Lone Wolf Posted December 19, 2025 Posted December 19, 2025 57 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said: Fear of CAATSA and the greed of beaurocrats is probably not allowing us to go ahead. Else, we should have gone with Su57, Su75 and should have partnered with Mig 41 as well. Keep the workforce engaged instead of making them ideal. You literally gotta thank Manohar Parrikar for seeing us through for S400. Folks don't have foresight like him anymore. Establishment is sh*t sacred of Uncle SAM, one cannot honestly blame them much too as we have literally depend a lot on them. There are few red lines that no one cares to cross. ravishingravi 1
singhvivek141 Posted December 19, 2025 Posted December 19, 2025 2 hours ago, G_B_ said: See if you get a sixth arihant class submarine then you know our ssbn has been delayed. That is the critical piece or supply line india wants to keep hot. Arihant class was meant to be a bridge to ssbn. It is noisy and cannot operate on its own. I.e it needs surface bases ships to provide is a santuary to excute a launch. It will operate 500km from the indian coast. I think you meant SSN....coz Arihant class is already SSBN. Arihant and Arighaat...as you mentioned are less capable and carry less no. of K4 missiles. Aridhaman in comparison has double the number of K4 and K15 missiles, hence its more lethal...even its acoustic signature is way better than Arihant (Arighaat too has better acoustics). Basically we used Arihant as Proof of Concept for 83 MW Nuclear Reactor and improved it further with Arighaat and Aridhaman. Once BARC will hand us over 190 MW nuclear reactor...that will help us in making S5 SSBNs (Arihant and family are S4)...with humongous displacement and power (similar to Virginia Class of US or Akula class of Russia). This 190 MW reactor will also function as the heart of SSN under project P77. G_B_ 1
G_B_ Posted December 19, 2025 Posted December 19, 2025 2 hours ago, Lone Wolf said: Lol Communist militaries were the standard post WW2 when it came to mass production. Soviets were literally super efficient in small arms, their tanks dominated US made tanks for decades, armoured vehicles, BMPs, integrated ATGMS, not to mention artillery and SPG's were world beaters. Western equipment later on surged ahead coz of better electronics and digitally better fire control systems. The copium you are on about Chinese MIC has already been busted by Western analysts themselves. Iteration after iteration plus corporate espionage has got China close to the top of the stack. That's manufacturing lesson 101. Which western analysts? Do post links. The fact remains the j20 was missing in action in the skirmish. Nobody can dispute this. I find this to be very odd. Engines remain the chinese achillies heel for now. Be it subs or otherwise.
singhvivek141 Posted December 20, 2025 Posted December 20, 2025 8 hours ago, Lone Wolf said: You literally gotta thank Manohar Parrikar for seeing us through for S400. Folks don't have foresight like him anymore. Establishment is sh*t sacred of Uncle SAM, one cannot honestly blame them much too as we have literally depend a lot on them. There are few red lines that no one cares to cross. Won't use the word scared, but rather US holds the leverage. China can bring down US to its knees courtesy of its manufacturing power, India isnt at that level yet. Maybe 5-7 years down the line we will become a major disrupter, but not now. India dont have oil reserves, Rare Earth extraction and purification have just begun. Engines and other core tech, we are heavily depend on US. Both Russia and China dont have such issues...China is a manufacturing hub and Russia is self dependent courtesy of its massive land mass with natural resources... India will play safe till we reach 10 trillion, PCI will hit close to 5k. We want to become self reliant and its a good thing. Just that these things take time and we are horribly behind the schedule. Buying will solve our immediate needs but hit us in long run.
singhvivek141 Posted December 20, 2025 Posted December 20, 2025 https://idrw.org/raghu-vamsi-unveils-rv-maya-300-indigenous-twin-turbojet-combat-uav-with-advanced-decoy-capabilities/ The pvt sector is much more capable that the some called PSUs, who are struggling to produce Catswarrior.
Lone Wolf Posted December 20, 2025 Posted December 20, 2025 2 hours ago, singhvivek141 said: Won't use the word scared, but rather US holds the leverage. China can bring down US to its knees courtesy of its manufacturing power, India isnt at that level yet. Maybe 5-7 years down the line we will become a major disrupter, but not now. India dont have oil reserves, Rare Earth extraction and purification have just begun. Engines and other core tech, we are heavily depend on US. Both Russia and China dont have such issues...China is a manufacturing hub and Russia is self dependent courtesy of its massive land mass with natural resources... India will play safe till we reach 10 trillion, PCI will hit close to 5k. We want to become self reliant and its a good thing. Just that these things take time and we are horribly behind the schedule. Buying will solve our immediate needs but hit us in long run. Look at the peanuts they are about spend on IN.. shameless to the core. That's roughly $4 bn per year.. Someone remind these guys we are not Kazakhstan or a landlocked Central Asian country.
