coffee_rules Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 I doubt it is the main reason.... If it is ...then the wife is being unreasonable...but I very much doubt it is. Why, do men have thekedaari in that dept of being unreasonable? Women can be unreasonable, selfish, khudgarz and they are not aasmaan-se-uthari huyi pari. The problem is that the wife leaves her home and comes to a new home where the husband becomes the centre of her life. She expects the husband to reciprocate the same and make her the centre of his life.Why else did he marry her.....? Why does the bahu expect him to make her the center of his life? Why does wife have to be the center of the husband's life. Why do they have so much insecurity? There in it lies half the problem. Most problems in the saas bahu relationship in a joint family can be solved if the saas stops being possesive about her son. Let the bahu have the complete attention of the guy in in the first few years. In a few years , infatuation in the relationship gives way to a real relationship and the bahu is more than willing to get sometime off from the husband. Unfortunately most MIL let possesiveness and jealousy spoil the relatioship.The ones that let go of the son for a while get to keep the son for life. Let's hear from you when you have a son and he marries somebody very possesive. Will you be the same saas you expect others to be? It's very easy to expect, but difficult to let go. Esp for 60s gen saas'es who were not very secure in life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beetle Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 >>>Why, do men have thekedaari in that dept of being unreasonable? Women can be unreasonable, selfish, khudgarz and they are not aasmaan-se-uthari huyi pari. hain...did you read..I wrote the woman was unreasonable in this case if it was just that reason. >>>Why does the bahu expect him to make her the center of his life? Why does wife have to be the center of the husband's life. Why do they have so much insecurity? There in it lies half the problem. If you don't want to make each other the centre of your life then what is the use of marrying..... Marriage is not about cohabiting only...there has to be that element of romance... >>>>Let's hear from you when you have a son and he marries somebody very possesive. Will you be the same saas you expect others to be? It's very easy to expect, but difficult to let go. Esp for 60s gen saas'es who were not very secure in life. Why is it not easy to let go? Do you see the girl's parents not let go? Have you ever seen this conflict (in indian situation) where the girl's father doesn't let go of his daughter and the husband has to deal with his wife's possesive father....? Why the double standards? If I do have one...the guy is going to get out ofmy house the day he can afford and no way is he getting a wife to live with us. Marry only when you can afford to.....Have a good life with her...visit us a few times every year and don't expect us to bring up your kids..... If only the guys had to live with their mother in laws ...they would appreciate what their wives in joint families have to go through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fineleg Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 If I do have one...the guy is going to get out ofmy house the day he can afford and no way is he getting a wife to live with us. Marry only when you can afford to.....Have a good life with her...visit us a few times every year and don't expect us to bring up your kids..... . The above is super - great plan:two_thumbs_up: , hope you execute the plan as such 25 (or whatever) years later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beetle Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 I am a mean woman!...:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 hain...did you read..I wrote the woman was unreasonable in this case if it was just that reason. You were not so sure as I quote you: I was only commenting on the 'doubt' part. I doubt it is the main reason.... If it is ...then the wife is being unreasonable...but I very much doubt it is. If I do have one...the guy is going to get out ofmy house the day he can afford and no way is he getting a wife to live with us. Marry only when you can afford to.....Have a good life with her...visit us a few times every year and don't expect us to bring up your kids..... Quite a quote hanger. And I also believe in Santa Claus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 If only the guys had to live with their mother in laws ...they would appreciate what their wives in joint families have to go through. Your point is bit confusing Beetle. You keep suggesting how a girl's life is made tough by her MIL and then at the same time keep having a go at the boy with a "Can a boy live with his mother-in-law"? In the posts you have made in this thread you always seems to have a go at MIL and their treatment of bahus and still fail to understand that this is NOT a inter-sex fight but intra-sex actually. Put it simply, maybe the women folks should get their $hit together? I mean you dont see a tv serial called - Kyun Sasur bhi kabhi daamad tha? Isnt it always