Lone Wolf Posted August 29 Posted August 29 (edited) Last 2-3 days almost every major Def Twitter account has been blackpilled lol Even Bharat Karnad isn't holding back Edited August 29 by Lone Wolf
bsriharsha Posted August 29 Posted August 29 (edited) 15 hours ago, G_B_ said: They get cut of proceeds i think. Russia will be up for brahmos er. Lots of clients. There was a plan to export t90 mk3 around the world. Wonder where that is at. Don't mind Russia getting some money. But at this point, It's the fighter jets. Russia , if it wants to have that relationship with India(w.r.t fighter jet engines) on that has to give the entire tech know how to India to localize. Edited August 29 by bsriharsha
singhvivek141 Posted August 29 Posted August 29 (edited) 4 hours ago, Lone Wolf said: Last 2-3 days almost every major Def Twitter account has been blackpilled lol Even Bharat Karnad isn't holding back You know what, we need another full scale war with Pakistan. Unless, we deplete this stockpile and are either forced to order new ones or use the homegrown option...the bribery and visa commissioning for babus and their children will continue to exist. Sadly Pakistan is even more stupid than us...they're more import dependent and hence the moment their stockpile will be dangerously low...foreign interventions will come up. At times, I feel, Chinese invasion perhaps wake us up better. Edited August 29 by singhvivek141 Lone Wolf and ravishingravi 2
Lone Wolf Posted August 29 Posted August 29 2 hours ago, singhvivek141 said: I feel, Chinese invasion perhaps wake us up better. Most of the comment sections these days on major accounts only talks about this scenario to wake up the MoD and corrupt genrols.
G_B_ Posted August 29 Posted August 29 4 hours ago, bsriharsha said: Don't mind Russia getting some money. But at this point, It's the fighter jets. Russia , if it wants to have that relationship with India(w.r.t fighter jet engines) on that has to give the entire tech know how to India to localize. Need to invest in su57 for that... As i said 100 su57 with indian radar + help in upgrading su30mki radar + help eith uttam radar for mig29. After fiasco that is mig29k for navy its clear engine and radar are weak points. Its also clear Hal plain sucks and needs help. Any semi competant org would have mass produced uttam for all our birds. Russia producing 50 jets a year. Of this the Su35 is primary being built for export to vietnam and iran etc. Su57 10 to 12 a year. If we order it will tip balance towards russia producing more su57. Have 30 in russia and 70 in india. But this is frought with getting american sanctions on us...so maybe wait for a dem house n senate in early 2027.
singhvivek141 Posted August 29 Posted August 29 1 hour ago, G_B_ said: Need to invest in su57 for that... As i said 100 su57 with indian radar + help in upgrading su30mki radar + help eith uttam radar for mig29. After fiasco that is mig29k for navy its clear engine and radar are weak points. Its also clear Hal plain sucks and needs help. Any semi competant org would have mass produced uttam for all our birds. Russia producing 50 jets a year. Of this the Su35 is primary being built for export to vietnam and iran etc. Su57 10 to 12 a year. If we order it will tip balance towards russia producing more su57. Have 30 in russia and 70 in india. But this is frought with getting american sanctions on us...so maybe wait for a dem house n senate in early 2027. Russia does have certain advantages. 1. They offer us greater amount of control on our missiles tech integration. Su30MKI is able to manage almost everything thrown at it...even Mig29k & Mig29UPG is quite versatile in terms of weapons integration. Just that Migs are medium weigh fighters so they have payload limitation. 2. Russian jets made by Sukhois...their payload, weapon carrying capacity and range is exemplary. It can perform sorties for a longer duration. 3. Their speed and dodging capability (dogfight) is unwatched. Mig21 was a speed monster, so is Su30MKI. It does required a skilled fighter pilot to tame it though. Su57 is another speed monster which if handled well can excel in dogfight. 4. Bigger jets come up with bigger nose...which means the radars will have more amount of T/R modules and they can see long distance. Virupaksha radar will have a range of 400-500 kms....currently Su30MKi has old radars which can only see till 80-120km...hence they need AWACS to guide them. Rafale can see till 160-180 km and hence it can see enemy aircraft early. 5. Only problem is the RCS, its massive. Even Su57 has big RCS ...hence its not a 5th gen fighter jet but more like 4.75 gen. Its better than Rafale though.