singhvivek141 Posted December 20, 2025 Posted December 20, 2025 https://idrw.org/rudram-ii-missile-likely-to-get-production-clearance-in-2026-as-iaf-drdo-trials-progress/ Rudram 2 is ready... G_B_ 1
singhvivek141 Posted December 20, 2025 Posted December 20, 2025 17 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said: Look at the peanuts they are about spend on IN.. shameless to the core. That's roughly $4 bn per year.. Someone remind these guys we are not Kazakhstan or a landlocked Central Asian country. Navy receives only 15-20% of Total budget. Even the sanctioned strength is only 70-75k. 50% is shared to Army, 25-30% to Airforce. Sad but the reality is Navy will continue to be the third wheel of the command forces.
G_B_ Posted December 20, 2025 Posted December 20, 2025 3 hours ago, singhvivek141 said: https://idrw.org/rudram-ii-missile-likely-to-get-production-clearance-in-2026-as-iaf-drdo-trials-progress/ Rudram 2 is ready... This is very good news
Lone Wolf Posted December 20, 2025 Posted December 20, 2025 (edited) 3 hours ago, singhvivek141 said: https://idrw.org/rudram-ii-missile-likely-to-get-production-clearance-in-2026-as-iaf-drdo-trials-progress/ Rudram 2 is ready... From the article looks like Rudram 2 in service in 2027 with production beginning in late 2026. Would surely lessen the burden on Brahmos Rudram 3 will ensure Lahore's HQ9 can be targeted from Delhi itself. Edited December 20, 2025 by Lone Wolf
G_B_ Posted December 20, 2025 Posted December 20, 2025 3 hours ago, singhvivek141 said: Navy receives only 15-20% of Total budget. Even the sanctioned strength is only 70-75k. 50% is shared to Army, 25-30% to Airforce. Sad but the reality is Navy will continue to be the third wheel of the command forces. As mentioned before. Keep spending money on salaries and pensions. Re the 40 billion. This does not include the nuclear baslitic sub program which has its own funding under strategic nuclear command. Nor the salaries and pensions associated with the navy. Also given that IN has the mostly indegenous content (barring attack subs and rafales for aircraft carrier) , the purchase parity of that 40 billion is much higher for navy than say airforce that imports most. It will go much further than what people estimate. Likely to be 80 to 90 billion im purchase parity terms. singhvivek141 1
G_B_ Posted December 20, 2025 Posted December 20, 2025 Also i think thos 40 billion is effectively just a crude ball park calculation Depends on A) Indian gdp in usd terms. Defence budget is % of that and within that navy is %. Can be more or less depending on nominal indian gdp or increase in indian defence budget. Indian gdp was 1.6 trillion usd in 2015 and is 4.1 trillion usd in 2025. B) The degree of indegenous content. More you do at home the cheaper it will be. A drdo aip will be much cheaper than french aip. Tejas naval version will be much cheaper than rafale. C) Choice of foreign hardware. Russia had offered india 8 kiloclass subs upgraded to serve for 20 years. This is cheap.
singhvivek141 Posted December 20, 2025 Posted December 20, 2025 1 hour ago, Lone Wolf said: From the article looks like Rudram 2 in service in 2027 with production beginning in late 2026. Would surely lessen the burden on Brahmos Rudram 3 will ensure Lahore's HQ9 can be targeted from Delhi itself. Plus the Dhvani Hypersonic Glide Vehicle... That too is on trials for 2026, with its excellent maneuverability, its going to be another long range strike weapon.
