Ram Posted November 30, 2008 Posted November 30, 2008 All of our eyes have been trained on the events in the Taj, Trident and Oberoi Hotels. Amidst all this, the most chilling and revengeful part of this operation has been the targeting of 'Nariman House', which is occupied by Jews and serves as a Jewish Congregation point in Mumbai ( Mumbai guys, is that an accurate description of the place?). Its been reported that a number of the residents there were held hostage and then murdered gruesomely. We all knew the Islamists hated the Jews, but this kind of selective targeting is really shocking. If I may take the liberty to be a bit partisan at this point, the attack on Nariman house has, if anything, bolstered India's case a lot more.
The Outsider Posted November 30, 2008 Posted November 30, 2008 Targeting Israeli citizens might be the biggest mistake they have made - Israel is not going to take this sitting down. This is the highest number of Israeli casualties outside Israel since Munich. This is a golden chance for our security agencies to learn and work with the Israeli and American secret service to take out some of the culprits sitting in Pakistan.
fineleg Posted November 30, 2008 Posted November 30, 2008 The ineffectiveness and delayed no-action by some of the cops http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7756616.stm Survivor 1: One employee had been working for us for the last eight years, and the other had been working with us for three months. One of them got hit by the bullet while he was serving clients, the other got hit when he was running out of the exit. When I came out of the exit, I saw a number of bodies lying on the street. The police arrived after 20 minutes and left. They seemed to be clueless. Survivor 2: I had left my mobile phone on the table in the rush. My wife called from Calcutta and it was picked up by a policeman. He told her that the owner of the phone had been caught up in a gun attack on the cafe. She panicked, began calling up people. I only got in touch with her on a land line after I reached my hotel. When I stepped outside, I saw the two men walking down the by-lane firing indiscriminately. The police came pretty late and had no help to offer. By this time, the two men had taken over the Taj hotel. It was the scariest moment in my life. Survivor 3: VICTORIA TERMINUS aka CST Train Station At the end of 10 minutes, there was a pile of bodies in the blood-splattered waiting hall. We helped put the injured and dead in passing vehicles to take to the hospital. There was nobody else to help. The police came after half and hour, made enquiries and left. They offered no resistance to the two men who shot scores of people and walked away. It's a scary thought. There is no security left in India. There is no value on life. The above "no value on life" is what MM and shwetabh have mentioned elsewhere too.
Tapioca Posted November 30, 2008 Posted November 30, 2008 They offered no resistance to the two men who shot scores of people and walked away. To be fair, our policemen are probably equipped with a gun that they have to manually load after firing once. What chance did they have against AK-56 ?
Gambit Posted November 30, 2008 Posted November 30, 2008 According to some docs, the Jewish victims were subjected to intense and horrific torture before they were murdered.
Tapioca Posted November 30, 2008 Posted November 30, 2008 According to some docs' date=' the Jewish victims were subjected to intense and horrific torture before they were murdered.[/quote'] From rediff : The other doctor, who had also conducted the post-mortem of the victims, said: "Of all the bodies, the Israeli victims bore the maximum torture marks. It was clear that they were killed on the 26th itself. It was obvious that they were tied up and tortured before they were killed. It was so bad that I do not want to go over the details even in my head again," he said. Corroborating the doctors' claims about torture was the information that the Intelligence Bureau had about the terror plan. "During his interrogation, Ajmal Kamal said they were specifically asked to target the foreigners, especially the Israelis," an IB source said. It is also said that the Israeli hostages were killed on the first day as keeping them hostage for too long would have focused too much international attention. "They also might have feared the chances of Israeli security agencies taking over the operations at the Nariman House," he reasoned. I hope Mossad is also listening.
Dhondy Posted November 30, 2008 Posted November 30, 2008 Bombay police exposed. Until Karkare arrived, these guys feared for their own lives. In fact, Karkare's two colleagues, one of them a terrorism expert, didn't even get out of the car. They were murdered in their seats watching the action. The terrorists murdered Karkare and the other two, commandeered their police car and drove to the Taj without any resistance. No attempts at interception, nothing. Like going for a sundown stroll in Broadway. Would be unheard of in any other country. It's not the manual rifles, Bombay police lacked balls.
Dhondy Posted November 30, 2008 Posted November 30, 2008 It is also said that the Israeli hostages were killed on the first day as keeping them hostage for too long would have focused too much international attention. "They also might have feared the chances of Israeli security agencies taking over the operations at the Nariman House," he reasoned. That, I fear, Tapioca is India's attempt to explain away the goof-up in sending in commandos into Nariman house in a gung ho fashion without making sure that the hostages wouldn't be compromised. Translates into "The hostages were dead anyway. We didn't precipitate their death".
gs Posted November 30, 2008 Posted November 30, 2008 Bombay police exposed. Until Karkare arrived, these guys feared for their own lives. In fact, Karkare's two colleagues, one of them a terrorism expert, didn't even get out of the car. They were murdered in their seats watching the action. The terrorists murdered Karkare and the other two, commandeered their police car and drove to the Taj without any resistance. No attempts at interception, nothing. Like going for a sundown stroll in Broadway. Would be unheard of in any other country. It's not the manual rifles, Bombay police lacked balls. And lacked training to handle such situations which led them to think the situation was beyond them. Let us for a minute assume that the police constables engaged the terrorists with their 1930s vintage Lee Enfield rifles. Though highly unlikely let us also assume that they got lucky and gunned down one or two terrorists, but then surely they would have been no match for the AK 56 and hand grenades. They would just added themselves to the list of casualties and their lower middle-class families would have to fend for themselves. Plus the Indian public/media/govt is so shortsighted and they would be forgotten in 2 weeks time after the politicians extract every ounce of political mileage out of it. I am not saying this is right, but I am pretty certain these thoughts ran through their minds before they chose the path of self-preservation - can you blame them for the years of neglect and apathy shown by the govt towards the police force?!?
