Jay Posted February 2, 2022 Posted February 2, 2022 7 hours ago, Adamant said: That's not how it's done. Sehwag was tailendersque in SEN, On the other hand Graeme Smith was good even in those places where Sehwag Dominated. Smith averages 45 in Lanka 45 in Pakistan 36 in India 40 in Aus facing proper attacks unlike Sehwag who faced Brad Williams. Also you are wrong about west Indies part, if we go by averages, Smith averages 73 in WI. Sehwag was pathetic in SEN Averaging 25 20 27 respectively. You just can't put Sehwag ahead based on all conditions stats, Smith is a proper all conditions bat, Sehwag wasn't but still he was a great match winner. That's true. So Smith is greater than Sehwag overall. Would still take shewu in Asia and Australia over Smith. Smith in every other place which includes sen
Trichromatic Posted February 3, 2022 Posted February 3, 2022 6 hours ago, zen said: This is a pick one thread. You can pick any player b/w the two selected based on any cricketing reasoning. On Sehwag versus Ashwin if they played for Aus, let me explain to you: a) Aus comes to Ind. b) Its batsman play Indian spinners. c) Indian spinners do not bowl to Indian batsman. Now if Sehwag played for Aus: a) Sehwag plays against Indian spinners in Ind Now if Ashwin played for Aus: a) Ashwin bowls to Indian batsmen (not Aus batsmen) in Ind As for Ashwin's record, we know how rank turners have helped Indian spinners including Jadeja and Axar, bowling to less fancied against spin batsman. As for Sehwag, he has batted well in spin friendly conditions against much better spin bowlers like Murali (Spin friendly conditions give advantage to spinners, not batsman) Everyone knows 2003-2013 was flattest batting era resulting in lot of batsmen averaging 50+. It seems that since you have much to talk about actual performances, you are going with lot of ifs, buts and imaginary scenario. Ashwin has taken wickets on flat pitches, rank turners, Australian conditions, English conditions. Everyone knows that Indian this team has weaker batting line up, spinners do bulk of the work at home meaning Ashwin and Jaddu are primary reason for unparalleled home dominance. Most consecutive Test series wins at home: Team Consecutive series wins From To India 14* Feb-13 - Australia 10 Nov-94 Nov-00 Australia 10 Jul-04 Nov-08 West Indies 8 Mar-76 Feb-86 England 7 May-09 May-12 South Africa 7 Mar-98 Nov-01 That's the impact of rare match winner who can produce record 40% better than greatest team in history and it's not even over yet. India has won 32 out of 40 tests at home since 2013. Staggering record. Overall figures Team Players Span Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wktshttp://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/blackArrowDown.gif BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10 India 42 2013-2021 40 388 6284.5 1445 16887 749 7/48 13/140 22.54 2.68 50.3 40 9 Indian bowlers have taken 749 wickets since then and Ashwin has taken 246 of those. That's 32% of all wickets. Next highest wicket taker is Jadeja with 159 wickets. 56% higher wickets than 2nd highest wicket taker. India has taken 40 5-fer and Ashwin has 19 of them. India has taken 9 10-fer and Ashwin has 5 of them. Ashwin is the rare match winner you're looking for in Asian conditions.
Trichromatic Posted February 3, 2022 Posted February 3, 2022 4 hours ago, zen said: I watched the following openers: Gavaskar, Srikant, Shastri, Greenidge, Haynes, Boon, Marsh, Gooch, and so on. Sehwag changed opening batting in tests. A strike rate of 80+ while averaging over 50 as an opener is not a joke. It didn't change. People thought era flat highways will continue where openers will go bang bang. Once balance between ball and bat was brought back batsmen have started realising value of grinding it out again. No one wants to average 20s overseas just to look like attacking batsman. Old fashioned hard fought test cricket is still considered gold. Those who want to watch attacking batting are going for IPL.
