Sreesanth haters come out of the cave

[msb1991]

The bowler is deliberately sacrificing speed for movement and variation. I wouldn't have thought for a moment that Sreesanth uses that delivery six out of six.

It is not a delivery, more a style of bowling. Basically, it means that his ball spends more time in the air, which is great for swing, but not too great when you want to hit the bat hard and prevent runs.

[Dhondy]

It is not a delivery' date=' more a style of bowling. Basically, it means that his ball spends more time in the air, which is great for swing, but not too great when you want to hit the bat hard and prevent runs.[/quote'] That's rather simplistic. I am sure you know what you are talking about, msb, but you are not making a convincing case. You need to elaborate and tell me why swing or seam movement achieved with "backspin"will not be successful in ODIs.

[Ram]

Sreesanth has too many performances of this nature. I understand that, as an attacking swing bowler, he is bound to go for some a few times, but surely, it cant be once every 5 matches. But honestly, I wouldnt read too much into yesterday's performance from Sreesanth. I would rather watch him perform in a 50 over match before commenting on his utility as a one-day bowler.

[Guest HariSampath]

^ Sriram, what are you talking of once in 5 games in 50 overs ODI ???? please refer to my posts 42 & 45 above...

[Guest dada_rocks]

Backspin ( from what i understand): when u put ur fingers along seam while releasing the ball and give a jerkof wrist thereby imparting a torque along the seam.. ball moves forward while rotating towards the bowler around its axis parallel to ground while seam is upright.. It'skind of fast bowler's version of leg spinner's top-spin delivery with spin being in opposite direction.

[Ram]

^ Sriram' date=' what are you talking of once in 5 games in 50 overs ODI ???? please refer to my posts 42 & 45 above...[/quote'] Agree Hari. If you would have remembered, I have expressed my reservations too, in the past, about Sree's utility as a one-day bowler. Right now, he is just filling in for RPS, I am sure.

[fineleg]

Agree Hari. If you would have remembered, I have expressed my reservations too, in the past, about Sree's utility as a one-day bowler. Right now, he is just filling in for RPS, I am sure.

Yez - once RPS and ZK are fit, then SS will be in ODI squad maybe, but not in the ODI 11

[maaki]

So is there a worlds fastest Back Spinner :haha::yay:

[msb1991]

That's rather simplistic. I am sure you know what you are talking about, msb, but you are not making a convincing case. You need to elaborate and tell me why swing or seam movement achieved with "backspin"will not be successful in ODIs.

Sorry for oversimplifying things, have not had a lot of time to post. Backspin on the ball is imparted by all fast bowlers who are not attempting to bowl a cutter. Since the arm is in a downward motion throughout the bowling action, the backspin is necessary for a fast bowler to get the ball to travel forward rather than straight into the pitch, obviously the momentum of an action also contributes somewhat to this too. The amount of backspin a bowler imparts on the ball is largely natural and subconscious. It determines the trajectory of their bowling. Somebody who imparts limited backspin on the ball, like Alex Tudor for example, will bowl what is known as a 'heavy ball'. A heavy ball is when a medium pace bowler hits the bat very hard. This occurs because a bowler is not imparting much backspin on the ball and so is bowling with a more greater emphasis of bowling into the pitch. The ball loses forward velocity off the pitch through this but gains upward velocity, creating the 'heavy ball'. Somebody who bowls with much backspin tends to be a swing bowler. Backspin on the ball increases airflow, which causes an increase in swing (CBA to go into the whole theory of swing). Increased airflow will mean that there are greater drag forces on the ball which will cause the ball to stay in the air longer than otherwise. This will give the ball more time to swing but also give a batsman more time to react when a bowler bowls absolute crap, like Sreesanth does on a regular basis. A batsman will have more time to react to a wide ball and even get into position of a short of a length ball. Increased backspin also causes the ball to 'kiss the pitch' instead of rocketing into it. This actually causes greater carry through to the wicket keeper and it is a reason why Sreesanth's good length deliveries are seen as unplayable and why his bouncer is tricky, although it does not seem to rise too viciously.