bsriharsha Posted August 30 Posted August 30 Not too worried about Su35's being given to Vietnam. The Su30MKI is for all intents a much more well rounded aircraft. We still need to integrate better radar to the SU30MKI
bsriharsha Posted August 30 Posted August 30 14 hours ago, G_B_ said: Need to invest in su57 for that... As i said 100 su57 with indian radar + help in upgrading su30mki radar + help eith uttam radar for mig29. After fiasco that is mig29k for navy its clear engine and radar are weak points. Its also clear Hal plain sucks and needs help. Any semi competant org would have mass produced uttam for all our birds. Russia producing 50 jets a year. Of this the Su35 is primary being built for export to vietnam and iran etc. Su57 10 to 12 a year. If we order it will tip balance towards russia producing more su57. Have 30 in russia and 70 in india. But this is frought with getting american sanctions on us...so maybe wait for a dem house n senate in early 2027. I wouldn't worry too much about the sanctions. If anything, the democrats will be more tough on anything India does w.r.t Russia rather than what the orange turd is.
singhvivek141 Posted August 30 Posted August 30 (edited) 1 hour ago, bsriharsha said: Not too worried about Su35's being given to Vietnam. The Su30MKI is for all intents a much more well rounded aircraft. We still need to integrate better radar to the SU30MKI He was probably talking about Su35 delivery speed as an example. Russian MIC is struggling to ramp up the orders....its a problem we are seeing with them since 1980s when their economic downfall started. They lost Antonov to Ukraine which was famous for making up massive airlifters. Anyway, Putin was bringing the economy back on track, but this war thwarted everything. They are still growing at 2-4% percent but its a war based economy now. Su57, IMO, if we can buy in limited numbers (say 3 squadrons) will be actually beneficial and avoid the pressure on AmCA to strictly follow the timelines and dependent on F414 engine. Any more squadrons of Su57 and we can effectively say bye bye to Tejas mk2. We had to buy Rafales coz of Safran, and I am fine with Rafale in general as they're a pretty good fighter jet in their own category. But F414 can really be a chokepoint for us, hence even if we can skip AMCA mk1 in exchange for Su57...it wont be a bad deal. AMCA mk2 is the one where the real change will begin. Edited August 30 by singhvivek141
G_B_ Posted August 30 Posted August 30 13 hours ago, singhvivek141 said: Russia does have certain advantages. 1. They offer us greater amount of control on our missiles tech integration. Su30MKI is able to manage almost everything thrown at it...even Mig29k & Mig29UPG is quite versatile in terms of weapons integration. Just that Migs are medium weigh fighters so they have payload limitation. 2. Russian jets made by Sukhois...their payload, weapon carrying capacity and range is exemplary. It can perform sorties for a longer duration. 3. Their speed and dodging capability (dogfight) is unwatched. Mig21 was a speed monster, so is Su30MKI. It does required a skilled fighter pilot to tame it though. Su57 is another speed monster which if handled well can excel in dogfight. 4. Bigger jets come up with bigger nose...which means the radars will have more amount of T/R modules and they can see long distance. Virupaksha radar will have a range of 400-500 kms....currently Su30MKi has old radars which can only see till 80-120km...hence they need AWACS to guide them. Rafale can see till 160-180 km and hence it can see enemy aircraft early. 5. Only problem is the RCS, its massive. Even Su57 has big RCS ...hence its not a 5th gen fighter jet but more like 4.75 gen. Its better than Rafale though. I posted stealth numbers in prior post of j20 su57 and f35. Of these only f35 (f22) can be considered stealth. J20 is semi stealth. Su57 probably has a median rcs of 0.5 to 1. Thats more rafale f5 range. See russia has used its airforce (and navy with subs being deployed in large numbers) in more defensive capacity. The army and missiles do the talking. This means their fighters though multirole will always be good interceptors and speed demons used to covering large distances (they have huge territory). With missiles now having greater ranges they are starting to be employed as artillary units of the air. Its no wonder usa has ordered more f15ex. We have issues with their engines and avionics radar due to our hot n humid weather. If the su57 has overcome its engine issues imo it would be ordered. Simple. If not then no. Within a decade radars and multi layered air defences will start picking up stealth jets. Operating in indian air space we need good ground and awacs support. Jets need to be carrying long range missiles be it air to air to air to ground
