T420 Champions: India

[yoda]

the players are of course answerable to the fans as they are the paying customers. it is like an airline. let's say the airline is the BCCI, the hostess and the pilot are like the players and the fans are like the passengers. who do you think the hostesses and the pilots are answerable to? The board of directors and CEO of the airline or to the passengers or both? The answer is both.

[Guest HariSampath]

mujhe bola ki hari ko....?:omg_smile:

Rads, I think that reponse was raised as a rhetoric, anyways. I am not saying it is for the money. In fact I had not had a situation where I had to dish out Rs 20,000 to see a ODI ( the price of the highest class tkt in Chennai), because fortunately I get a complimentary pass for the best seat in the stadium, right behind the TV camera above the pavilion's terrace stand above the sight screen, in front of the press box, all the times any international game is played in Chennai, for the last 15 years. But even assuming that I had to pay money like almost all of the 65,000 spectators who are not as fortunate as me to have big connections in cricket administration, I would certainly feel cheated in a game similar to the one I described to shwetab. The thing is less about money than the mental investment we all give cricket, the love we have for the game, and the facat we all want to see a good cricket match played in which both teams fight tooth and nail, and take 100% effort to win the match for their side, and then naturally when India wins we all are very happy. I am no different. But when this faith in the game itself is abused and if it turns out that some/many of the players playing that match were not really trying hard enough to win for the team but merely participating for a reason other than winning for the team ( it could be anything, I don't care), I naturally feel cheated because it is artificial competetive situation and apart from robbing me of the faith it was a contested game , and also the very joy of watching cricket. Just imagine would you attend a game between a India XI and a Pakistan XI with all top players, but played for raising money for the cause of some charity ( say $10 tkt ) or a match between India A and Pakistan A and the tkt is $20, if both are played in your city on the same day. Those who want to see a serious tough contest that is played to win may not mind spending $20 to go to the A teams playing , because it is a real match. The level of competetiveness cannot be there in a charity match ( even if the cause is good) played even between the top sides of both countries, because neither team will think it is absolutely necessary to win as if all depended on it. I hope you have the answer PS This was a main reason for me to raise that very important question to shwethab about my last ball six hypothetical situation, which was meant for all others too

[The Outsider]

So then the question comes full circle - Does a Sachin or a Dravid play for BCCI or do they play for India and Indians?

In the scheme of employee-employer relationship they play for the BCCI. As to their internal motivation, I have no idea.

I think you have just shot yourself in the foot and am going on a personal attack aka mind-reading. If anything get mad at yourself since the fault essentially lies with your argument.

No, you have started attributing statements to me which I did not make.

Rather interesting to see you call them professionals and then forget the fundamental of professionalism - money drives success. Period.

Where did I even enter that discussion? Are you sure you are reading and answering on ICF?

Where were you when there was an thread on ICF just a few days back as to how young kids in India are taking cricket because of economic benefits?

I don't know which thread you are talking about. I don't read all threads here, not because I don't want to but because of time constraints.

[Lurker]

In the scheme of employee-employer relationship they play for the BCCI. As to their internal motivation, I have no idea.

Long story short they DO NOT play for India but for BCCI. Thanks for clearing that up!

Where did I even enter that discussion? Are you sure you are reading and answering on ICF?

Check what you have wrote within this thread, specifically post 77 and 110. You can call it any banner you want but they are professionals doing a job and don't owe us anything These players are professionals doing a job, if they are not giving their 100% and not performing they will be thrown out by their pay masters ie. BCCI. They have no responsibility towards you or anyone else but the BCCI to give 100% or 200%. So yes you have mentioned the word Professionalism more than enough time to enter the discussion. And I am sure you realize the word Professionalism originates from Profession. And you do understand what profession is, it is directly linked to your livelihood. Money, dinaro, rupee, mullah whatever you want to call it.

I don't know which thread you are talking about. I don't read all threads here, not because I don't want to but because of time constraints.

http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showthread.php?t=44795 I went recently to interview youngsters and ask them why they play and one of the people said it was for fame and fortune. He loved to play cricket but the end goal was different," says senior cricket journalist Sharda Ugra No wonder that thread received one reply only. xxx

[Guest HariSampath]