[Dhondy]

Sorry for oversimplifying things, have not had a lot of time to post. Backspin on the ball is imparted by all fast bowlers who are not attempting to bowl a cutter. Since the arm is in a downward motion throughout the bowling action, the backspin is necessary for a fast bowler to get the ball to travel forward rather than straight into the pitch, obviously the momentum of an action also contributes somewhat to this too. The amount of backspin a bowler imparts on the ball is largely natural and subconscious. It determines the trajectory of their bowling. Somebody who imparts limited backspin on the ball, like Alex Tudor for example, will bowl what is known as a 'heavy ball'. A heavy ball is when a medium pace bowler hits the bat very hard. This occurs because a bowler is not imparting much backspin on the ball and so is bowling with a more greater emphasis of bowling into the pitch. The ball loses forward velocity off the pitch through this but gains upward velocity, creating the 'heavy ball'. Somebody who bowls with much backspin tends to be a swing bowler. Backspin on the ball increases airflow, which causes an increase in swing (CBA to go into the whole theory of swing). Increased airflow will mean that there are greater drag forces on the ball which will cause the ball to stay in the air longer than otherwise. This will give the ball more time to swing but also give a batsman more time to react when a bowler bowls absolute crap, like Sreesanth does on a regular basis. A batsman will have more time to react to a wide ball and even get into position of a short of a length ball. Increased backspin also causes the ball to 'kiss the pitch' instead of rocketing into it. This actually causes greater carry through to the wicket keeper and it is a reason why Sreesanth's good length deliveries are seen as unplayable and why his bouncer is tricky, although it does not seem to rise too viciously.

That's fascinating. You seem to have studied this very well. I have however seen bowlers swing the ball and cut it off the pitch- Sreesanth himself has done this on occasions. From what you describe, seaming and swinging are exclusive to each other. How do they achieve a combination?

[Ram]

Sorry for oversimplifying things, have not had a lot of time to post. Backspin on the ball is imparted by all fast bowlers who are not attempting to bowl a cutter. Since the arm is in a downward motion throughout the bowling action, the backspin is necessary for a fast bowler to get the ball to travel forward rather than straight into the pitch, obviously the momentum of an action also contributes somewhat to this too. The amount of backspin a bowler imparts on the ball is largely natural and subconscious. It determines the trajectory of their bowling. Somebody who imparts limited backspin on the ball, like Alex Tudor for example, will bowl what is known as a 'heavy ball'. A heavy ball is when a medium pace bowler hits the bat very hard. This occurs because a bowler is not imparting much backspin on the ball and so is bowling with a more greater emphasis of bowling into the pitch. The ball loses forward velocity off the pitch through this but gains upward velocity, creating the 'heavy ball'. Somebody who bowls with much backspin tends to be a swing bowler. Backspin on the ball increases airflow, which causes an increase in swing (CBA to go into the whole theory of swing). Increased airflow will mean that there are greater drag forces on the ball which will cause the ball to stay in the air longer than otherwise. This will give the ball more time to swing but also give a batsman more time to react when a bowler bowls absolute crap, like Sreesanth does on a regular basis. A batsman will have more time to react to a wide ball and even get into position of a short of a length ball. Increased backspin also causes the ball to 'kiss the pitch' instead of rocketing into it. This actually causes greater carry through to the wicket keeper and it is a reason why Sreesanth's good length deliveries are seen as unplayable and why his bouncer is tricky, although it does not seem to rise too viciously.

Me thinks that post is riddled with glaring scientific/logical irregularities. There are too assumptions/generalizations there, without being fully aware of the mechanics of a moving ball, its impact with the pitch etc.