Trichromatic Posted February 3, 2022 Posted February 3, 2022 6 hours ago, zen said: Other reason for picking Sehwag is that he can dominate in favorable conditions whether in Asia, Australia or WI (and even on good batting surfaces elsewhere). In ODIs in NZ on green pitches where others failed, he hit 2 100s, so again he can do well if he focuses more. You can get Smith like openers. Note that Laxman did not open, which is a tough job in SENA. If Sehwag batted in the lower middle order, he could have done well too in SENA (though as 3 100s as an opener, and 1 in the lower middle order), and KL has played for a different team, against a different team, and on different pitches. Australia and WI had flat highways pitches with poor bowling attacks in series where Sehwag played. Scores of 500-600 were common for all teams. Sehwag was lucky to have escaped WI 2011 series on those type of pitches.
Trichromatic Posted February 3, 2022 Posted February 3, 2022 5 hours ago, zen said: What is the fixation with SEN? There are many batsman who can be picked in a team that can do well in SEN. Even Sehwag could if he gets more opportunities. Why miss out on a unique player? A team needs players to dominate in Asia as well. SA itself would love to have a Sehwag in its line up to help it perform relatively much better in Asia (or anywhere when he gets going) as it has batsmen who can do relatively well in other conditions. Exactly. And India always had players who won matches in India. It changed only after when Ashwin reached his prime. It didn't change anything with Sehwag's attacking batting.
zen Posted February 3, 2022 Author Posted February 3, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Trichromatic said: Everyone knows 2003-2013 was flattest batting era resulting in lot of batsmen averaging 50+. The point is about doing well opening the inning with a mind blowing SR, overshadowing much more experienced players 1 hour ago, Trichromatic said: Ashwin has taken wickets on flat pitches, rank turners, Australian conditions, English conditions. Every bowler who bowls picks up wkts including Sundar (IIRC, only key Ind bowler who played a full series but did not pick up wkt is Kapil versus Aus in 1986) Primary team India Opposition team Australia or England or New Zealand or South Africa Home or away away (home of opposition) Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2010 Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 20 Ordered by bowling average (ascending) Overall figures Player Span Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10 SN Thakur 2021-2022 6 12 164.5 26 538 26 7/61 8/108 20.69 3.26 38.0 1 0 JJ Bumrah 2018-2022 22 43 837.5 202 2242 96 6/33 9/86 23.35 2.67 52.3 5 0 B Kumar 2014-2018 8 13 281.5 72 877 30 6/82 6/103 29.23 3.11 56.3 2 0 Mohammed Shami 2013-2022 31 57 1055.1 179 3635 113 6/56 8/107 32.16 3.44 56.0 4 0 Mohammed Siraj 2020-2022 9 17 310.1 64 967 30 5/73 8/126 32.23 3.11 62.0 1 0 Z Khan 2010-2014 11 18 435.5 74 1443 43 5/170 7/130 33.55 3.31 60.8 1 0 I Sharma 2010-2021 34 59 1230.0 218 4032 113 7/74 9/162 35.68 3.27 65.3 5 0 RA Jadeja 2013-2021 17 29 648.5 123 1712 47 6/138 7/258 36.42 2.63 82.8 1 0 UT Yadav 2011-2022 14 26 431.3 55 1774 44 5/93 7/176 40.31 4.11 58.8 1 0 R Ashwin 2011-2022 23 40 947.3 155 2709 66 4/55 7/121 41.04 2.85 86.1 0 0 1 hour ago, Trichromatic said: Everyone knows that Indian this team has weaker batting line up, spinners do bulk of the work at home meaning Ashwin and Jaddu are primary reason for unparalleled home dominance. With pitches tailored for them 1 hour ago, Trichromatic said: Ashwin is the rare match winner you're looking for in Asian conditions. So are Axar and Jadeja 1 hour ago, Trichromatic said: It didn't change. People thought era flat highways will continue where openers will go bang bang. Once balance between ball and bat was brought back batsmen have started realising value of grinding it out again. No one wants to average 20s overseas just to look like attacking batsman. Old fashioned hard fought test cricket is still considered gold. Those who want to watch attacking batting are going for IPL. Irrelevant as it is difficult to bat in that fashion ... And we have guys today who attempt to play in such a fashion including Warner, Shaw, Agarwal, ... 1 hour ago, Trichromatic said: Australia and WI had flat highways pitches with poor bowling attacks in series where Sehwag played. Scores of 500-600 were common for all teams. Sehwag was lucky to have escaped WI 2011 series on those type of pitches. And Sehwag did well when others failed like at Melbourne & Adelaide Edited February 3, 2022 by zen