Saas bhi bahut thi and all that? xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beetle Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 Lurker....It's very difficult to start living with an older person under their roof ,and their rules when you haven't shared most of your life with them. A girl gets married.....goes into a new home(in a joint family situation) and has to live with her in laws ,under their rules .These are people who are almost strangers...who haven't brought her up in anyway. But suddenly she is expected to put them even above the parents that gave birth to her and have brought her up.This is an extremely artificial forced bonding. I don't think most men would care about living with their mom in laws(now don't go about saying how can that happen?)under her terms and conditions. Just be greatful the guys don't have to shift to the girl's place...nahi to sab saas ka dukhda ro rahe hote. Fact of the matter is that guys cannot understand something they never have to go through. They are most of the times treated like the darlings by their mothers and as some kind of God by the in-laws. If the guys had to go through living with their inlaws ,following their rules..you would see lots of Kyun Sasur bhi kabhi daamad tha? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beetle Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 >>>Quite a quote hanger. And I also believe in Santa Claus. Can't help it if you are a non believer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 A girl gets married.....goes into a new home(in a joint family situation) and has to live with her in laws ,under their rules .These are people who are almost strangers...who haven't brought her up in anyway. But suddenly she is expected to put them even above the parents that gave birth to her and have brought her up.This is an extremely artificial forced bonding. Not convincing at all. That is akin to an argument whereby a person who likes to study Biology is actually put in a Maths background and expected to ace it. Wont happen. I had raised a point quite early in this thread and I will re-iterate it again. No girl is fooled going into the marriage of what the expectations are. If they are not happy with the arrangement, dont dive into it. Who is asking you to get married? Stay single, get yourself educated, be independent person. Men do it, why can't women as well? I am not going to sympathise with those who want to eat their cake and eat it too. I don't think most men would care about living with their mom in laws(now don't go about saying how can that happen?)under her terms and conditions. Just be greatful the guys don't have to shift to the girl's place...nahi to sab saas ka dukhda ro rahe hote. I have addressed it too as well as to why men dont move in with their in-laws. Let me ask you straight - Would you be happy if your hubby became a ghar-jamai? Give a straight yes or No please. Fact of the matter is that guys cannot understand something they never have to go through. They are most of the times treated like the darlings by their mothers and as some kind of God by the in-laws. If the guys had to go through living with their inlaws ,following their rules..you would see lots of Kyun Sasur bhi kabhi daamad tha? Sorry that is again rhetorics. The reason I am dismissing most of your argument is NOT because I am a male chauvinist but because I come from a family of extremely strong women and I have seen women triumph against those exact same odds you keep mentioning. My Mom I have already talked about, my Chachi was Principal of top college of Gaya when females harly studied in college let alone teach in one. My kid sister worked her butt off and studied in top institutes in India and abroad before acing Oxford PhD. She got married only after she knew exactly what she wanted. My suggestion is the same as ever. No one can force a girl to get married, it is only they who are in a hurry starting right from teenagers when they start dreaming about marriage. Stay in school, get your degree and be independent if you want to avoid the rut of usual ghar ka drama. xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beetle Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 >>>No girl is fooled going into the marriage of what the expectations are. If they are not happy with the arrangement, dont dive into it. Who is asking you to get married? Stay single, get yourself educated, be independent person. Men do it, why can't women as well? yeah ...that is the reality of most of the girls in India. >>>I have addressed it too as well as to why men dont move in with their in-laws. Let me ask you straight - Would you be happy if your hubby became a ghar-jamai? Give a straight yes or No please. Since you guys can't ...you have no way of knowing what it means. Don't act like girls get married in India in the most ideal conditions. Good for you lurker ...you come from a family of strong girls... I see this argument getting personal. the argument here is why the traditional families are breaking ...not my views. The fact of the matter is ...traditional joint families are breaking up because the women are getting educated and becoming independent and not willing to take it lying down from guy and the guys family.