be modifed to 96 .. ( one problem is that this counters minimum value is 1rs :( ) ..

 

can you give the parameters for MACD , rvi , rsi and the trade setup ..

give the strategy which you tried and tested so that i dont need to break my head again ..  

i never did intrady for 30mins kind of timeframes intentionally 

 

Parameters I use for 5min charts , for less than 30 mins trades . I use 15min for slightly longer ones . 

 

MACD 

Signal Period - 9 

Fast MA - 12 

Slow MA - 26 

 

RVI  - 7 days 

 

RSI - 7 days . ( I use 10 days when I switch to 15min charts ) 

70 - overbought

30 - oversold 

 

 

Heres what I watch to enter a trade, pretty much in the same order  :

for a buy : 

1. MACD has to be above the zero line - this is most important .

2. The MACD line should be crossing over the signal line , you see a shape of "V" or "X" , the more prominent the cross better it is , basically it should look like the gap will continue to widen for next few minutes . 

3. RVI should be  over zero line  or  atleast closer and heading towards it  .

4. RVI should also be doing the same as MACD at the same time , RV line going over the signal line .  

5. Good volumes building up .

6. RSI ,  swings from 40 to 60 or 50 to 70-75 , basically goes closer to your overbought line .

7 . Chaikin MF - this is something I have added recently , am experimenting with different periods , inclined towards 7 days . you will notice this crossing the zero line nicely around the same point MACD and RVI are crossing over .

 

Exact opposite for shorting , all your activity should be below the zero line for MACD and RVI. RSI goes closer to 30 . 

 

The first 4 points are checked , thats a trade for me . The others a relatively vague , though I can go in more confidently .

 

Once you are in the trade , lets assume its a buy .  I watch MACD , Volumes and RSI . RVI tends to fluctuate a lot more , it only makes sense if it reacts with MACD . MACD keeps expanding ( you can just watch the histogram ) , you have no reason to exit your trade . if it tapers , and still above the zero line you know its loosing momentum  and if I see sell off . This is where I exit , some times much earlier but losing momentum dosent really mean the stock will come down it may stay flat and again go up . Somthing I need to work on , emotions gets the better off me . you can imagine seeing 50k profits in 2-3 mins , I find it hard to stay put even if all the indicators are still green .  

 

As an example  if you look at the chart below for SAIL today , I have drawn 3 lines .

1.The first line is where I would start watching the stock closely - here you will notice a lot of the indicators are checked , but macd is not very convincing so I would not be very confident here .

 

2.The second and third are strong buy indicators - the other 2 lines , you can go in blindly . This is where I would buy multiple lots .

Unfortunately dint see this one today .

 

its between the line 2 and line 3 where I struggle , I need to trust the exit indicators a little more . 

[jusarrived]

5 hours ago, velu said:

 

i suggets you to move to zerodha or some other discount broker , you can save a lot of money and dont need to bother about brokerage..

also zerodha provides trailing SL orders and box orders ..

after executing the order , pft booking order and sl order will beplaces .. when one executes other gets cancelled ..

trailing sl order is like after buying something for 100rs , set sl for 95 and pft booking order for 105 and counter as 1rs .. if the price of the strike moves to 101 , sl order will be modifed to 96 .. ( one problem is that this counters minimum value is 1rs :( ) ..

 

can you give the parameters for MACD , rvi , rsi and the trade setup ..

give the strategy which you tried and tested so that i dont need to break my head again ..  

i never did intrady for 30mins kind of timeframes intentionally 

Yeah I do my intraday on Zerodha now , thats why I was comparing the brokerages . Am easily saving 3K minimum every day . Since I do multiple trades in Futures , it will not make sense for me in Icici.

[velu]

17 hours ago, jusarrived said:

 

Parameters I use for 5min charts , for less than 30 mins trades . I use 15min for slightly longer ones . 

 

MACD 

Signal Period - 9 

Fast MA - 12 

Slow MA - 26 

 

RVI  - 7 days 

 

RSI - 7 days . ( I use 10 days when I switch to 15min charts ) 

70 - overbought

30 - oversold 

 

 

Heres what I watch to enter a trade, pretty much in the same order  :

for a buy : 

1. MACD has to be above the zero line - this is most important .

2. The MACD line should be crossing over the signal line , you see a shape of "V" or "X" , the more prominent the cross better it is , basically it should look like the gap will continue to widen for next few minutes . 