Quote by shwetabh I don't quite understand this view at all. These players are professionals doing a job, if they are not giving their 100% and not performing they will be thrown out by their pay masters ie. BCCI. They have no responsibility towards you or anyone else but the BCCI to give 100% or 200%. We have no rights to demand anything from them just as they don't have any rights to demand a 100% performance from us in our jobs. We like the sport, we watch it, we have fun. If our team does well, we feel happy, if they suck we are disappointed. End of story. 1. would you be satisfied with a contest where both teams are playing half heartedly 2. Since you have said that you don't feel that strongly about the team winning or losing, and that you would just switch off and move on ( perfectly valid I might add), it appears to me that you don't place much store in the fact that both teams need to play for the right reasons of competing in a sport. 3. this idea that whether the players need to give 100% or not and not in anyway answerable to the fans is not valid in anyway. Because it is not as if the BCCI advertised for players to apply for vacant cricketers positions. Cricketers had got there playing cricket competitively through the juniors , states and the system and the end "product" you speak of is a result of competition all the way. This is a game and sustains itself on the uncertainities, excitement, skills and all else, moving toeards a result, that assumes that each participant has done all possible things to try and win the game for his team, and this is the only interest for the fan. NOT a situation where they are employees answerable to their direct employers who are in turn answerable to their sponsors etc. To bring out what is it that excites you was why I asked that hypothetical question of the last ball six. If the cricketers batting and bowling is what you like, would you sit and watch 6 hours of tough net practice ?

[The Outsider]

By the way, Lurker, the mind reader comment was not a personal attack. You claim to know for sure that Tendulkar and Dravid play for money and not India. I am only inquiring the basis of your conclusion and my naive mind could think of only two things - you know the guys personally or you are a mind reader.I have clearly said that I don't know what their internal motivation is as I know neither of them on a personal basis nor am I a mind reader.

[Lurker]

By the way' date=' Lurker, the mind reader comment was not a personal attack. You claim to know for sure that Tendulkar and Dravid play for money and not India. I am only inquiring the basis of your conclusion and my naive mind could think of only two things - you know the guys personally or you are a mind reader.I have clearly said that I don't know what their internal motivation is as I know neither of them on a personal basis nor am I a mind reader.[/quote'] It is actually very easy. These players are all professionals. Cricket is their livelihood. Their source of income. It is foolish to look at them with a different spectacle. I am sure you are smart enough to realize the difference between Professionals and Amateurs. The latter take up a game/hobby/job purely as passion. The former does the same for money. if players play for the love of the game and that only, what was wrong with Amateur era? xxx

[veer]

soo anyone saw good bolly movie lately?

[The Outsider]

Long story short they DO NOT play for India but for BCCI. Thanks for clearing that up!

Are you talking about internal motivation or official hierarchy? Can you please answer that?

So yes you have mentioned the word Professionalism more than enough time to enter the discussion. And I am sure you realize the word Professionalism originates from Profession. And you do understand what profession is, it is directly linked to your livelihood. Money, dinaro, rupee, mullah whatever you want to call it.

There is more to professionalism than money.

I went recently to interview youngsters and ask them why they play and one of the people said it was for fame and fortune. He loved to play cricket but the end goal was different," says senior cricket journalist Sharda Ugra

A sample size of 1. I am not giving my conclusions about what drives youngsters to play cricket because quite simply I don't know the answer but for it to hold any scientific weight, the study needs to be done in a proper scientific manner rather than interview a few people randomly.

[Guest HariSampath]

As for the new ball thing, I don't know what to say really. Lee and Johnson are bowlers in their prime and at the top of their game. Our openers are either not technically sound enough or old warhorses with declining skills. I would expect Australia to trump our openers on most occasions

Exactly. this is what I had come to when I kept saying the team needs to look at this aspect without being carried away by one 90 run partnership and one win which may have made it appear our top order was sound and the win meant we won it by our top order skill

[coffee_rules]

I think BCCI already got a ruling in a Indian coury (Delhi High court) that the Indian cricket team doesn't represent India and the govt has no saying in the matters of BCCI. The cricket players/BCCI have no responsibility as far as the fans go. They arenot putting a gun to the fans' heads to watch cricket. The fans are going crazy about the sport on their own free will.

[Lurker]

Are you talking about internal motivation or official hierarchy? Can you please answer that?

As per your stance(and it has all started with your post about players playing for BCCI and NOT me or you - thread 77 me thinks), it should not make a difference.

There is more to professionalism than money.

Ah yes, if you can't convince them confuse them. Professionalism comes from profession, which means your livelihood. Simple. Lets not beat around it. Sure a man can enjoy his profession for matters other than money but dont make a mistake as to where money figures in hierarchy of professionals.

A sample size of 1. I am not giving my conclusions about what drives youngsters to play cricket because quite simply I don't know the answer but for it to hold any scientific weight, the study needs to be done in a proper scientific manner rather than interview a few people randomly.

It was an article that I just added to supplement my point of view, it certainly wasnt my only reason now was it? As for the scientific study and all, sure by all means go do that. Or just sit back and realize that Bollywood and cricket are two biggest money spinners in India and more people join them for money than those for the love of arts or bowling in-dippers. xxx

[The Outsider]

1. would you be satisfied with a contest where both teams are playing half heartedly

As a spectator I won't be. But I don't understand what you are driving at here.

2. Since you have said that you don't feel that strongly about the team winning or losing, and that you would just switch off and move on ( perfectly valid I might add), it appears to me that you don't place much store in the fact that both teams need to play for the right reasons of competing in a sport.