Bumper Posted November 30, 2008 Posted November 30, 2008 You cant blame the police. The three cops who laid their lives -- Karkare, Salaskar, Kamte are as good as they come. All of them are IPS officers with high degree of integrity and commitment, backed by an impressive resume. Sadly, neither of them were armed or trained for these types of encounters. In India, cops are merely meant for local law enforcement. They are not trained to fight terrorists, they are not armed to fight terrorists. Salaskar has killed 78 gundas in encounters before.He knows a thing or two abut encounters. To me his loss is the biggest of the three. Even he wasnt fully prepared for this type of operation. Bottom line is that this is not a typical police operation, where you plan in advance for the scene and go there with an agenda. Here, the cops did not know who they were fighting, how many people they were fighting, where these people were and what the agenda of these terrorists were. Infact, the cops must have got a 5 minute notice to get to the Cama hospital & must therefore have underestimated the importance of planning for this operation. They all went to the scene with pistols (no bullet proof vests, no automated weapons) and got nailed. Hope we have learnt an important lesson or two from this loss.
seedhi Posted November 30, 2008 Posted November 30, 2008 You cant blame the police. The three cops who laid their lives -- Karkare, Salaskar, Kamte are as good as they come. All of them are IPS officers with high degree of integrity and commitment, backed by an impressive resume. Sadly, neither of them were armed or trained for these types of encounters. In India, cops are merely meant for local law enforcement. They are not trained to fight terrorists, they are not armed to fight terrorists. Salaskar has killed 78 gundas in encounters before.He knows a thing or two abut encounters. To me his loss is the biggest of the three. Even he wasnt fully prepared for this type of operation. Bottom line is that this is not a typical police operation, where you plan in advance for the scene and go there with an agenda. Here, the cops did not know who they were fighting, how many people they were fighting, where these people were and what the agenda of these terrorists were. Infact, the cops must have got a 5 minute notice to get to the Cama hospital & must therefore have underestimated the importance of planning for this operation. They all went to the scene with pistols (no bullet proof vests, no automated weapons) and got nailed. Hope we have an important lesson or two from this loss. This is no excuse to IGNORE available intelligence on the attacks. It was well known that the hotels were a target, then why wasnt the security ramped up. Previously captured LeT terrorists had already confessed to the existence of such a plot. Mumbai cops ignored LeT terrorists' confessions LUCKNOW: The mayhem in the Maximum City could have been averted had Mumbai Police taken the February 10 inputs from the Anti-Terrorism Squad and the Special Task Force of Uttar Pradesh police seriously. After the attack on a CRPF camp in Rampur, six Lashkar-e-Taiba terrorists, including a Pakistani national, were arrested in Lucknow on February 10 last year while boarding a train to Mumbai. Their interrogation revealed LeT's plan to target key installations in Mumbai, including the Taj, CST and seven other places. TOI Lucknow edition published a report highlighting the details on February 11, 2008. Mumbai Police, however, didn't even seek the remand of the arrested, saying there was no criminal case pending against them in Mumbai, even though a two-member Mumbai team had come to Lucknow to question the six. In the story, TOI, quoting top UP ATS and STF officials, said two of the arrested people Faheem and Mohammed Shareef had revealed during interrogation that three of their aides Sabauddin Ahmad of Madhubani in Bihar, Amar Singh of Gujranwala in Pakistan and Abu Sama of Kashmir were in India to carry out terror attacks in Mumbai. Faheem was based in Mumbai and had a fake Pakistani passport , which showed his name as Hammad Hassan, son of Bashir Hassan from Rawalpindi. "The terrorists had multiple targets,'' STF SSP Amitabh Yash had then said. The terrorists had done a recce in Mumbai and prepared maps of the vital installations to be targetted. They had even rented an accommodation near Nariman Point, which was being used as the local base in Mumbai, sources had then told TOI. The investigators also said the accused had confessed to their involvement in the attack on Indian Institute of Science in Bangalore. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Mumbai_cops_ignored_LeT_terrorists_confessions/articleshow/3774025.cms
Bumper Posted November 30, 2008 Posted November 30, 2008 This is no excuse to IGNORE available intelligence on the attacks. It was well known that the hotels were a target, then why wasnt the security ramped up. Previously captured LeT terrorists had already confessed to the existence of such a plot. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Mumbai_cops_ignored_LeT_terrorists_confessions/articleshow/3774025.cms Two diff topics. 1) Intelligence failure 2) Underprepared cops (1) is a problem, a huge problem, whereas (2) is a limitation of our system. You cant blame Salaskar for intelligence failure, thats not his job.
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