3. RVI should be  over zero line  or  atleast closer and heading towards it  .

4. RVI should also be doing the same as MACD at the same time , RV line going over the signal line .  

5. Good volumes building up .

6. RSI ,  swings from 40 to 60 or 50 to 70-75 , basically goes closer to your overbought line .

7 . Chaikin MF - this is something I have added recently , am experimenting with different periods , inclined towards 7 days . you will notice this crossing the zero line nicely around the same point MACD and RVI are crossing over .

 

Exact opposite for shorting , all your activity should be below the zero line for MACD and RVI. RSI goes closer to 30 . 

 

The first 4 points are checked , thats a trade for me . The others a relatively vague , though I can go in more confidently .

 

Once you are in the trade , lets assume its a buy .  I watch MACD , Volumes and RSI . RVI tends to fluctuate a lot more , it only makes sense if it reacts with MACD . MACD keeps expanding ( you can just watch the histogram ) , you have no reason to exit your trade . if it tapers , and still above the zero line you know its loosing momentum  and if I see sell off . This is where I exit , some times much earlier but losing momentum dosent really mean the stock will come down it may stay flat and again go up . Somthing I need to work on , emotions gets the better off me . you can imagine seeing 50k profits in 2-3 mins , I find it hard to stay put even if all the indicators are still green .  

 

As an example  if you look at the chart below for SAIL today , I have drawn 3 lines .

1.The first line is where I would start watching the stock closely - here you will notice a lot of the indicators are checked , but macd is not very convincing so I would not be very confident here .

 

2.The second and third are strong buy indicators - the other 2 lines , you can go in blindly . This is where I would buy multiple lots .

Unfortunately dint see this one today .

 

its between the line 2 and line 3 where I struggle , I need to trust the exit indicators a little more . 

 

looks like we need to put lots of efforts then ..

i am yet to explore the fetaures of zerodha like we can run scripts on multiple stocks and notify us when there is a trigger ..

 

also they have this kite api , where we can pseuco automate the trades .. if my BN works out , i can either do it by myself or ask any developer todo it for me ..

need to use them only for filling orders .. if i do 30 lots of BN iron condor in the morning , i need to put 18 to 24 orders in 3/4 mins

[randomGuy]

question on selling options near to expiry - 

nifty 30th Nov. expiry ( one working day left to expiry) -

https://www.nseindia.com/live_market/dynaContent/live_watch/option_chain/optionKeys.jsp

spot price is ~10300. lets examine premiums at +/- 400 pts. so, 9900 PUT has 29.35 and, 10700 CALL has 17.10 premium. PUT has higher premium. Is this usually the case? Maybe because more people buy PUTs to hedge their bets, so the premium is relatively higher(EDIT: probably no, looking at the OI. But the question still stands)?

If so, is it more beneficial to look to sell PUTs near expiry than selling CALLs?

Edited October 27, 2017 by randomGuy

[velu]

3 hours ago, randomGuy said:

question on selling options near to expiry - 

nifty 30th Nov. expiry ( one working day left to expiry) -

https://www.nseindia.com/live_market/dynaContent/live_watch/option_chain/optionKeys.jsp

spot price is ~10300. lets examine premiums at +/- 400 pts. so, 9900 PUT has 29.35 and, 10700 CALL has 17.10 premium. PUT has higher premium. Is this usually the case? Maybe because more people buy PUTs to hedge their bets, so the premium is relatively higher(EDIT: probably no, looking at the OI. But the question still stands)?

If so, is it more beneficial to look to sell PUTs near expiry than selling CALLs?

we have another 30 days for november f&o  expiry ..  

 

OTM puts are ALMOST always costlier than OTM calls for the strike distance esp in index..

one of the main reason that  which is relevant to indian market is MFs and big houses tend to write calls for extra income ( so more sellers ) ..

and there are relatively more buyers for puts who wants to hedge ( my guess is put writers are typical guys who are short on derivative market )..

 

in index it is better not to be a seller of the options .. or main strategy shhould be on the long side of either call or put or both..

stock options have relatively higher premiums 

 

 

Edited October 27, 2017 by velu

[velu]

paper trading results on bank nifty iron condor .. ( i am fully into result trading now )

today is a sure shot day for this .. premiums are insanely high when it oppened )

 

Friday:- ( 28-10 , nov , nov 25000/24900 call & put .. 25400/24500 call & put )
==========

9.55:  177 + 184  = 361 , 60 + 52 = 112 => 249
01:45: 175 + 145  = 320 , 52 + 45 = 97  => 223  => 26
02:45: 164 + 136  = 300 , 47 + 43 = 90  => 210  => 39
03:15: 143 + 172  = 315 , 38 + 58 = 96  => 219  => 30