zen Posted February 3, 2022 Author Posted February 3, 2022 (edited) 46 minutes ago, Trichromatic said: That's the impact of rare match winner who can produce record 40% better than greatest team in history and it's not even over yet. Tailored Pitches, team composition, opposition, ... PS the "Langer" example ... Edited February 3, 2022 by zen
Trichromatic Posted February 3, 2022 Posted February 3, 2022 47 minutes ago, zen said: Tailored Pitches, team composition, opposition, ... PS the "Langer" example ... Tailored pitches were available in 2003-2013. Team composition - weaker batting line up. Langer is not an example. He wasn't even top 5 batsmen of Australian team. Had strongest bowling line up in Aus history. On the other hand, Ashwin had relatively weaker batting. Top performer with ball, takes 56% higher wickets than next bowler and yet overall result is 5 times better W/L ratio. If it's not rare then can you show me any team with W/L ratio of 15? 14 unbeaten home series and counting.
zen Posted February 3, 2022 Author Posted February 3, 2022 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Trichromatic said: Tailored pitches were available in 2003-2013. Team composition - weaker batting line up. Langer is not an example. He wasn't even top 5 batsmen of Australian team. Had strongest bowling line up in Aus history. On the other hand, Ashwin had relatively weaker batting. Top performer with ball, takes 56% higher wickets than next bowler and yet overall result is 5 times better W/L ratio. If it's not rare then can you show me any team with W/L ratio of 15? 14 unbeaten home series and counting. Different opposition, # of matches played on rank turners (being “available” means little as your claim about 2003-13 being the best batting period should suggest to you), and so on Edited February 3, 2022 by zen
Trichromatic Posted February 3, 2022 Posted February 3, 2022 58 minutes ago, zen said: The point is about doing well opening the inning with a mind blowing SR, overshadowing much more experienced players Every bowler who bowls picks up wkts including Sundar Primary team India Opposition team Australia or England or New Zealand or South Africa Home or away away (home of opposition) Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2010 Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 20 Ordered by bowling average (ascending) Overall figures Player Span Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10 SN Thakur 2021-2022 6 12 164.5 26 538 26 7/61 8/108 20.69 3.26 38.0 1 0 JJ Bumrah 2018-2022 22 43 837.5 202 2242 96 6/33 9/86 23.35 2.67 52.3 5 0 B Kumar 2014-2018 8 13 281.5 72 877 30 6/82 6/103 29.23 3.11 56.3 2 0 Mohammed Shami 2013-2022 31 57 1055.1 179 3635 113 6/56 8/107 32.16 3.44 56.0 4 0 Mohammed Siraj 2020-2022 9 17 310.1 64 967 30 5/73 8/126 32.23 3.11 62.0 1 0 Z Khan 2010-2014 11 18 435.5 74 1443 43 5/170 7/130 33.55 3.31 60.8 1 0 I Sharma 2010-2021 34 59 1230.0 218 4032 113 7/74 9/162 35.68 3.27 65.3 5 0 RA Jadeja 2013-2021 17 29 648.5 123 1712 47 6/138 7/258 36.42 2.63 82.8 1 0 UT Yadav 2011-2022 14 26 431.3 55 1774 44 5/93 7/176 40.31 4.11 58.8 1 0 R Ashwin 2011-2022 23 40 947.3 155 2709 66 4/55 7/121 41.04 2.85 86.1 0 0 With pitches tailored for them So are Axar and Jadeja Irrelevant as it is difficult to bat in that fashion ... And we have guys today who attempt to play in such a fashion including Warner, Shaw, Agarwal, ... And Sehwag did well when others failed like at Melbourne & Adelaide Ashwin was the 2nd highest wicket taker in Australia and won the series with his all round performances in 2020 How many spinners have managed to do that in Aus? Hallmark of true rare match winner. Match winner stepped up and saved a match in Aus at Sydney even with bat. Pitches were super flat even in 2000s. Tailor made for batsman to score on highways all over the world. Yet Sehwag averages 20s in many countries. India played lot of matches on flat pitches even India unlike 2000s where there were very few turners to play on. If anything pitches were more tilted in favor of batsmen in 2000s than it is tilted in favor of spinners post Sehwag. Agarwal doesn't try to bat in that fashion in test cricket. Replace Sehwag with any other batsman, you won't lose much in India. On the other hand Ashwin has given what no other team has been able to achieve in history of test cricket. Ashwin is the most valuable player in Asian conditions, rare match winner by some distance.
