NZ AT 11 vs SA AT 11 (Tests)

[kohli]

3 hours ago, zen said:

I would recommend acquainting yourself with facts - for e.g. Grahame Pollock and George Headley have 2-3k runs but are also greats. 
 

Number of runs are not everything. Bradman, Richards, Gavaskar, Chappell, etc., have less runs than Dravid but .... 
 

 

 

Bradman,g pollock & headley have less run but high avg.viv, greg & sunny avg are over 50 and more than 7000 run. Crowe neither have high avg nor more run.

[zen]

2 minutes ago, kohli said:

Bradman,g pollock & headley have less run but high avg.viv, greg & sunny avg are over 50 and more than 7000 run. Crowe neither have high avg nor more run.

The article that I posted on Crowe explains it (poor start and end to his career. But understandable as NZ would not have alternatives). If Dravid is your favorite, I understand. Otherwise there is no point in getting worked up

[kohli]

5 minutes ago, zen said:

The article that I posted on Crowe explains it (poor start and end to his career. But understandable as NZ would not have alternatives). If Dravid is your favorite, I understand. Otherwise there is no point in getting worked up

Every player face this problem ( poor strat and end career). I already post his away avg. he was medicore in india, sa , wi & Sri Lanka. He is same level of vvs & azhar .

[zen]

24 minutes ago, kohli said:

Every player face this problem ( poor strat and end career). I already post his away avg. he was medicore in india, sa , wi & Sri Lanka. He is same level of vvs & azhar .

 Will give it a shot again for the last time on Crowe vs Dravid: 

• Crowe played against an ATG WI team. And was known for performances vs it. Has a 180 odd in WI iirc 
• Ind and SL were not great test teams in the 80s (WI, NZ for likes of Hadlee-Crowe, and Pak were)
• Crowe mostly played SA at the end of his career when he was past his best. And SA was blowing other teams away. See Ind's performances in SA in 90s (it was even bowled out of 100 and 66 iirc) 

 

At his best, Crowe averaged 58-59 over a 6-7 years period. I do not think Dravid has ever been the best in the world for such a long period. Dravid has been overshadowed by other batsmen even in his team  

 

But if you want to pick Dravid, I have no issues. I have tried to select 5 Kiwis and 5 Indian players for equal representation, with the 11 spot decided b/w Bumrah and Boult (pick whom you like). But even w/o the equal representation, I would pick Crowe

 

 

PS performance vs WI and Pak. As mentioned, WI, NZ (for likes of Hadlee-Crowe) and Pak were the top test teams in the 80s 

 

View overall figures [change view] Opposition team Pakistan  or West Indies  Start of match date between 1 Jan 1984 and 1 Jan 1990  Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 1000  Ordered by batting average (descending) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 3 of 3   First Previous Next  Last  Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave 100 50 0   MD Crowe (NZ) 1984-1989 15 27 2 1273 188 50.92 4 6 1 AR Border (AUS) 1984-1989 19 35 6 1319 113* 45.48 2 9 1 DI Gower (ENG) 1984-1988 22 41 3 1437 173* 37.81 2 9 0

Edited February 21, 2020 by zen

[kohli]

14 minutes ago, zen said:

 Will give it a shot again for the last time on Crowe vs Dravid: 

• Crowe played against an ATG WI team. And was known for performances vs it. Has a 180 odd in WI iirc 
• Ind and SL were not even great test teams in the 80s. I do not even know why you would care even if he performed
• Crowe mostly played SA at the end of his career when he was past his best. And SA was blowing other teams away. See Ind's performances in SA in 90s (it was even bowled out of 100 and 66 iirc) 

 

At his best, Crowe averaged 58-59 over a 6-7 years period. I do not think Dravid has ever been the best in the world for such a long period. Dravid has been overshadowed by other batsmen even in his team  

 

But if you want to pick Dravid, I have no issues. I have tried to select 5 Kiwis and 5 Indian players for equal representation, with the 11 spot decided b/w Bumrah and Boult (pick whom you like). But even w/o the equal representation, I would pick Crowe

After 100 test dravid avg was almost 59. This is more than entire crowe career.

[zen]

14 minutes ago, kohli said:

After 100 test dravid avg was almost 59. This is more than entire crowe career.

So? Everyone knows cricket was played less earlier. For e.g. Sobers only played 90 odd tests in 20 years (that too when other formats were not played. ODIs were introduced in 70s. Sobers only played 1 ODI iirc) 

Edited February 21, 2020 by zen

[Ankit_sharma03]

@zen- u shud create a thread of ATG India vs NZ in NZ conditions since the series is on

[zen]

21 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

@zen- u shud create a thread of ATG India vs NZ in NZ conditions since the series is on

Hadlee-Bond in full flow

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

2 minutes ago, zen said:

Hadlee-Bond in full flow

 

well in 2002 series even there batsman were in trouble but we only had Zak with an ATG XI it wont be easy for NZ XI 

[zen]

4 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

well in 2002 series even there batsman were in trouble but we only had Zak with an ATG XI it wont be easy for NZ XI 

Crowe-Williamson-Jones-Turner-Baz-etc batting together  

 

In the 80s, with only a few players like Hadlee-Crowe, NZ competed well vs WI, widely considered as the best AT side. In fact was among the top 3 teams in 80s based on performances of a few players!