 

BN moved just 30pts from 9.55 to 2.45pm..

for 30 lots ( 12L marin used .. MIS .. usual trade time is 9.55 to 2.45pm ) .. net pft is approximately 39pts .. 39 * 1200 = ~45k

 

9.55 to 3.30 analysis ( i just take EOD data for analysing what might have happened cases ) ..

if it moved up 400pts ( net 370 movement ) from the current closing level = ~40 pt loss ( 50k loss )

if it moved down 400pts ( net 430 pt movemebt ) from the current closing level = ~35 pt loss ( 42/43k loss )

 

actual loss will be little less than this theoritical level because deep options will have very less intrinsic value ..

 

[tweaker]

What is the best way to use Bracket orders & Cover orders in zerodha.Most of the time my stop loss gets hit & market moves .

[velu]

15 hours ago, tweaker said:

What is the best way to use Bracket orders & Cover orders in zerodha.Most of the time my stop loss gets hit & market moves .

 

never used BO and CO  because my postions need manual covering , but both bo/co are real good tools for intraday trading..

 

i have different problem though.. i want to buy/sell multiple option starikes in bulk , currently i am splitting the orders into 5/6 small orders and placing it as market orders..

think  there migth be a better way like pseudo automation of the trades using kite apis

 

[jusarrived]

On 27/10/2017 at 1:29 PM, velu said:

 

looks like we need to put lots of efforts then ..

i am yet to explore the fetaures of zerodha like we can run scripts on multiple stocks and notify us when there is a trigger ..

 

also they have this kite api , where we can pseuco automate the trades .. if my BN works out , i can either do it by myself or ask any developer todo it for me ..

need to use them only for filling orders .. if i do 30 lots of BN iron condor in the morning , i need to put 18 to 24 orders in 3/4 mins

Effort is only till you get a hang of it . I did  hundreds of small margin trades before I moved to futures . Now I just have to look at the chart for 2 mins . I bought 4 lots of SBI on thursday when it gaped up at 330 and further spiked up to 350 in 15 mins , I entered at 339 and sold 343 in less than 5 mins . Without the charts help there is no way I would have entered SBI after a 60rs jump previous day , may be one odd day when am feeling very brave or stupid lol . And you could easily see it was going to come down immediately and if I had few more minutes of breather I would have definately shorted it . 

 

The only issue I have is manually filtering stocks , not necesaarily you will check a specific stock when it looks great for a trade . Good trades are fairly easy to find . Now I stick to some of my fav stocks which have some momentum like REL , Jubliant , Ashok Leyland , SBI , Yes Bank , ICICI etc . Not the best way to do it . 

 

Yeah I have been reading Zerodha's documents about pi , need to spend some time on scripting these triggers . 

[jusarrived]

16 hours ago, tweaker said:

What is the best way to use Bracket orders & Cover orders in zerodha.Most of the time my stop loss gets hit & market moves .

Though am new on zerodha , I use both . Works for me . I like CO better than BO , cos i like to exit my trades on my own but BO is much simpler to use if you are lookin at very small profits . 

if stop loss gets hit regularly then the problem is either you are picking the wrong stock at the wrong time  or you have a problem with your exit strategy  , by which I mean your entry timing is good but you wait for higher profits .

Also its important to have a clear strategy . Have some strict rules of dos and donts .

[jusarrived]

22 hours ago, velu said:

paper trading results on bank nifty iron condor .. ( i am fully into result trading now )

today is a sure shot day for this .. premiums are insanely high when it oppened )

 

Friday:- ( 28-10 , nov , nov 25000/24900 call & put .. 25400/24500 call & put )
==========

9.55:  177 + 184  = 361 , 60 + 52 = 112 => 249
01:45: 175 + 145  = 320 , 52 + 45 = 97  => 223  => 26
02:45: 164 + 136  = 300 , 47 + 43 = 90  => 210  => 39
03:15: 143 + 172  = 315 , 38 + 58 = 96  => 219  => 30

 

BN moved just 30pts from 9.55 to 2.45pm..

for 30 lots ( 12L marin used .. MIS .. usual trade time is 9.55 to 2.45pm ) .. net pft is approximately 39pts .. 39 * 1200 = ~45k

 

9.55 to 3.30 analysis ( i just take EOD data for analysing what might have happened cases ) ..

if it moved up 400pts ( net 370 movement ) from the current closing level = ~40 pt loss ( 50k loss )

if it moved down 400pts ( net 430 pt movemebt ) from the current closing level = ~35 pt loss ( 42/43k loss )

 

actual loss will be little less than this theoritical level because deep options will have very less intrinsic value ..