zen Posted February 3, 2022 Author Posted February 3, 2022 8 minutes ago, Trichromatic said: Ashwin was the 2nd highest wicket taker in Australia and won the series with his all round performances in 2020 How many spinners have managed to do that in Aus? Hallmark of true rare match winner. Match winner stepped up and saved a match in Aus at Sydney even with bat. Pitches were super flat even in 2000s. Tailor made for batsman to score on highways all over the world. Yet Sehwag averages 20s in many countries. India played lot of matches on flat pitches even India unlike 2000s where there were very few turners to play on. If anything pitches were more tilted in favor of batsmen in 2000s than it is tilted in favor of spinners post Sehwag. Agarwal doesn't try to bat in that fashion in test cricket. Replace Sehwag with any other batsman, you won't lose much in India. On the other hand Ashwin has given what no other team has been able to achieve in history of test cricket. Ashwin is the most valuable player in Asian conditions, rare match winner by some distance. But Sundar did well in Aus too on his debut so your theory on Ashwin, who leeches on rank turners, is invalidated … Are we say Sundar is better than xyz based on 1 test Thank you!
Trichromatic Posted February 3, 2022 Posted February 3, 2022 5 minutes ago, zen said: Different opposition, # of matches played on rank turners (being “available” means little as your claim about 2003-13 being the best batting period should suggest to you), and so on # of matches played on flat roads in 2000s were much higher than # of matches played on turners post 2013. Evidence: India averages 40+ in 12 out of 17 series during Ashwin's career at home. Overall figures Teams Mat Won Lost Tied Draw W/L Avehttp://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/blackArrowDown.gif RPO Inns HS LS Bangladesh in India Test Match, 2016/17 1 1 1 0 0 0 - 84.60 4.33 2 687 - http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif Freedom Trophy (South Africa in India), 2019/20 1 3 3 0 0 0 - 76.92 4.03 4 601 - http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif West Indies in India Test Series, 2018/19 1 2 2 0 0 0 - 57.42 4.00 3 649 367 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif Bangladesh in India Test Series, 2019/20 1 2 2 0 0 0 - 56.00 4.12 2 493 - http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif Sri Lanka in India Test Series, 2017/18 1 3 1 0 0 2 - 53.22 3.79 5 610 172 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif England in India Test Series, 2016/17 1 5 4 0 0 1 - 49.69 3.43 8 759 204 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif New Zealand in India Test Series, 2016/17 1 3 3 0 0 0 - 47.60 3.38 6 557 263 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif West Indies in India Test Series, 2013/14 1 2 2 0 0 0 - 47.40 3.98 2 495 453 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif Afghanistan in India Test Match, 2018 1 1 1 0 0 0 - 47.40 4.52 1 474 474 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif West Indies in India Test Series, 2011/12 1 3 2 0 0 1 - 44.87 3.79 5 631 209 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif Border-Gavaskar Trophy (Australia in India), 2012/13 1 4 4 0 0 0 - 43.80 3.72 7 572 272 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif New Zealand in India Test Series, 2012 1 2 2 0 0 0 - 42.12 3.57 3 438 353 2 more series with avg > 33. Surprise, surprise, India lost 0 matches in batting friendly conditions. 