(the thread was started on the article about a women wanting a divorce because of her problems with the husband and parents). There are a few women who are independent and still happy in joint families. Chances are that these women also had understanding in laws. (again...the debate here is not about man woman relationship alone...it atarted of with a girl asking for divorce because of the in laws). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 Since you guys can't ...you have no way of knowing what it means. Don't act like girls get married in India in the most ideal conditions. Now this doesnt make sense. Your argument is hinging now solely on the fact that I am a "guy" and hence can not "understand" where you are coming from! This is quite ridiculous isn't it? Essentially you are making this a battle of sexes when it is anything but that. I see this argument getting personal. It will and I have no issues with it. This is not cricket or politics in Middle east Asia where we can all be armchair critics. If we are talking of family dismantling, girls getting pushed, guys getting sued it affects all, does it not? How does one not get a bit personal?? I personally appreciate people who are candid about their lives but of course I can't expect everyone to be that way. the argument here is why the traditional families are breaking ...not my views. The fact of the matter is ...traditional joint families are breaking up because the women are getting educated and becoming independent and not willing to take it lying down from guy and the guys family.(the thread was started on the article about a women wanting a divorce because of her problems with the husband and parents). And thats where the argument lies. For starters I am still amazed how you go after guy and guys' family (your words) when your main argument thus far has been against MIL. If only saas-bahut would get their $hit together half this jhamela would be over. You also fail to realize that if women are becoming Independent, so are men. More and more men these days choose to stay away from jhamela of marriage(and no its not because they are commitment phobe). Why would they want to marry a girl when they are more than happy with their life? Atleast they dont make bones about it. I would much rather have girls become Independent in real life and be their own person than to get married and complain about all and sundry. xxxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
living Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 I agree fineleg but sadly its not uncommon in India to pass on all the assests to the BETAS. haha, my mom already put everything in my sisters name :cantstop: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desi Cartman Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 haha' date=' my mom already put everything in my sisters name :cantstop:[/quote'] and my dad wants to divide his assets equally but frankly whats the % of the families doing that in India ? maybe 1% or 2 % As for MIL I have seen bahus being fed up with their MIL without even spending more than couple of weeks in 2 years time. Its because of insecurity not because of evil SAAS. Yes MILs can be annoying and yes they can interfere in life of their daughter as well as sons. I dont see any difference in ladke ki or ladki ki saas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC1981 Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 For starters I am still amazed how you go after guy and guys' family (your words) when your main argument thus far has been against MIL. If only saas-bahut would get their together half this jhamela would be over. You also fail to realize that if women are becoming Independent, so are men. More and more men these days choose to stay away from jhamela of marriage(and no its not because they are commitment phobe). Why would they want to marry a girl when they are more than happy with their life? Atleast they dont make bones about it. I would much rather have girls become Independent in real life and be their own person than to get married and complain about all and sundry. Lurks, i think the point Rads was making is that in Indian culture, marriage has traditionally been an unequal relationship, fundamentally geared in favour of man. For eg, it is the woman who wears the 'mangal sutra' , 'sindoor' or both- yet men arn't obligated to wear anything denoting their conjugal status. What this does is it makes extramarital affairs/thakree-giri way easier for men than for women. For whatever reason, it is considered 'unmanly' for a guy to move in with his inlaws but its perfectly okay-nay,even expected- that the girl will move in with her inlaws. This puts the guy in the driver's seat, since he is not making any significant living transition but the woman is. Whether we like to admit it or not, marriage has been traditionally unequal in desi households for a very long time- in every community- ethnic, cultural or religious. In the modern era, that is no longer satisfactory, simply because the manna of the modern era is equality. More and more women are working up the courage to defy this tradition of inequality