bsriharsha Posted August 30 Posted August 30 1 hour ago, singhvivek141 said: Su57, IMO, if we can buy in limited numbers (say 3 squadrons) will be actually beneficial and avoid the pressure on AmCA to strictly follow the timelines and dependent on F414 engine. Any more squadrons of Su57 and we can effectively say bye bye to Tejas mk2. We would still need to have Su57 regardless of whether we go on with the AMCA. Buy some 9-12 squadrons of Su-57 with the necessary technology transfer. 3 squadrons to be sent immediately and then the rest to be assembled and built in India within a strict 5-6 year timeframe. I agree that we shouldn't be treating Su57 as a stealth aircraft anymore than the J20 is a true stealth fighter. What we need to do is get more understandings of the 5th gen fighters before we go on and build the 6th gen one. As of now , migrating to 5th gen and then going to the 6th gen is a waste of time. Get most of the technology and then integrate with what we have already learnt and go directly to the 6th gen. singhvivek141 1
bsriharsha Posted August 30 Posted August 30 Tejas Mk2 is essentially a learning exercise right now. Unless we can have 3-4 squadrons ready in 2-3 years time. singhvivek141 1
G_B_ Posted August 30 Posted August 30 India has joined as dialogue partner of gacp. Good. Only 6th gen outsude china which will be delivered 2035
singhvivek141 Posted August 30 Posted August 30 5 hours ago, G_B_ said: I posted stealth numbers in prior post of j20 su57 and f35. Of these only f35 (f22) can be considered stealth. J20 is semi stealth. Su57 probably has a median rcs of 0.5 to 1. Thats more rafale f5 range. See russia has used its airforce (and navy with subs being deployed in large numbers) in more defensive capacity. The army and missiles do the talking. This means their fighters though multirole will always be good interceptors and speed demons used to covering large distances (they have huge territory). With missiles now having greater ranges they are starting to be employed as artillary units of the air. Its no wonder usa has ordered more f15ex. We have issues with their engines and avionics radar due to our hot n humid weather. If the su57 has overcome its engine issues imo it would be ordered. Simple. If not then no. Within a decade radars and multi layered air defences will start picking up stealth jets. Operating in indian air space we need good ground and awacs support. Jets need to be carrying long range missiles be it air to air to air to ground Russian engines are inferior to Western ones ... Recently our desi engineers extended the overhaul hours of AL31 from 2000 to 2500 hours...while Western jets have a overhaul period after 4000 to 4500 hours. But what we lose in engine maintenance, we gain in raw horse power and control. From weapon carrying POV as well...Su30MKI is a heavyweight champion and Su57 too has the same weapon carrying capacity. Rafale doesn't come anywhere near it. Where Rafale excels is that its the only "advanced" fighter jet in our Air Force. Jaguars have been upgraded but its a small jet...Su30MkI non upgradation is a massive blunder and it needs the protection of Rafale EW spectra. However, Su57 has upgraded avionics and can hit speeds of 1.3-1.4 Mach without using its afterburner, plus it has 3D thrust vectoring hence offering it greater maneuvering during case of a dogfight. Its range is longer than Su30MKI and hence can do the flow from Sulur Airbase (Coimbatore) to Andaman airbase in one sortie....other may need refueling (except Rafale & MKI). Su57 isnt true stealth, as you mentioned. But it gives the raw horse power to our IAF till the time AMCA matures. Like MKI it can carry Astra mk3 and mayve in future mk4 variants as well which can strike 500km or more. G_B_ 1
singhvivek141 Posted August 30 Posted August 30 5 hours ago, bsriharsha said: Tejas Mk2 is essentially a learning exercise right now. Unless we can have 3-4 squadrons ready in 2-3 years time. Tejas mk1a is actually a replacement for Mig21, Jaguars, Mirage 2000 and Mig29UPG...collectively theese 4 jets are 10-12 squadrons which we have lost/we will lose in 8-10 years. So its just a break even. Tejas mk2 and Rafales will drive the momentum to increase the squadron capacity, while AMCA & upgraded Su30MKI will increase it multi folds (although we will lose some MKIs which arrived in early 00s and the airframes are getting old).