Edited February 21, 2020 by zen

[Ankit_sharma03]

2 minutes ago, zen said:

Crowe-Williamson-Jones-Turner-Baz-etc batting together  

Baz is hit n miss ......when he fires he ll take the game from any bowling attack 

Well even we ll have a good batting lineup....it wont be as bad as ur thinking . Surely they have the X factor with bond 

[zen]

2 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Baz is hit n miss ......when he fires he ll take the game from any bowling attack 

Well even we ll have a good batting lineup....it wont be as bad as ur thinking . Surely they have the X factor with bond 

Hadlee (one of the biggest match winner in tests) + Bond (one of the best SRs in the history of the game) = our bowling attack .... then they have likes of Boult, etc in the 11 

Edited February 21, 2020 by zen

[zen]

To add, 

 

WI of 80s (Not AT WI 11) > Ind and Pak AT11

 

Regular NZ w/ Hadlee-Crowe competed w/ WI of 80s

 

AT NZ 11 will be much stronger

[Ankit_sharma03]

2 minutes ago, zen said:

Hadlee (one of the biggest match winner in tests) + Bond (one of the best SRs in the history of the game) = our bowling attack .... then they have likes of Boult, etc in the 11 

Well Ill make it fun....i have a very diff lineup

 

 

ATG in NZ condition Ind XI vs NZ XI 

 

NZ ATG XI

1. Fleming
2. Whoever i dont knw
3. williamson
4. crowe
5. taylor
6. BAZ
7. Chris Cairns (Coz when u play a 4 man seam attack a 5th bowler is must and he liked India as opposition+ damn good 5th bowler)
8. hadlee
9. bond
10. boult
11. Wagner

4 men + cairns a relentless seam attack 

 

Ind ATG XI

1. Gavaskar 
2. Shastri 
3. Dravid
4. Sachin
5. Kohli 
6. Rahane 
7. dhoni
8. kapil dev
9. Zak/Shami (Zak has done well in NZ and shami still has to)
10. Ishant
11. Bumrah

 

Why shastri over sehwag- Sehwag had a very poor record in NZ and he never was comfertable against Bond . I needed someone gritty like shastri just to see of that new ball and give me bowling as well since i wanna play 4 men seam attack .

Another idea is to play irfan ahead of rahane and include sehwag for shastri . Irfan had a very good technique for these conditions

 

[zen]

5 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Well Ill make it fun....i have a very diff lineup

Why shastri over sehwag- Sehwag had a very poor record in NZ and he never was comfertable against Bond . I needed someone gritty like shastri just to see of that new ball and give me bowling as well since i wanna play 4 men seam attack .

Another idea is to play irfan ahead of rahane and include sehwag for shastri . Irfan had a very good technique for these conditions

 

That is hardly an AT11 .... Purpose of AT11 is to pick best 11 players and see which team does well in sporting condition (to take other factors out of equation) .... If we are picking for conditions, on turners NZ can play a combination from Vettori, Santer, Sodhi, Deepak Patel, A Patel, Harris, etc., many of these guys are hardly NZ's best cricketers (and thus defeats the purpose of such exercise) 

[Ankit_sharma03]

48 minutes ago, zen said:

That is hardly an AT11 .... Purpose of AT11 is to pick best 11 players and see which team does well in sporting condition (to take other factors out of equation) .... If we are picking for conditions, on turners NZ can play a combination from Vettori, Santer, Sodhi, Deepak Patel, A Patel, Harris, etc., many of these guys are hardly NZ's best cricketers (and thus defeats the purpose of such exercise) 

not really....sodhi n santner were quite in effective in India neither vettori wrecked some havoc . M picking players on effectiveness on certain condition

When u have a range of so many great player be smart n choose acc to condition or else whats the point of mentioning conditions 

[zen]

1 minute ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

not really....sodhi n santner were quite in effective in India neither vettori wrecked some havoc . M picking players on effectiveness on certain condition

When u have a range of so many great player be smart n choose acc to condition or else whats the point of mentioning conditions 

Goal is to have best players from two countries battling it out. In Sporting conditions all good players can do well .... and this is hypothetical situation as well as these players are not going to play together in reality 

 

I don’t prefer 11s for rank turners, green tops, flat wkts, etc., as it dilutes the discussion imo when the goal is to pick the best 11 .... who is going to discuss a 11 with Shastri, Pathan, Sodhi, Santer, etc. in it  

[Ankit_sharma03]

4 minutes ago, zen said:

Goal is to have best players from two countries battling it out. In Sporting conditions all good players can do well .... and this is hypothetical situation as well as these players are not going to play together in reality 

 

I don’t prefer 11s for rank turners, green tops, flat wkts, etc., as it dilutes the discussion imo when the goal is to pick the best 11 .... who is going to discuss a 11 with Shastri, Pathan, Sodhi, Santer, etc. in it  

i find that boring as it involves no strategy.....i find it more fun if XI are picked strategically acc to condition n opposition and it cud lead more n more thread.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Ankit_sharma03

[zen]

2 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

i find that boring as it involves no strategy.....i find it more fun if XI are picked strategically acc to condition n opposition and it cud lead more n more thread.

For that you have current games .... AT11 is about AT players  .... But go ahead with it, I ll read your posts! 

[gazza]

5 minutes ago, zen said:

For that you have current games .... AT11 is about AT players  .... But go ahead with it, I ll read your posts! 

No reason why all time team scenarios can’t involve conditions. The realty is the best AT xi for a rank turner will be different to a flat track or a greentop. 

 

Unless you are going for the ultimate AT team which will be the best across all conditions but then wouldn’t it be beaten by the specialist AT team for the conditions they are playing in in that match?

 

dont even know why I’m saying this anyway as I go more down your thought train which is an all conditions AT team focusing on players rather than conditions, but adding various stipulations along the way can make the discussion a bit more interesting when it’s hitting a bit of a plateau.

Edited February 21, 2020 by gazza