and inflexibility. Ofcourse, you also have a point- as you said earlier, women have to understand how their roles and expectations will have to change as well if they are to persue a relationship of equality. You can't exactly clamour for equality in power when you arn't willing to be equal in means- this is not to say that if a woman doesn't earn as much as her husband, she shouldn't expect an equal relationship, it is simply saying that if women expect to have equal say in married life, they should at the same time, not expect the guy to be the sole breadwinner or treat their own jobs as a 'gentle passtime', with the serious earning issues left to the hubby. Overall, i consider the presence of divorce in a society to be a healthy thing. Having very low levels of divorce/non-existant divorce rates is not something to be proud of, it is something to be deeply concerned about. For it indicates the triumph of tradition and religion over freedom and common sense. This is simply because,as human beings, we make mistakes- there WILL be a certain percentage of couples who got married for the wrong reasons, got married too early, have drifted apart too much to make it work anymore, etc etc, not to mention, the truely malicious/f*cked up individual who is best left alone. All these types of marriages SHOULD end up in divorce and there is no 'credit/civility' etc. in forcing a compromise and making it work. You don't get points for being unhappy and simply upholding a stupid tradition of 'divorce = you are bad/you screwed up'. Overall, this is a sure sign of Indian culture growing up and becoming more and more free with each passing day- free from traditionalism of the stupidest kinds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 Whether we like to admit it or not, marriage has been traditionally unequal in desi households for a very long time- in every community- ethnic, cultural or religious. CC, you should cut down on this desi mentality thingy. The role of women does not vary as much in an Indian family as it does in say Chinese or Japanese or whatever. Nor does it vary in Middle East. The only place where marital relationship are different is in the West and it would be downright ridiculous to compare Eastern values with Western values. I am not going to buy half of this and half of that atitude. If women in India are chasing the Western values then lets start the age of intercourse at 16 as well. There is no way an Indian guy should be expected to be "Indian" when it comes to chastity and "Western" when it comes to marital relationship. Why should he? In the modern era, that is no longer satisfactory, simply because the manna of the modern era is equality. More and more women are working up the courage to defy this tradition of inequality and inflexibility. I am all for equality but I am also going to be vocal as to how little females actually beleive in this notion. Even today a guy has to pay at the date. Why? Even today male chivalry(read opening door, moving chairs etc) are considered "gentlemanly". Why? Even today 10 women killed makes a bigger news than 25 men killed. Why?? I dont mean to generalize but anyone who has worked in an Indian IT company will tell you how few of Indian girls actually buy their own vehicle in USA. More often than not it is the job of their Indian compadre to drive them around. What happens to equality here? Why are women assertive only when it comes to their hubby and meek everywhere else? Do bear in mind I make a generic statement and so it wont fit all. Equality has to be equal in all respect. I am going to support women who truly beleive in it. Women who give a toss to how old they are getting in chase of a dream/career. Women who dont care how their society wallahs keep saying, "Pata nahin kab shaadi karegi". I am not gonna support women who get married early and then complain how the marriage ensured their lives took a nosedive. Men dont do that and so shouldnt women either. In the end the fault doesnt lie with MIL(or PIL or BIL) but with the couple. If the hubby and wifey have their relationship sound nothing else shall matter. xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC1981 Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 CC, you should cut down on this desi mentality thingy. The role of women does not vary as much in an Indian family as it does in say Chinese or Japanese or whatever. Nor does it vary in Middle East. What i said or categorized as desi mentality *IS* most definitely prevalent back in 'zee motherland'. I often bring in the 'desi mentality' comment because i obviously care for the state of our culture back home more than most places on this planet. Besides, re: Chinese, you couldn't be more wrong. One of the biggest accomplishments of communism in China has been remarkable progress in women's status in society. Indeed, one of the biggest positives (in theory and in practice) about communism is its equality of the sexes. This has been covered a lot in academia as well as evident amongst Chinese immigrants to the new world- they are light years ahead in equality issues than almost all non-western nations and ahead of even some western cultures in equality. I am not