 

Can you recommend some simple option strategy for second half of the day if there is one ? Someting I can enter at ~12:00 , thats where I want to strictly end my Futures trading cos I have to leave for work by then and options are I feel relatively easy to track . 

[velu]

22 minutes ago, jusarrived said:

Can you recommend some simple option strategy for second half of the day if there is one ? Someting I can enter at ~12:00 , thats where I want to strictly end my Futures trading cos I have to leave for work by then and options are I feel relatively easy to track . 

 

initally i tried short strangle/straddle from 9.25 to 10.45am and then again 1.45pm to 3.15pm .. realized it its a very dangerous trade sooner than later even i am online in those time 

 

you can still do iron condor at 12pm  if the premiums are good .. smaller the timeframe , risk gets reduced and so does the profits/losses

havent seen big premium depreciation from 10 to 12 on most of the days that i observed  ..

 

edit:-

i am really comfortable in delta neutral strategies than predicting the movement in indices and taking sides

Edited October 28, 2017 by velu

[jusarrived]

18 hours ago, velu said:

 

initally i tried short strangle/straddle from 9.25 to 10.45am and then again 1.45pm to 3.15pm .. realized it its a very dangerous trade sooner than later even i am online in those time 

 

you can still do iron condor at 12pm  if the premiums are good .. smaller the timeframe , risk gets reduced and so does the profits/losses

havent seen big premium depreciation from 10 to 12 on most of the days that i observed  ..

 

edit:-

i am really comfortable in delta neutral strategies than predicting the movement in indices and taking sides

hmm not very comfortable shorting options , so iron condor or short strangle/straddle is little difficult for me . Do these work on nifty as well or just bn ? 

[velu]

2 hours ago, jusarrived said:

hmm not very comfortable shorting options , so iron condor or short strangle/straddle is little difficult for me . Do these work on nifty as well or just bn ? 

 

we are hedging it , i feel we can initate the trades and sleep as well ..

because big moves are comparatively rare ( and if there are any events , we shld avoid trading as well ) ..

 

this is intraday strategy utilising time decay , this wont work on nifty intraday .. but will work if we take positional trades

this is very low risk and very return startegy relatively for trading

[jusarrived]

On 28/10/2017 at 7:59 AM, tweaker said:

What is the best way to use Bracket orders & Cover orders in zerodha.Most of the time my stop loss gets hit & market moves .

Just remembered something and wanted to add to what I told earlier . 

When you do BO specifically , be very careful about trigger price . it picks the LTP as trigger price , so make sure you check that every time and change it if required . Also when you buy/sell you check the bid/offer price for market orders , not the LTP . Stocks like Jublinat , UBL etc sometimes there is a difference of 3-4 rs between the offer price and bid price . 

[jusarrived]

19 hours ago, velu said:

 

we are hedging it , i feel we can initate the trades and sleep as well ..

because big moves are comparatively rare ( and if there are any events , we shld avoid trading as well ) ..

 

this is intraday strategy utilising time decay , this wont work on nifty intraday .. but will work if we take positional trades

this is very low risk and very return startegy relatively for trading

lol@ sleeping :)

ok , lets see ..need to spend some time before I go ahead . 

[velu]

RCOM to shut voice call

 

Anil Ambani's RCom To Shut Voice Calls In A Month: Here's Why

 

[velu]

source of financial advice for indians ..

spouse

 

:

 

[jusarrived]

@velu

 

Do you use a CA to file taxes ? what do you normally show as expenses ? 

[velu]

3 hours ago, jusarrived said:

@velu

 

Do you use a CA to file taxes ? what do you normally show as expenses ? 

 

in personal trading account if the turnover crosses 2 crores we need a CA audit , ( we need a CA audit as well if the profits are less than 6% of the turnover and we have to pay some tax ) ..

cleartax asked me to go for CA audit for my personala trading account , but i gave zerodhas P/L statement and they filed it without CA assesment ( i sent a mail sasying i am responsbile for the consequence )..

 

i registered a LLP firm for trading and doing trade using that account .. have to file the retruns through auditor only..

 

as of now i am showing only the ebill , internet and mobile bill..

i can claim HRA benefits if i rent a house/office on my  LLP name .. it has got many other tax benefits which i am yet to utilize ( car lease , depreciation , employee salary etc )

Edited November 6, 2017 by velu