singhvivek141 Posted December 20, 2025 Posted December 20, 2025 40 minutes ago, G_B_ said: Also i think thos 40 billion is effectively just a crude ball park calculation Depends on A) Indian gdp in usd terms. Defence budget is % of that and within that navy is %. Can be more or less depending on nominal indian gdp or increase in indian defence budget. Indian gdp was 1.6 trillion usd in 2015 and is 4.1 trillion usd in 2025. B) The degree of indegenous content. More you do at home the cheaper it will be. A drdo aip will be much cheaper than french aip. Tejas naval version will be much cheaper than rafale. C) Choice of foreign hardware. Russia had offered india 8 kiloclass subs upgraded to serve for 20 years. This is cheap. Usually cost goes up first...and then it comes down. Even the quality may be just serviceable at the first attempt...but constant improvement will optimize it. I take an example of Fold Phones by Samsung...their first fold was catastrophic. Now their 7th gen fold is in league of its own plus now theyre producing new iterations of tri fold with excellent hardware and software integration. Our SSBN program is another story. Plus as you mentioned, along with budget..even the export revenue too will play a key role. We have reached to exports of 23k Crores...with target of 50k CR by 2030...means more motivation and encouragement for our defense industries. G_B_ 1
G_B_ Posted December 20, 2025 Posted December 20, 2025 2 hours ago, singhvivek141 said: Usually cost goes up first...and then it comes down. Even the quality may be just serviceable at the first attempt...but constant improvement will optimize it. I take an example of Fold Phones by Samsung...their first fold was catastrophic. Now their 7th gen fold is in league of its own plus now theyre producing new iterations of tri fold with excellent hardware and software integration. Our SSBN program is another story. Plus as you mentioned, along with budget..even the export revenue too will play a key role. We have reached to exports of 23k Crores...with target of 50k CR by 2030...means more motivation and encouragement for our defense industries. I think biggest cost for navy is aircraft for the carriers. A scorpene costs 500 million usd. 26 rafale m cost something like 8 billion. They tried to get the mig29k to work but it did not work out. Its probably why this 40 billion can be a big amount of small. Its also why navy have shelved the nuclear aircraft carrier. The cost to arm it would be too much. They might change their plans with tejas mk2 (if it happens). I was reading that a submarine hunting corvette is now a days much cheaper than a submarine. singhvivek141 1
singhvivek141 Posted December 20, 2025 Posted December 20, 2025 31 minutes ago, G_B_ said: I think biggest cost for navy is aircraft for the carriers. A scorpene costs 500 million usd. 26 rafale m cost something like 8 billion. They tried to get the mig29k to work but it did not work out. Its probably why this 40 billion can be a big amount of small. Its also why navy have shelved the nuclear aircraft carrier. The cost to arm it would be too much. They might change their plans with tejas mk2 (if it happens). I was reading that a submarine hunting corvette is now a days much cheaper than a submarine. Indeed. With the skii jump and arrested recovery of jets in both the aircraft carriers , it take a huge load on the airframe and engine. Rafale M has been overpriced like hell, but sadly our options were pretty limited. F/A18 Hornet was even more expensive and Navy doesnt want the Naval Variant of LCA. Navy is eyeing TEDBF, which will be the twin engine indigenous fighter aircraft program which will run in parallel with AMCA and will be part of third aircraft carrier which will be 65k tonnes as against existing 45k carriers. G_B_ 1
G_B_ Posted December 20, 2025 Posted December 20, 2025 8 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said: Indeed. With the skii jump and arrested recovery of jets in both the aircraft carriers , it take a huge load on the airframe and engine. Rafale M has been overpriced like hell, but sadly our options were pretty limited. F/A18 Hornet was even more expensive and Navy doesnt want the Naval Variant of LCA. Navy is eyeing TEDBF, which will be the twin engine indigenous fighter aircraft program which will run in parallel with AMCA and will be part of third aircraft carrier which will be 65k tonnes as against existing 45k carriers. They will wait for this fighter before another aircraft carrier is comissioned. If the mig29k would be effective then was another story. I think india needs to focus on frigates and corvettes. Need 40 of these. The truth is given south korea and japan are massively upgrading their navies india are likely to face chinese and Pakistani subs in the indian ocean. Maintain 13 to 15 destoyers and 3 sircraft carriers. I was reading the koreans can produce this amount (40) in a year. They make 220 vessels a year. Mindblowing. India should 100% look at korea to accelate programs with a reasonble timeframe. singhvivek141 1
G_B_ Posted December 20, 2025 Posted December 20, 2025 Clarification. 40 corvettes and 40 frigates each. 25 p8 posiodon with drdo anti submarine missiles* this needs to be the core of the in in the 2030s. I think in south korea and japan navies rapidly arm up. IN should be very happy.
singhvivek141 Posted December 20, 2025 Posted December 20, 2025 3 hours ago, G_B_ said: Clarification. 40 corvettes and 40 frigates each. 25 p8 posiodon with drdo anti submarine missiles* this needs to be the core of the in in the 2030s. I think in south korea and japan navies rapidly arm up. IN should be very happy. I think India has currently a surface fleet of 150 ships, target is to bring it to 200 by 2030. That's corvettes, frigates, destroyers included. Submarine is where we lack, but better to upgrade the Sindhughosh series with help of Russia till Thyssenkrupp starts delivering us the submarines (early 2030s)...Probably once our surface ships are in 200+ range, focus will shift towards submarine development. As we've the indigenous capability to produce surface ships, there is also an influx of ASW (Anti Submarine Warfare) shops and P8I planes to target the enemy. Maybe, just a wild idea, create additional SSBNs and power it with non-nuclear missiles temporarily. A 200 MW reactor will give submarines enough legs (though with less silence) and hence can give us enough deterrence. I'm sure our Naval officers must have thought about this as well. G_B_ 1
Lone Wolf Posted December 21, 2025 Posted December 21, 2025 Pooks are rapidly expanding through Turks (de facto NAT0) and Chinks. They will get hold of VLS tech before or in early 2030 at this rate.
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