going to buy half of this and half of that atitude. If women in India are chasing the Western values then lets start the age of intercourse at 16 as well. There is no way an Indian guy should be expected to be "Indian" when it comes to chastity and "Western" when it comes to marital relationship. Why should he? Not disputing this much, though there is sensibility in towing the middle path in many of life's persuits. There are some drawbacks to the western values of sexuality too, where sex is perhaps trivialized a bit too much for my liking (there are many here to whom sex is equivalent to scratching an itch). But no,i don't have any fundamental problems with 15-16 year olds having sex, as long as it isnt with a full blown adult ( say late 20s+) which puts the juvie at risk of mental manipulation. Even today a guy has to pay at the date. Why? Even today male chivalry(read opening door, moving chairs etc) are considered "gentlemanly". Why? Even today 10 women killed makes a bigger news than 25 men killed. Why?? I actually don't see this to be very prevalent at all in my generation (mid 20s) or younger crowd in the west. Infact, it is far more prevalent to split the bill than the guy picking up the tab on dates and this has by far been my experience as well as that of most of my friends here. The prevalent mentality amongst my generation is that if the guy is paying for the whole date, he is expecting the woman to get sexually inclined that night (if not full monty, then atleast some necking and sucking face.) Ofcourse, the mentality you highlight is prevalent in most conservative (read: Christian) western households. As per women dying making more headlines- that I am afraid, is a species-related psychology. One of the things i remember reading a while ago regarding society's aversion towards having women in the military is this : It has been proven over and over again, in case studies of previous battles, testimonials of those involved as well as mass behaviour-psychology experiments, that it is far more traumatic for men to see women's bodyparts flying around than any other scenario(yes, even children) or vice-versa. Perhaps it has something to do with our evolution for the most part making men expendable and the warmongerers/defenders etc. but that is something i see as innately psychological to our species than any artificial societerial imposition. Equality has to be equal in all respect. I am going to support women who truly beleive in it. Women who give a toss to how old they are getting in chase of a dream/career. Women who dont care how their society wallahs keep saying, "Pata nahin kab shaadi karegi". I am not gonna support women who get married early and then complain how the marriage ensured their lives took a nosedive. Men dont do that and so shouldnt women either. Agreed 100% here. With me, it is simply a question of their attraction value. I don't think many women realize that equality comes from respect and guys tend to lose respect for the spineless woman,nomatter how intelligent,beautiful or well-educated. A woman who takes the bus coz she doesn't have a car gets more respect, is more attractive and a far bigger turn-on than a woman who will bat her pretty lil eyelashes and expect our hormones to kick into gear and become their designated driver for zero benifits of any kind in return(and i am talking here about carpooling/sharing gas, etc, nothing hanky-panky). Most guys would love to shag any woman they find pretty but if the woman is prone to taking advantage of her sexuality by getting all kinds of free favours for 'flirting/batting eyelashes' etc. then she doesn't get much respect outside the bedroom and that is the kind of scenario where the guy will tell the woman what to do, to follow his lead etc. And while i can say only about my perceptions here, i also know that a significant % of guys feel the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
living Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 But no' date='i don't have any fundamental problems with 15-16 year olds having sex, as long as it isnt with a full blown adult ( say late 20s+) which puts the juvie at risk of mental manipulation.[/quote'] wow, 15-16 year olds? Thats way too young man. 17-18 seems fine. Damn 15? I was in like grade 9-10 in high school... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC1981 Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 wow, 15-16 year olds? Thats way too young man. 17-18 seems fine. Damn 15? I was in like grade 9-10 in high school... Well i did my grade 8-10 in India too and it wasn't uncommon for people my age to have boyfriends/girlfriends and having experience with various levels of sexuality....this is mid 90s too, so i am sure things are a bit more liberal nowadays. Besides, i don't think there is any fundamental problems with 15-16 year olds shagging other 15-16-17 year olds...hell, i don't see it as a problem even if a 15 yr old is going out with a 20 yr old..it starts getting icky for me personally when its a 10+ year age difference in that demographic zone. But otherwise, its fine by me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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