[Gambit]

Looks like the thread starter has gone back into his own 'cave' after today's game. :D

[msb1991]

That's fascinating. You seem to have studied this very well. I have however seen bowlers swing the ball and cut it off the pitch- Sreesanth himself has done this on occasions. From what you describe, seaming and swinging are exclusive to each other. How do they achieve a combination?

The ball appears to cut when it hits the seam. Remember that the seam is not entirely smooth. It is also a possibility to bowl with a straight (but tilted) seam and it hits the edge of the seam. You can tell a cutter because it is about 10-20kph slower than the stock ball.

[msb1991]

Me thinks that post is riddled with glaring scientific/logical irregularities.

You want to show me any specifics? (Sounds like a bad tone, not meant to be)

[Ram]

You want to show me any specifics?

No, wait till I post my reservations and if possible, respond after that. The crux of my point though is this, you have made a LOT of scientific assumptions, dunno how many of them are actually true.

[msb1991]

The crux of my point though is this' date=' you have made a LOT of scientific assumptions, dunno how many of them are actually true.[/quote'] None of what I have posted is individual assumption by myself. I am well read in fast bowling and have infered a lot of this information from coaching books and watching games myself.

[Ram]

Sorry for oversimplifying things, have not had a lot of time to post. Backspin on the ball is imparted by all fast bowlers who are not attempting to bowl a cutter. Since the arm is in a downward motion throughout the bowling action, the backspin is necessary for a fast bowler to get the ball to travel forward rather than straight into the pitch, obviously the momentum of an action also contributes somewhat to this too.

The backspin of the ball doesnt ensure the ball moves forward and not down straight into the pitch, but rather, its the horizontal component of the velocity of the ball. As you might be aware, once the ball is released from the bowler's hand, it will have two components of velocity. The vertical component, due to gravity and the horizontal component, due to force imparted by the bowler. So, stating that the backspin of the ball is what makes the ball move forward, rather than straight into the pitch is the first error that i could find out.

The amount of backspin a bowler imparts on the ball is largely natural and subconscious. It determines the trajectory of their bowling. Somebody who imparts limited backspin on the ball' date= like Alex Tudor for example, will bowl what is known as a 'heavy ball'. A heavy ball is when a medium pace bowler hits the bat very hard. This occurs because a bowler is not imparting much backspin on the ball and so is bowling with a more greater emphasis of bowling into the pitch. The ball loses forward velocity off the pitch through this but gains upward velocity, creating the 'heavy ball'.

Again, not entirely correct. You have interchanged the cause and effect. The backspin is an effect of the release of the ball by the bowler, and not a cause of the trajectory. The trajectory of the ball, similar to a stone thrown from the top of the cliff, is dependent mostly on its velocity components, gravity and atmospheric drag. The most common scientific analogy i can come up with is the bullet. Both the bullet's and the ball's trajectories are a parabola, but coz of the different value of the component velocities, they travel different distances. Atmospheric drag is generally considered negligible and therefore, omitted from most scientific calculations. Will address the rest of your points as and when I find time.

[observer1]

Will address the rest of your points as and when I find time.

NOOOOOOOO PUHHLLEAAAAAZE. Cook your sambar, eat your brown rice, do the things that Dhondy tells you, but dont waste any more time on this. I doubt if the MRF Pace Academy has looked into bowling in as much detail as you guys have in this thread.

[Dhondy]

NOOOOOOOO PUHHLLEAAAAAZE. Cook your sambar, eat your brown rice, do the things that Dhondy tells you, but dont waste any more time on this. I doubt if the MRF Pace Academy has looked into bowling in as much detail as you guys have in this thread.

Here comes the spoilsport. As usual.:((

[Ram]

NOOOOOOOO PUHHLLEAAAAAZE. Cook your sambar, eat your brown rice, do the things that Dhondy tells you, but dont waste any more time on this. I doubt if the MRF Pace Academy has looked into bowling in as much detail as you guys have in this thread.

Aaah.... Shilpa Pappodom anybody ?