I feel strongly about the team winning and losing, but not to the extent of going to jail over a cricket match. Hari, your post is directed from the fans' point of view and I too immensely enjoy cricket, perhaps not to the extent of going to jail for it but even so reasonably so. But I don't believe that the players I am watching are in any way obligated towards me.

[Guest HariSampath]

The prime question I am raising is that if players are performing in a match setting without doing everything to win, how many would find it acceptable

[The Outsider]

As per your stance(and it has all started with your post about players playing for BCCI and NOT me or you - thread 77 me thinks), it should not make a difference.

I asked you a pretty straightforward question there. When you are asking me who Tendulkar and Dravid play for are you talking about their internal motivation or official hierarchy. And perhaps you can let me decide if it makes a difference in my stance rather than putting words in my mouth.

As for the scientific study and all, sure by all means go do that. Or just sit back and realize that Bollywood and cricket are two biggest money spinners in India and more people join them for money than those for the love of arts or bowling in-dippers.

Most parents would still discourage their kids from taking up cricket as a profession, specially in the middle class.

[Guest HariSampath]

As a spectator I won't be. But I don't understand what you are driving at here. I feel strongly about the team winning and losing, but not to the extent of going to jail over a cricket match. Hari, your post is directed from the fans' point of view and I too immensely enjoy cricket, perhaps not to the extent of going to jail for it but even so reasonably so. But I don't believe that the players I am watching are in any way obligated towards me.

I know u enjoy cricket and are a true fan just like me. that going to jail was a hyperbole for expressing what I felt and which u feel too. so we all go to cricket matches thinking that we are seeing a game where teams come with a very serious plan to be superior that day for a result in their favor but this is a crux issue now. forget for a momentwho pays who money.... bottom line is in my hypothetical situation we ALL expect that the chap playing has to attempt a sixer. period.if the fellow has his own agenda, we all get mad and also cheated. there can be no 2 opnions.

[Lurker]

I asked you a pretty straightforward question there. When you are asking me who Tendulkar and Dravid play for are you talking about their internal motivation or official hierarchy. And perhaps you can let me decide if it makes a difference in my stance rather than putting words in my mouth.

So firstly you are unable to defend what you say. Then attack becomes the best form of defence eh? As for SRT and Dravid, or anyone else, I have made it amply clear that they are professionals and by the very definition of the term cricket is their JOB. Do you understand what JOB means? It means that you get a pay check every x number of days. It means you work for someone/something and earn your living. It means you are NOT an Amateur and your services are renumerated. Yes they play for money. Next question.

Most parents would still discourage their kids from taking up cricket as a profession, specially in the middle class.

:hysterical: Just like the same parents want their kids to take to IIT/CBSE/AIIMS exams? You do realize that the reason middle class parents do that(push kids towards IIT) is to have a well-paying job when the kid comes out of the college and NOT because they love Mechanical Engineering or want their kids to be a Neurosurgeon and then go serve in the villages of India. xxx

[The Outsider]

but this is a crux issue now. forget for a momentwho pays who money.... bottom line is in my hypothetical situation we ALL expect that the chap playing has to attempt a sixer. period.if the fellow has his own agenda, we all get mad and also cheated.

I agree on that but to extrapolate from here and say that the batsman was duty bound towards me to attempt the six is wrong IMO. He was duty bound towards his employer to attempt the six. I was only a customer who got a sub standard product.

[The Outsider]

So firstly you are unable to defend what you say. Then attack becomes the best form of defence eh? As for SRT and Dravid, or anyone else, I have made it amply clear that they are professionals and by the very definition of the term cricket is their JOB. Do you understand what JOB means? It means that you get a pay check every x number of days. It means you work for someone/something and earn your living. It means you are NOT an Amateur and your services are renumerated. Yes they play for money. Next question.

Unable to defend what? You still have not clarified your question - When you are asking me who Tendulkar and Dravid play for are you talking about their internal motivation or official hierarchy? It's not that difficult.

Just like the same parents want their kids to take to IIT/CBSE/AIIMS exams? You do realize that the reason middle class parents do that(push kids towards IIT) is to have a well-paying job when the kid comes out of the college and NOT because they love Mechanical Engineering or want their kids to be a Neurosurgeon and then go serve in the villages of India.

Exactly and the fact that they discourage their children from taking up cricket perhaps reflects the fact that cricket is not the big money spinner you are talking about, except for the 20-25 players who manage to reach the top.

[beetle]

It's a game Hari...One team wins and the other team loses... the weaker team usually ends up losing .... Sometimes a weak team also wins...and that is a bonus for normal fans like us.... I don't believe people don't give their 100 %...and if some one feels so they are welcome to not follow the player. Paying money for cricket (big or small amount) is not a sure shot investment in happiness... It is more like gamble.....you win some and lose some. You want a better return for your money..?..support a stronger team. If you are not supporting the stronger team....then be prepared to lose some...(matches and money) without too much heart burn.