G_B_ Posted August 30 Posted August 30 Since sindoor air force has induced 6 netra mk1a (400km range at 240 degrees) and probably has had r37 and meteor deliveries ongoing. In addition another s400 unit has been made operational. I heard even the spice kits of israel are now integrated. Pak playbook for next round of action hinges on drones. The bvr play is now redundant. Similarly for india i think kusha 150km needs to be made operational asap. Dont think our 105mm guns and othee artillary can be used as the first line. They will try to overrun ground based assets with drones singhvivek141 1
singhvivek141 Posted August 30 Posted August 30 1 hour ago, G_B_ said: Since sindoor air force has induced 6 netra mk1a (400km range at 240 degrees) and probably has had r37 and meteor deliveries ongoing. In addition another s400 unit has been made operational. I heard even the spice kits of israel are now integrated. Pak playbook for next round of action hinges on drones. The bvr play is now redundant. Similarly for india i think kusha 150km needs to be made operational asap. Dont think our 105mm guns and othee artillary can be used as the first line. They will try to overrun ground based assets with drones Yes, Pakistan is relying heavily on the cheap dronery from Turkiye and other "friendly" nations. It will try to keep the war air based coz it feels thats where it can challenge the Indian Air force. For Drone warfare, we will continue to use Shellka, Pechora & Bofors guns...but the key vector will be Akash Tarang energy beam. This low cost energy beam can not only jam the drones, but also perform the kill as well. These energy beams can be used on our destroyers, frigates and corvettes...so that some of the VLS can be spared for offensive capabilities of Nirbhay & Brahmos. Our Air Defense sector is performing quite well, we are building the things at a rapid pace. Just that we need to sharpen our offensive capabilities as well.
Lone Wolf Posted August 30 Posted August 30 (edited) Russian delivery timeline and production capability is all over the place plus the obvious tech issues. I hope GoI is considering everything before going ahead this time. Project Kusha might be matured by the time this comes along. Edited August 30 by Lone Wolf singhvivek141 1
singhvivek141 Posted August 30 Posted August 30 6 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said: Russian delivery timeline and production capability is all over the place plus the obvious tech issues. I hope GoI is considering everything before going ahead this time. Project Kusha might be matured by the time this comes along. Yeah, thats the only issue with Russians. Post the disintegration, they have lost their skilled labour and production capability. Thats where, India should come in and take the "advantage". Russia needs money, India can bring it for them, if we get the ToT (which it seems now Russia is willing to provide for many such equipments).
G_B_ Posted August 30 Posted August 30 3 hours ago, singhvivek141 said: Yes, Pakistan is relying heavily on the cheap dronery from Turkiye and other "friendly" nations. It will try to keep the war air based coz it feels thats where it can challenge the Indian Air force. For Drone warfare, we will continue to use Shellka, Pechora & Bofors guns...but the key vector will be Akash Tarang energy beam. This low cost energy beam can not only jam the drones, but also perform the kill as well. These energy beams can be used on our destroyers, frigates and corvettes...so that some of the VLS can be spared for offensive capabilities of Nirbhay & Brahmos. Our Air Defense sector is performing quite well, we are building the things at a rapid pace. Just that we need to sharpen our offensive capabilities as well. Akash tarang is integrated?
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