2003-2013 was flattest era to bat in. Evidence to back that up. Overall figures Decadehttp://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/blackArrowDown.gif Teams Mat Won Lost Tied Draw W/L Ave RPO Inns HS LS 2020s 11 72 61 61 0 11 1.000 29.39 3.02 269 659 36 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif 2010s 12 433 349 349 0 84 1.000 32.65 3.22 1609 759 38 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif 2000s 11 464 350 350 0 114 1.000 34.17 3.20 1686 765 47 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif 1990s 9 347 223 223 0 124 1.000 31.64 2.86 1244 952 46 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif 1980s 7 266 143 143 1 122 1.000 32.64 2.86 935 708 53 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif 1970s 7 198 114 114 0 84 1.000 32.80 2.69 729 687 42 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif 1960s 7 186 97 97 1 88 1.000 32.27 2.49 690 656 78 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif 1950s 7 164 113 113 0 51 1.000 28.60 2.30 591 790 26 Batting average of all teams all over world during Sehwag's career: 35. W/L ratio during Sehwag's career - 3.1 W/L ratio during post Sehwag's career - 15
Trichromatic Posted February 3, 2022 Posted February 3, 2022 3 minutes ago, zen said: But Sundar did well in Aus too on his debut so your theory on Ashwin, who leeches on rank turners, is invalidated … Are we say Sundar is better than xyz based on 1 test Thank you! Didn't know Sundar was 2nd highest wicket taker in Aus 2020 series. Thanks for the info. Ashwin wins majority of matches at home on flat pitches, wins on rank turners. Highest wicket taker, 50% 5-fer and 10-fers and responsible for W/L of 15. He leeches. Sehwag feasted on flat pitches, even failed on flat pitches overseas. Not much difference in results at home. He is rare match winner. Great logic.
Trichromatic Posted February 3, 2022 Posted February 3, 2022 Ashwin 6/81 to dismiss NZ on pitch where India had just scored 557. The Board of Control for Cricket in India (bcci.tv) Ashwin 7-59 v NZ at home on pitch where India had scored 557 and 216/3. The Board of Control for Cricket in India (bcci.tv) These type of matches would end up in draw in 2000s because batsmen from both sides would score in bulk.
Trichromatic Posted February 3, 2022 Posted February 3, 2022 Ashwin 7-103 on day 1 pitch v Aus. India scored 572 on same pitch. Tailor made rank turner indeed. India wrap up 8 wicket win, take 1-0 lead: 1st Test, Day 5 (Chennai) :: The largest library of cricket videos (cricketcrowd.com) Ashwin 5-95 in 2nd inning.
Trichromatic Posted February 3, 2022 Posted February 3, 2022 Ashwin 7-145 v SA on super flat pitch where India scored 502/7 and 323/4. Disney+ Hotstar - Watch TV Shows, Movies, Live Cricket Matches & News Online
Trichromatic Posted February 3, 2022 Posted February 3, 2022 Ashwin 6-31 and 6-54 v NZ on pitch where India scored 438. NZ lost by an inning. Full Scorecard of India vs New Zealand 1st Test 2012 - Score Report | ESPNcricinfo.com
Trichromatic Posted February 3, 2022 Posted February 3, 2022 Ashwin 12-167 v Eng on pitches where India scored 600. Full Scorecard of England vs India 4th Test 2016/17 - Score Report | ESPNcricinfo.com
Trichromatic Posted February 3, 2022 Posted February 3, 2022 Ashwin 10-224 in a match where India scored 377/5 in 2nd inning! Full Scorecard of India vs New Zealand 1st Test 2016/17 - Score Report | ESPNcricinfo.com
Trichromatic Posted February 3, 2022 Posted February 3, 2022 There are many more examples of Ashwin performing on flat pitches. These performances are reason why India has such a remarkable record in Asia.
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